My wife says she got drunk (I doubt, but hey)and drove to OM's house and had sex. She was aware enough to know that he was putting on a condom preparing for sex but not aware enough to make the decision to stop. So everytime we discuss the situation she starts with 'I was drunk'. Is this an excuse and if so then why?<BR>

The ancient Romans believed you were MORE guilty of a crime if you committed it while drunk because your true nature, free of social constraints, is revealed.<P>Ask her to consider this: A driver is pulled over after running a red light and hitting a pedestrian. He tells the judge, "Hey, it's not my fault, I was drunk!" What do you think the judge will say?<P>Cheers,<BR>Kenneth

I'm posting this with full awareness that I asked my husband not to do this very thing but I can't help it.<P>I am his wife and although drunkeness was a factor in stopping me from doing the right thing, I have never used it as an "excuse". I did not stop what happened because (as I've said before) I was not thinking about whether or not it was wrong. You had told me I was a substandard wife, had moved out, and papers had been filed for divorce. I was hurting and did what an irrational drunk person does. I did not expect to work things out with you and let me hurt feelings play themselves out accordingly.<P>You may behave as if we were happily married and I did this horrible thing to you if you like, but the fact is you are not giving all of the information.

Seems as if you both have your own realities here. That's OK. The truth (if there is such a thing) probably lies somewhere in the middle.<P>The question you both need to ask yourself is: Is it worth it to make a life together? Sotp with the "I was drunk" and "I can't forgive you because you did this" and see if you can work it out.<P>What happened happened. The mark of a mature person is to acknowledge your mistakes and move on.

So part of the whole story is this:<BR>I had moved out but I was spending my evenings and 5 out of 7 nights a week at home. We were having sex - two nights before and two nights after. We were going out more then we ever had. She had sex with her ex whom she had been contacting for 6 months only 11 days after I moved out. About 7 days later we took a trip to San Antonio and basically were back together and talking about calling the lawyer. But we are in counseling to hash all this out and I am apparently supposed to be in plan A or something but it is difficult. Anyway, Monen please respect my request as I have yours. Others feel free to comment on the question or the situation. No man-haters or women-haters please.

Drunkeness is not an excuse for actions. But, leaving the drunken or not aspect aside...<P>The fact that you had filed for divorce makes this a really GRAY area, newbie. <P>Have you guys ever heard the saying "two wrongs do not make a right?" Actually, as you have found, they make a really big mess.<P>Here's a suggestion...could the two of you quit worrying about what to call it (adultery or not)...quit worrying about who started it (as I tell my kids...it doesn't matter who started it, IT IS TIME TO STOP). <P>Instead, apologize to each other for the hurt you have inflicted on each other. As you do this, pls don't start (again) worrying about who's hurt is worse--it is not a contest, and there is no prize.<P>Love doesn't keep score. Love doesn't nurse its wounds. <B>Love takes care of the other, from this day forward.</B> (And, FWIW, Love should consider counseling if not already...)<P>Hoping and praying for you guys...<P>Kathi<P>Newbie--just read your add-on, and see that you are both in counseling...which is great. My heart goes out to you both, as it is obvious you are both in great pain....<P>Good luck to you both!!!<P>kathi<P>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited May 08, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited May 08, 2000).]

Thank you and I will agree with you. I would like very much to get past this but the problem we are running into is twofold. 1. She lied to me so much about everything that I have trouble trusting anything she says - especially about her feeling for the ex and myself.<BR>2. She apologizes for hurting her self worth by having a one night stand. She doesn't apologize for hurting me or the marriage.<BR>It is tough going but I love her alot and I think we can work things out - it is just taking a toll on me both emotionally and physically (no sleep). Oh, and we are in counseling but once a week is a lonog time in between.

Have you read Surviving an Affair?<P>One point it makes is that whoever went outside the marriage may not feel as sorry as the other would like...It is a pretty common reaction, I think, bcs of the dynamics that lead up to an affair...<P>

So where do I find 'Surviving an Affair"?

Welcome to all of our worlds.<P>My wife also has lied to me about everything, including getting pregnant with both of our children. Seems the only one that did not know she was trying was me.<P>She also does not (or at least did not) take any responsibility for hurting me or the children. Her only regret was that she does not see the children enough since I got primary custody.<P>I'm sure that others have similar experiences.<P>As Kathi says, love does not keep score. If I did, I would have left long ago with no backwards glance. You both need to go forward from here.<P>Good Luck to you. I wish my wife was computer literate and could post on the board. Then agian, maybe not. I've said some pretty bad things about her here.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kam6318:<BR><B>The fact that you had filed for divorce makes this a really GRAY area, newbie. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have to disagree here. If they were still sleeping together, they SHOULD HAVE a commitment to be honest and monogamous unless otherwise stated. I wouldn't knowingly sleep with anyone who was sleeping with someone else. It's just too dangerous to my health. We all owe each other that respect regardless, don't we?

