In this so called age of enlightenment, information and progress, suddenly there seems to be an epidemic of VAST proportions!<P>On this forum alone there seems to be a new member or two, every day, coming to find comfort and advise on how to cope with the most horrendous thing that can happen in a marriage. <P>The Wayward Spouse has had an affair, fling, one night stand, and a few months later, an OC is born. What is so incredible is that the OW usually KEEP the innocent victim in order to manipulate or to garner income shares and in the hope of the WS to leave the family for OW.<P>It astounds me that this is becoming commonplace. <P>I my opinion, anyone over the age of 18 or 21 know how to take care of their body and know what to do to prevent unwanted pregnancy. <BR>There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for this to happen anymore. <BR>There is endless birth control available, endless information available, endless other options, but, unfortunately, morals, decency and doing the right thing DID end. There is no respect anymore for marriage or families.<P>The women who allow themselves to become pregnant from a married man has to be the MOST evil, the MOST selfish, the MOST uncaring, destructive person on the face of the earth. Not only does she go into a pregnancy knowing full well that there will be no 'daddy' for 'baby', but, she doesn't care. She doesn't care that so many lives will be changed forever as long as her immediate needs are gratified. UGH. I cannot stand it anymore.<P>There's too many of us here in this position. This thing shouldn't be happening so often to so many. It is scaring me that our society is so sick and so reckless. <P>I am incredulous.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

My sentiments exactly. But for the grace of God, I would be in this category. My H was forced to admit in Jan. his year-long EA had become PA when OW told him she was pregnant. My world was turned upside down. <P>Two months later H told me she had "lost the baby." No details...maybe miscarriage, maybe abortion, maybe never pregnant in the first place. Who knows? <P>My nightmare hasn't ended--he's still seeing her--but it's not the sheer hell I endured during those 2 mos.<P>The point is, this woman is 35 yrs old, fairly well-educated, had no kids, has been married for 15 yrs--and now lets herself get pregnant with a MM who has 2 small children at home and a wife who loves him??? All justified because she's "in love" with him? <P>Dear God, how utterly selfish and coldhearted -- and yes, EVIL, can a person be? Of course, the WS is equally, if not more, to blame.<P>I'm sorry, Catnip, you struck a nerve and I just had to vent. God had mercy on all of us, and she is no longer pregnant -- but I'm still incredulous...how can someone be so ignorant in this day and age? Maybe it's the fantasy thing taken to an extreme....

I can empathize. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The women who allow themselves to become pregnant from a married man has to be the MOST evil, the MOST selfish, the MOST uncaring, destructive person on the face of the earth. Not only does she go into a pregnancy knowing full well that there will be no 'daddy' for 'baby', but, she doesn't care. She doesn't care that so many lives will be changed forever as long as her immediate needs are gratified.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I think they are desperate to keep the MM, and that is why they do it. Insecurity, and maybe becaue they DON'T have the commitment they desire. <P>TNT

When two people, a man and woman have sex, they are both responsible. But it is the woman who gets pregnant. But the both had sex. Drunk or whatever, they both had sex and they both know what can happen if you have sex. I have never been faced with having to decide to give a baby up for adoption so I'm not going to say what anyone else should do. I do know its got to be really hard to do since I am a mother. What it comes down to is that a man had sex with a woman who is not his wife. He knows sex can mean pregnancy. That is every single bit as evil as the womans part.<P>Del

It seems to go right along with their mindset. They all seem to act like they are 16 and don't believe in that pregnancy stuff us "mature" types talk about.<P>

