Just thought I'd post an update to my saga to see if anyone has any thoughts for me. I've got to say, I am the poster-child for Harley techniques.<P>Where I last left off in my version of "As the Stomach Turns" was after 18 months of separation, I finally provoked my infidel husband into mailing me divorce papers (he informed me via e-mail). When I received them, I nicely told him that I would gladly sign the waiver of service if he would talk to me LIVE about the problems of the marriage so I could learn and do better in the future (I still don't know what the issues are, never mind why he's sure they're not solvable). He said he would. I then preceded to schedule talks with him twice, he agreed to come, and then was a no-show. TWICE. I told him that the next talk would be for him to schedule and I would not sign the papers until we had. He said that was fine.<P>Well, that was two months ago. No process server has shown up at my door. We still haven't talked, even though we're probably together 15 hours each week. We play tennis, we go on bike rides, we swim, we eat dinner together about twice per week, and continue to get along great, so long as SAFE subjects are on the agenda. It's obvious that he feels safe and comfortable with me now. He's also been a much better and more involved father. He joined me at our son's parent-teacher conference. He stills doesn't take our toddler, but he's been trying to work that relationship. He's much more affectionate towards her now and asks how she's doing regularly. He gives me support money on time without me asking and I'm sitting on all of the community assets myself, which are substantial. He's never asked for any of it.<P>Still, he's not accountable for his time and just last weekend took off for an undisclosed destination with undisclosed companionship (I assume the same OW). I feel that even asking him what he does on a weekend is too personal and might scare him away. He was too frightened to ask me about tax exemptions live and also sent a request by e-mail. He is very gentle and helpful when around, and definitely tip-toes around me. I am convinced that fear is his main motivator in his current behavior.<P>So, now that I need to start measuring the separation in years instead of months (it's 20 months now), I'm just wondering whether it's ever going to end.<P>My friends and family all think I'm completely nuts. I have started to lie to them, which I don't like. I am clearly trying to "win" my cheating husband back by appealing to his emotional needs and not love-busting, pure Harley. Everyone says there's absolutely no reason for my husband to give up the great deal he has now. He can do whatever he wants whenever he wants, I take care of the family great, and whenever he wants to be around, he gets treated like a king, doing all the things he loves. He never has to be accountable for anything with anyone. The kids are doing great. This is completely true.<P>I was in Plan B for the five months from Jan '99 through May '99. I can never do it again. It was great for me emotionally and I got strong. But my husband nearly completely dropped the kids. He never saw the baby and barely interacted with our son. I can't do that to them again, especially now that he's acting like a caring parent once more. It's not an option.<P>So the way I see it, I just continue to truck on like this until something gives. I had given myself a two year deadline but frankly, I don't see myself ever stopping. I'm not losing my commitment. I don't think it's based on love, either. Unless my husband becomes really hurtful, as he was during the first three months of the separation (but not the last 17), I'm probably never going to stop. No wonder my friends and family are worried about me.<P>I've been around this board a very long time and have seen very few instances like mine. Any advice will be welcome.

I don't know how much I can add. My wife is the same as your husband. As long as we talk about the "safe" stuff, she is OK. But I have to schedule the meetings to talk about the divorce and such, and she usually calls and cancels because something always comes up.<P>You are to be commended for doing Plan A for as long as you have.<P>My personal opinion (not in keeping with MB principles) is that you should proceed with the divorce. You need protection, financial at least, for yourself and your children. If he goes south, who knows what will happen.<P>You say your committment is not based on love. What is it based on? I think that this is a question that you need to answer. IMHO, it is not good to be in a holding pattern for years.<P>That's about it from me. Good Luck to you and take care of those babies.