The biggest problem I have is the way things are handled. Yes it takes two to tango. BUT, she had several choices, and those choices would have been made without the input of the man. But now that SHE decided to have the baby, he is supposed to pay up. But we would never expect to force her into an abortion, or an adoption. The first decision was made by both, the following decisions were made by her. Why is it that the law is made to encourage women to have children under any circumstances. I planned my child, until I could financially support her, and give her a loving home. In my situation the OW has two children, same situation. And she worries that her children won't have fathers. Not that I would ever be in this situation, but if I got pregnant by a married man. Then I sure as h**l wouldn't expect anything from that man. I would look at my options, and if I went through the pregnancy, and had the child, I would be responsible for that child. Because I chose to keep the child, no one else did. I think there should be a scale for this situation. If you kill someone there are dozens of ways to say that, Murder 1, Manslaughter, etc. And there are victims in those situations. But why is it that a wife, gets the same amount of support from the law, as the OW? I am not saying that the men shouldn't be responsible at all. But a woman who goes into a legally binding relationship(marriage) should have more say in support than a woman who got knocked up in a one night stand, intoxicated, and thought it would be fun to have kids, and who cares who has to pay to raise them. I feel this is also important when the man has a family to raise, the law doesn't seem to care about those children, or that wife. If my child can't eat because the man has to pay support for a OC, then the law tells him to figure it out. But if the OW, doesn't think she is getting enough money for her standards, she can always go back to court and keep asking for more for the next 18 years. Sorry, I am living this, so it really upsets me. I still can't believe that my child's food moeny is getting taken away for a one night stand mistake, and a woman who cares nothing about other people's feelings. My child loses her mother to the work force, and the OW and OC just have more money to spend, they don't need to survive. Sorry I carried on for so long

I think there should be a law that protects legitimate children's resources and MM from being exploited by their manipulative lovers. (Yes, the men had sex too and deserve that blame, but the women made the choice to have children. And in some cases, it is pure manipulation).<P>I think the MM should be able to have some kind of legal release which states that they do not want children and should the mother decide to have them anyway, he will be exempt from child support, responsibility, and legal rights. I am sure it would be used in many cases to release the man from his true responsibility, but it sure as hell would make these women more responsible and think twice about what they are doing. The scare of AIDS and marital vows are not enough to stop them from having unprotected sex. Maybe the fear of not having any money and not being able to attach herself to this MM forever through a child is more of a deterrent?<P>There really ought to be some legal protection for the legitimate family.

<small>[ February 27, 2005, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

If two people have sex they both are responsible...period. If you have a child, you know how it works. It is bad enough that a PA is taking place, but if that's the case, at least use birth control. People have lost their minds. What really amazes me is that the betrayed takes the person back. I am sorry, I don't care how much I thought I was in love with someone, I could not take back someone who made a baby with another woman while they were married to me. For me, those actions speak volumes about the character of that individual; it's not what I want, I don't care if he was drunk, in a fog, in love, addicted to his OW, or hadn't had sex in five years...too bad, there's no excuse. I'm not passing judgement on others, but for me, any love I thought I had would be squelched. There are some things in life one must put up with, a husband making a baby with an OW is not one of them.<BR>

Thank you all for your insightful posts.<P>I am not insensitive to the children of affairs. In fact, truth be told, I probably think of the OC in our situation with more tenderness and concern for her well-being than I admit to anyone. <P>However, it was her mother's responsibility to take care of her body if she were having sex with a married man. In a way she did. She brought pregnancy tests to the hotel room on two of the three occasions. <BR>It didn't register with my oblivious, alcoholic spouse that she was actively and deliberately going about getting herself knocked up. Talk about desperate. HELLO!<P>As for my spouse's gross selfishness and horrendous obtuseness (word?), he is guilty, guilty, guilty for what he has done. He will pay and pay and pay. Shame on him for being so incredibly stupid and self serving to not use protection when with a stranger. An enormous price to pay. And because I choose to stay with him, I will pay as well.<P>I agree with the analogy of various stages of responsibility to deter these predatory women from allowing this and blatantly causing this to happen. they should be penalized on some level for their actions. All these paternity hearings should be on a case by case basis, rather than a blanket 17 to 25 % of the father's income share, thus, creating an unnecessary hardship for the wayward spouse's innocent wife and children-in some cases even forcing the betrayed wife into the job market and having to leave her children in daycare. THAT is truly evil and there should be some kind of investigation into the circumstances of each case and a sliding scale of support according to the length of the affair, the age of the OW (does she know better? isn't her responsibility to take care of her body? was she trying to feather her nest with someone else's money so she doesn't have to work? was her bio clock ticking?)<P>In our case, my spouse came off like a big shot executive and she thought he had pockets full of money and that she had hit the lottery. She didn't bother to investigate if this were indeed true and rushed into trying to get pregnant IMMEDIATELY. <P>She probably knew on some level that she better hurry and have this happen because she knew that she probably didn't have a snowball's chance in hell to keep him for very long once he woke up and realized how low his standards had dropped and that it was all for ego gratification.<P>Now there is a little girl with no dad somewhere in NY who will never know him or have any relationship with him and has a mother who likes to sleep til 11 AM and lay around all day watching daytime TV. <BR>I really do feel so sorry for her. But, I don't want her in my life at my age. My granddaughter is older than she is and my kids would be horrified at this news.<P>What a tangled web we weave......<P>Prayers<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

I agree with lonelysoul 100%. It takes two and both should be responsible. Guess he should have thought about the other kids he had or the wife he had before he did it. I also agree that there probably is a lot of women out there that do it intentially trying to trap the man. But please, where is the guys brain? These are not 17 year olds. They know that just because a woman says she's on the pill doesn't mean she is. They know that lots and lots of women get pregnant while on birth control pills. Why aren't they using a condom? Besides preventing a pregnancy by wearing one, they might save their family from the heart ache of sexually transmitted diseases. Hey, they could solve TWO problems. The affair is bad enough, producing a child out of it is so sad it makes my heart ache. A child suffering for ever because of two adults making an extremely dumb choice. I also agree with Lonelysoul...if my husband came home and told me he had gotten another woman pregnant I wouldn't be standing by him and his stupidity.

To Lonely Soul:<P>I know how you feel because before this happened to me, I admantly said the same things you are.<P>I do question my spouse's character now where I never did before. For nearly two decades, he was completely faithful and had stellar character and integrity. What he did casues me to question whether or not the past was real or an illusion. However, no one can "act" that long and put up a huge front forever. <P>As for no excuse, you're right, there is no excuse for that behavior and irresponsibility. But, there is too much wonderful shared history for me to just walk away.<P>I really did say and feel the same way you do --unitl it happened to me.<P>catnip =^^=

I CAN'T BELIEVE THE BULL I AM HEARING IN HERE! People here have the AUDICITY to blame a woman for not killing her child or giving it away so that a man doesn't have to lose the family that he deceived. Yeah, your right, why any woman would want a baby with a man that is already married is beyond me. But to sit here it put the woman at TOTAL fault for making the choice to keep her child is something I would never do and yes I have been there in the past. The man when he got into bed without using a condom that not only could a woman lie about what type of protection she uses, but he knew about the diseases, the LIFE STEALING diseases that he could catch and give to his spouse. For crying out loud people, this is YOUR LIFE. I would take a OW child anyday then my health and lively hood. If OW has a child with H yes it is a horrendous pain, BUT it can work out, it will take years for the pain to subside and the insecurity to subside, but it is up to the H to help you along that road and you will get there one day if it is handled in a mature fashion. But to put the blame on a womens choice to keep her child, regardless of whether the father is helping or not, I will never condem. Instead I would condem my H for knowing full well that a pregnancy or disease could happen and still not thinking to be smart enough to use protection himself. He didn't protect our marriage but at least protect my health. No I am not PRO-LIFE, but come on, he's seen the news, he's heard the horror stories, might even no someone who has died of AIDS but still made that choice to lay in her bed unprotected. Now he has to deal with the reality of it and unfortunately now you have to decide what is in the best interest of your family on how to deal with this OC. But for goodness sakes don't say how stupid the women is for taking care of a choice she made, though it may have been unwise on her part.<p>[This message has been edited by trying2_4give (edited May 05, 2000).]