grandpabri:<P>Thank you for your thoughts. I don't envy anyone in a situation where their spouse won't communicate what the problems are and is unwilling to look for solutions. It leaves us nearly helpless.<P>There's no point financially in divorcing him. I have all the assets and I moved them under my name only. I have a child support order from the DA's office so he can't skip on payments. In this state, the separation date concept is in play, so I won't get hit with any debt after that date. If I divorce him, I have to turn over half the community assets to him. He lives in a crummy apartment while I live in a huge house. I outearn him 2 to 1. According to my attorney, I would have to pay him $800/month spousal support for the next 7 years (half the length of the marriage) if he pushed the issue. I have the better deal as I see it, and no financial reason to accelerate things legally.<P>As far as leaving myself in limbo like this, I'm pretty clear that it's time for me to start investing in my own counseling. On the positive side, it's based on my commitment to the vows I took as well as my beliefs about what's best for the children. But I'd be remiss if I didn't say that it probably also has alot to do with fear.<P>I'm glad to meet you but sorry you're here (if that makes sense).<BR>

Seems as if the financial side of things are great for you. I always worry about the children.<P>My wife had been the primary wage earner, since I am in graduate school. When she decided to leave, she tried to starve me out so that I would have to quit school.<P>Luckily (or unluckily) I had been hit by a car the year before, so I still have some settlement money that will get me through the class part anyway.<P>I think counseling is a good idea. I know my counselor has been very good for me. I also have our 6 year old in counseling, and it seems to be helping him.<P>Good Luck to you

Hi Distressed, glad to see your update, even if the news is much the same. Our first separation was also 21 months ago. Of course, my H has come and...and left... (repeat often) this separation is the longest at 4 months, so though I've been successful in getting him back in the home, I can't keep him here. And he sounds like pretty much the same guy you're hanging out with. He likes to do stuff with me, see me often, he's nice, he brings me gifts. But he does not want to talk about the past, or the issues. If the talk gets "ugly" which seems to include at times, my sharing how I feel about certain things, he's outta here.<P>It's like a wall we can't climb or blast through. And it is so tall and so wide that dismantling it stone by stone is rather daunting...You know that feeling?<P>Go for the counseling. (says me, who hasn't been going on her own for several months ). Just make sure that if you want your marriage that the counselor will support that under the conditions you have. Even my pastor has told me there has to be a limit. My sister tells me I have taken the limit of what I should. "You deserve so much better." So I know about the way one can start to not quite tell the truth to friends and confidants.<P>Take care, Distressed. We all have our own time tables, and it is true, once you get used to living like this, it doesn't seem as awful as it used to...and you can wear a T shirt, shorts & socks to bed without worrying that you should be attracting your spouse. <P>So, am I giving you advice? Probably not. Just telling you that if you feel ok the majority of time, even if "ok" isn't exactly the greatest, mountain-top happiness, you are ok. Use the time to processs your anger, hurt, betrayal and heal, even though the situation is ongoing.<P>Take care.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Hi Distressed -<P>You and Lor have me laughing!!! You with the "As the Stomach Turns" and Lor with not worrying about what to wear to bed!!!! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!<P>Sooooooo True!!!!!<P>In some ways, I am liking this being alone thing!!!! ONLY in some ways, though.....I love H and want him home - that part hasn't changed. Just don't want the alien he is now back!!!<P>As far as your situation....to be honest I am very envious. (Yours too, Lor!!)<P>You are both getting a lot of interaction which is a MAJOR step.<P>Mine, of course - is just a Whack-A-Doodle so nothing is consistant!! <P>I really don't think that we are holding ourselves in some bad place like a few people who care about us may feel. They have no clue really and just know that we have been hurt. They don't like it and want the source of the hurt gone. That's all......<P>WE know all the factors, processes, cause and effects, etc. that play into this.....we also know our feelings best and what we can live with in pursuit of the goals we have in mind. <P>If you think about it, we aren't REALLY living all that differently then "life" anyway.....the only difference is H in or H out. We are actually becoming stronger and passing one helluva test on our limitations and perseverence for the sake of our beliefs/values. That's a GOOD THING!!!!<P>For some reason your H's are comfortable with you both...just not to the point yet of total recommittment. WHY NOT? Who knows.....BUT the fact that neither H's are pushing for divorce is something that is truly a wonderful thing. At least they aren't dealing with the "can't go back now" garbage that my H seems to be in the midst of. <P>I had a conversation with my H a few weeks back - actually it was the first "intimate issue" conversation we've had in a long time. I asked him what he meant when he said that we will have a much more wonderful relationship when we are divorced...he said that we just will. I then asked what I will be to him then? He says "What do you mean?" I said....a sister, friend, what?" He said "you're my wife!!" Me - "I know that now I am your wife, but what about after?" He looked at me like I WAS NUTS and......<P>You know what this man said? Are you sitting? <P>He said " Sheba, you will ALWAYS be my like my wife"!!!!!!<P>How do you like that? Great, huh? And he's pushing the divorce through!!!!!<P>Talk about confused and wanting it all!!<BR>Mine thinks that he is going to have a wife AFTER a divorce!!!! <P>My point in telling you this is that until our H's find a way out of their confusion, it is best to do nothing towards a permanent solution to the situation. Yes, at times we can be construed by others as enabling or accepting of their behaviors, but WE KNOW that we are not!!! We are only working towards what we want for US!!<P>I wanted to address two things that you said Distressed, one was about his not showing up when he said...are they for planned things with the kids? Actually it doesn't matter what it was for - if he said he would show and didn't, the result is the same. Perhaps in a non-lovebuster way, you can let him know that this is unacceptable for the welfare of you and the children and can create a "boundary" in this area? Think on it....perhaps we can get some ideas of the best MB way to do this. Have you ever talked to Steve? I forget.....<P>The second thing you said that stood out is about not being based on love...what did you mean by that? I think we need to talk about that a bit.....don't you?<BR>I am very concerned where that is coming from. <P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<BR>

Grandpabri - I realize that I am extremely fortunate in my situation. I have a great home and no financial worries, the most wonderful children on earth (OK, a little biased), parents close by, wonderful friends, and a great job. I focus on this often to help keep me centered. It's this conscious realization of just how fortunate I am that's kept me out of depression this entire time.<P>Lor, I do feel quite a bit more than "OK" the majority of the time. Every few weeks something happens that provokes a temporary angry or negative reaction in me, but it passes within a few days. I've trained myself never to act on those raw emotions. When they pass, I'm always back in the same place, here, trying to work things out. You and I are quite a bit alike in our approach to this problem, but you've been much more successful in getting your husband to communicate (even in the limited fashion he does it). Thank you again for the ongoing great support.<P>I really have a mixed reaction to the counseling. In a way, I'm afraid to go. I did go early on and it was helpful in my adjustment. But now, I'm afraid that if I really start to understand where this extreme (some would say irrational) commitment is coming from, I'll stop working the marriage. Does that make sense? To be more specific, if it really becomes clear to me that it's based on fear, I may feel challenged to confront that fear. Then I'll probably be done.<P>Sheba, why do you have to have such a high IQ and ask such tough questions? First, yes I think it's good that we have all this positive interaction. It's taken a very long time, but I do think "safe and comfortable" has been achieved and I also think that my "account in his lovebank" is now open for deposits. Even better, dad is back!<P>The not showing up really wasn't about kid commitments. What happened was I had scheduled time to talk after he was supposed to return our son. Instead of talking, he just dropped our son at the door. I went out to his car and called him on it the second time (highly unusual for me to do and definitely a lovebuster, but I couldn't let it go like that). That's when I told him that it was fine if he didn't want to talk then, but it was up to him to schedule a time when he did want to talk, and that I'm not signing anything until he did. That was the end of the divorce process. I wonder what he told his attorney.<P>The entire "am I in love" issue is quite confusing to me at this stage. I'm not clear that I am, and I'm also not clear that whether I am has anything to do with my level of commitment. I do believe that I am CAPABLE of rebuilding both love and trust with my husband if conditions changed (i.e. he stopped the affair and made an effort to meet my needs). Really, I'm not sure that anyone in this situation could really have that passionate, in-love feeling towards someone that's done this to them with absolutely no acknowledgement, remorse or effort towards atonement. Maybe what I have is the other kind of love, the mature kind based on commitment, caring, and forgiveness. Sheba, this is maybe a bit scary to me (back to my counseling comments), but I just don't give up on things. I never have and almost everything has always worked out for me. I may never give up on this either.<P>Better go now. Thank you all for the always great insights.