<BR>Yes, it takes two to tango. Very few will argue that a biological father should pay nothing in child support...as much as I depise and work to change the notorious income shares system, I fully believe in personal responsibility.<P>But lets make no mistake here. Blanket income share policies incent women to become pregnant by a MM. Its a guaranteed check every month, and in many cases it exceeds the actual costs involved in raising the OC. Until actual expenses are more closely aligned with child support judgments, we can expect to see more and more of these cases arising.<P>The moral problem, from a different angle, is the betrayed wife and children. Is it fair for the children in the family to be denied food so that an OC can shop at KidGap and go to DisneyWorld twice a year? I read about such cases and I'm not so much surprised at the epidemic of OWs getting pregnant as I am the fact that our laws encourage such immoral outcomes. I fully agree that factors like the presenence of marital children, length of the affair, and so on should be considered.<P>BonnieSept, I know details of catnip's situation. Without going into details, catnip's husband was not clinically of sound mind when he was having the PA. Because of this, I find the conduct of the OW especially unconscionable, approximately on a par with a man raping a profoundly retarded woman. And to see catnip near financial ruin as a result shocks my conscience. I find her case truly horrific.<P>Bystander

Catnip...<P>As I mentioned, I am not judging anyone. We all have to do what we have to do; however, I firmly believe that we all have choices. They are not always good choices, but we have them. When you decide to have sex with another person, then you better be prepared to pay the consequences. I don't care if the OW is satan in disguise, she didn't get pregnate by herself. How do you know the married man didn't feed her a ration of lies? I agree, it is unfortunate that the betrayed spouse and her children have to suffer, but you have your husband and his lover to thank for that no matter what the circumstances. Why should the OC pay because his or her biolgical parents acted so irresponsibly? Men don't have sex unless they want to...if they don't want to the equipment won't work. <P>I'm sure your H was a great guy and you do have wonderful memories. Forgive me for my bluntness, but his recent behavior hasn't been stellar and I doubt you will remember this fondly. I am sorry you are faced with this. It is the ultimate of lousy, and God bless you for wanting to take him back. I know that deep down, I never could be that forgiving...not for that. But that is me. I wish you and your kids the best.<P>

<BR>Lonelysoul,<P>At one level, then, you're willing to allow the OC to substantially deprive the marital children of their father's income stream. How is that moral? Why shouldn't all of his children, regardless of whether they were born within the marriage, have an equal claim on his earnings?<P>As a thought experiment, lets say that the H has four children within the marriage and gets an OW pregnant. The W is aware of how the income shares system works, files for divorce, custody, and child support *while the OW is still pregnant*. The case is awarded in favor of the now ex-W, and she claims 55% of his take home pay. Later on, the OW gives birth and sues for child support, but can't be awarded anything, because he's already paying the statutory maximum. Can you explain why the mere timinig of the judgments should have such a profound effect on the outcomes for this man's children? <P>Btw, your argument is predicated on the assumption that the actors engaging in sex are of sound mind. If there was an absence of rational thought, would you still feel the same way? I don't, although I recognize that the courts agree with you regardless. Remarkably, a woman who rapes a man and later falls pregnant can successfully sue him for child support - this has actually happened.<P>Bystander

I'm not even sure where to begin on this subject. I believed, as Catnip did, that I would never stay with my H if he had an affair. The added pain of an OC never even entered my mind as a possiblity. For the record, my H did use condoms. But that alone is not always adequate protection. My H and I love each other and have a history together (married 12 years). We have 3 young children together. So, basically, the situation just s*cks all around. We have to make the best decision from lousy choices. Ones that I did not ask for and do not deserve. Yes, I could divorce my H but where would that leave my 3 children? You cannot possible imagine the pain and heartache that this situation causes until you have lived it. I didn't marry someone who had kids from another marriage. I never imagined that I would not be the only mother to my H's children. <P>I think that over time I will be able to welcome this OC into our lives but it will take time. We have to take the time to repair our marriage before I will be able to face this other person in our lives. If our marriage does not heal properly, we will be cheating ourselves and our children. And chances are we would end up getting a divorce, emotionally if not physically, down the the road.<P>I feel very sorry for these innocent children. I know how precious children are. I know that my H made a poor choice in having the affair. He also made a poor choice in birth control that resulted in the XOW becoming pregnant. But, the truth is that the XOW does have the upper hand in making the decisions after that point. She is the one that decides to keep the child or not. And, since the WS is married, the decision is made knowing that the OC will not be raised by both parents. No, that doesn't relieve the WS of his responsibilites. But I agree with others that the entire situation should be looked at when determining child support. And you have to take your current family into consideration when determining physical support.<P>I agree that divorce is the closest model we have to compare with. But there are so many variables that exist from the infidelity that are not there with a divorce. It is unrealistic to expect the betrayed spouse to set aside all her emotions so that the WS can start taking care of an additional "family". Plus, we are not just talking about the betrayed spouses emotional well-being but also that of the children from their own marriage. <P>I would not wish this heartache on my worst enemy. I never knew that I could feel such pain as I have this last year and a half. But I know that in the end I will be a better person. I only wish that I had learned this lesson in a gentler way.<P>Audrey<p>[This message has been edited by Audrey (edited May 05, 2000).]

Bystander: I follow you as far as the guidelines for cs needing to be re-worked. But how? I guess I feel that BOTH parents should be equally responsible for the finances of their children. I see some divorced parents where the ncp may make really low wages so the income contributed toward the child is no where half of what it cost to raise that child. Then, there's other cases where the NCP is contributing above and beyond what it costs to raise the child, which means the cp isn't contributing anything financially towards their child. I don't like the way the system works either. I've heard lots of talk about how it's not the best way but I haven't heard anything about it ever being changed.

<BR>BonnieSept,<P>I have a lot of ideas on this issue, but I can't give you a pat answer, and I don't want to hijack catnip's thread. Hi, catnip! ==^^==<P>Would you like to discuss this in email? I'm willing to do it here, too, but its offtopic IMO. Anyhow, I can be emailed at<P>dis_interested@hotmail.com<P>Bystander

I have no direct experience of these situations (thank God), but it seems to me that women who get pregnant by married men are not always different from those who get pregnant by their latest boyfriend.<P>I don't doubt that some of them are as manipulative and scheming as some describe, but my impression is that many or most unmarried mothers have difficulty connecting their actions with the consequences. They are not stupid, exactly, but it doesn't seem to register that the rules of life apply to them as well. To use a phrase my wife once used, these are people 'to whom things happen'. It never occurs to them that they need to change their behavior, and it is almost a surprise when things go wrong. <P>Or else they are so used to living at the center of chaos that they don't bother trying to avoid trouble. <P>It is an interesting question, however, as to how much responsibility a woman assumes when she does not avail herself of the birth control methods available. I am not speaking here of the woman who is trying to entrap a man, married or not. What I mean is the woman who knows about and could easily get access to contraceptives, and simply never does. I read someplace that 40% of the abortions performed in America were second, third, or fourth abortions. A lot of women have not made the connection between sex and babies. I mean, I can understand one contraceptive failure, but four? <P>I guess for men, fair or not, once I have decided to have sex (unless I have had a vasectomy) I am handing over to the woman involved all decisions about child bearing. If she winds up pregnant, whether by accident or because she is lying about being on the pill, she decides whether or not to abort, and whether or not you are going to support the child until he/she is 18. And excuses like 'the condom broke' or 'she promised she was on the pill' or 'I already have three other children' aren't going to make a difference. <P>Don't really know if this is fair, but I am pretty sure it is real. <P>Only sure thing is, the child is going to get hurt.<P>Regards,<BR>rs0522<P>