Distressed,<P>I would just encourage you to keep on doing what you are doing. It is working. 20 months in comparison to a lifetime and a history is nothing.<P>Some situations are longer than others. You gotta work with what you got, and your situation is improving.<P>It is improving. You are stronger, your husband is starting to come around and do things with you, the only problem I see right now is that you've been away from MB and listening to non-MB'ers! Learn the smile and the "I'm okay your okay" garb with non-Mb'ers! <P>You are okay. The only doubt you have is other people's opinions! 15 hours a week together is incredible! <P>It sounds like your husband isn't one to make changes - it sounds like OW is. I'm sure she is going to start demanding and expecting more on her end eventually, or get bored and move on.<P>You just keep up your status quo "harley" behavior, and let her blow it. She's bound to cave sooner or later. <P>Hang in there, and check in more often!<BR>TNT

Sheba--your whack-a-doodle still thinks YOU will be his wife after divorce? How nice for him. Won't the surprise just be splendid?<P>Distresssed--I think the term "love" may get to bother a lot of us. For a couple months, let's see, AFTER he moved out the last time & I started divorce paperwork, my H said he loved me all the time. And I let there be that uncomfortable silence or barrelled into a new topic. But I do love him. I have loved him for nearly 2 decades. And when he went to Plan A...he put some "in love" back in my love bank. If he'd kept it up at that pace, I'd be crazy/wild for him right now. (I guess I'm just at the "crazy" now, maybe the "wild" is on the way?) I think the Greeks had it right with more words for love:<P>epithumia--a strong desire of any kind<BR>eros--romantic, passionate, sentimental<BR>storge--old-shoe relationship with natural affection, sence of belonging<BR>phileo--cherishes, but expects a response<BR>agape--choice of will, no dependence on feeling<P>All these belong in a marital love, but we can see why we can feel "love", even when there has ceased to be a reason.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Sheba, I can't believe I didn't comment on what your husband said about you being his wife after divorce. What on earth could he be thinking here? Certainly nothing close to the realm of the rational. Might he really think that you are willing to be his wife forever, even while he pursues others without a commitment towards you? I think you really made your point about their confusion with this one.<P>Regarding our friends and family, I think you are exactly right. They only want to see us stop suffering, and they perceive that suffering to be linked to our failure to "move on" (meaning date others). My mother has said on several occasions that a "smart, attractive, and interesting person like you shouldn't be shackled like this". After a few bad interactions, she now tries to be quiet. It's hard for us both. But I know that if she and my father knew about the high amount of interaction they would be much more upset than they are. So I don't tell them, but I'm always afraid my son will say the wrong thing around them. I could never ask him to lie about it so I live on the edge.<P>Trustntruth, I feel I have no choice but to continue what I'm doing. Really, I can't see how any of my alternatives will help the situation. It's just been going on for so long that it's easy to concluce it's not working. I want to believe that it is working, but I'm afraid to do so. It's easier to be cynical and protect myself from future hurts. I've had a lot of false hope in the past. Over time, holding on to faith with the MB approach gets harder and harder since most people I interact with completely disagree with this approach. My early supporters have all left the fold. No one thinks my husband deserves me or the kids. Even his own parents and brother think that way. You're right though, if I hung around more and starting reading my books again, I'd probably find more inspiration. Good suggestion and thank you.<P>Lor, I guess we do love our husbands per at least some of the definitions. Maybe one day it will be the passionate kind again. I hope so and I also hope it will be reciprocated.<P>Goodnight all.<BR>