Okay you guys. It sounds like you both are still hurting. In my experience, before you can get past the hurt you have to accept the past and move on.<P>I'm not taking sides here. IMHO, neither one of you is completely right or wrong.<P>Newbie: Why did you move out? Why did you move back? Why did you call Monen a substandard wife? You sound like you are hurting because Monen lied about what happened with her ex. I can understand that. But before you can truly heal you have to tell yourself that occurred in the past and you can only hope to affect the future. Past is done.<P>Plan A is hard. This whole situation is hard. Here is some more information for you about Plan A and a link to the book buying section. You can also order them from Amazon or any other bookstore. <P>Plan A: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html</A> <P>Overcoming Resentment: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html</A> <P>Books: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6000_bookstore.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6000_bookstore.html</A> <P>Another good book (IMHO):<BR>After the Affair: Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful (Janis Abrams Spring)--The first couple of chapters of this book do a great job in telling what the hurt and wayward spouses tend to be feeling when they find out about an affair. (Available from Amazon or any other bookseller.)<P>Good luck. This is hard.<P>Monen: My only advice to you is to simply remind your H that your indiscretion with your ex happened in the past and you are trying to work on the future. Don't lie about it; don't make excuses; don't look for pardon because you two were legally separated. It happened. Your husband is hurt. You are hurt. There were reasons for what happened; you two are addressing the reasons. Move on.<P>Good luck to both of you! You can get past this, but it will take time and effort. --HBC

I attempted to move out because I thought it would be easier on both of us. 1/2 of my stuff was at home the other 1/2 at a friends apartment. I moved back because I realized life with my wife was nothing compared to life without.<P>Our relationship is really damaged by the fact that she lied - I even looked her in the eye and said that I would forgive and forget right then and there if she would admit it and she still denied it. I told her our marriage was on the line and she still denied it.<BR>I am personally damaged by the fact that she had sex with someone else without regard to our marriage and what sex supposedly ment to her and myself.<P>I am trying but everything that I do reminds me of either her sexing someone else or that she lied to me (and I think still may). It just seems like she doesn't have an idea of my pain. She keeps saying it is my fault for looking for the truth. I am just having a tough time dealing with the damage.

thenewbie,<P>Yes, it hurts like hell, but you got to take a step back, and look really hard at your life and your relationship with Monen. Do you want your marriage to succeede or have you been hurt too badly? Are you still with your wife because you love her or for some other reason (loyalty)?<P>If you want your marriage to be a success and you really do love your wife, you got to let go of your hurt and anger, as these feelings will only serve to drive your wife further away from you. Take a good look at yourself and ask the question, is this a person I would like to be married to, be best friends with and spend the rest of my life with? These are the questions that your wife will ask herself about you!<P>Both of you are hurting, but it seems like you're each digging your heels in, and thus prolonging the pain and hurt. She lied to you and you took the moral high ground and made yourself superior to her. She's most likely having a real hard time with this, as it puts you in powerful position, where it is hard for her to confide in you since that, to her seems like she's giving you even more power over her, and reducing her to a subservient sinner, who have to make amends for the damage she's done. If you let this go on, you've found a really good recipe for building resentment and possibly mental abuse.<BR>I don't think that this is what you want, but you don't see a way past your own hurt, but believe me, you are the one who holds the keys at the moment, you're in a position where you can make or break your marriage. And the best thing that you can do is to use your position to show that you are made of the right stuff, and forgive your wife and trying everything you can to heal your marriage. You have nothing to lose with this approach and everything to win.<P>You migt ask, why can't she do all of this for you, after all, she was the one who lied to you and had sex with somebody else. I tell you why, because she's hurt, suffering from guilt and low self-esteem, she's simply not in a position to do this, in a way she's not powerful enough to do this right now, you are and thus the task lands in your lap.<BR>And though you might think that you're bending over backwards, don't give up or falter from the road you must travel. But soon, you will see the results and suddenly it will no longer be hard to do but a most natural thing to do...<P>And remember in the dynamics of a marriage, the best balance is when there is an equality of power between the spouses, but in certain situations the balance might shift one way or the other, and thus it is the duty of the spouse that currently hold the most power not to abuse it, but to use it to heal the marriage and restore the balance. You currently have that power, do not abuse it, but use it for the common good of the two of you.<P>Hope and prayers for you and Monen.

Sadman, thanks. You seem to be almost right on the money. I will take to heart your advice and God-willing I will be able to change my attitude and provide a loving environment for my wife. I only have one thing that nags at me. I don't think she feels guilty and hurt about the marriage damage - I think she feels hurt about the self esteme damage. It is a selfish hurt and it certainly doesn't help me. I was in a mood yesterday about things and she told me that I need to do whatever to snap out of it because it is making her moody. Not because it is hurting our marriage (it is) not because it is hurting me (it is) but because it is causing HER discomfort. It is confusing to me because I wouldn't behave the same way. Anyway, you are right and thanks everyone for letting me vent.

thenewbie,<P>You're welcome to vent, but do it here and not at home <P>Whether she feels guilty or not shouldn't matter for you right now, since your primary goal is to make a safe environment for her, where she feels cared for and loved. She might not feel guilty but I can surely tell you that she doesn't feel good about what happened, no woman would.<BR>But strive to always present your best side, and remember that you do love your wife, give her every opportunity to make her realize that she did the right thing by trying to work to heal your marriage. Surely in time, you will be able to address all these things, when both of you are comfortable with each other again, but before you get there, your primary goal is to heal your marriage, and unfortunately that means swallowing some pride and bite your tongue...<BR>But hang in there it won't take forever, and the rewards are so much better than you have ever imagined. Try to look at some of the posters in the Recovery thread and see some of the success stories from lostva and HGBrawner.<P>Hope & Prayers for you and your family.

Newbie,<BR>I still see you as putting yourself on a moral pedestal and talking down to your wife. You want to believe that what you've done is not as bad as what your wife did. Fact is, only she can judge how bad her hurt is, and you yours. <P>How is it in her benefit to admit to anything? So you can feel justified doing the things you've done? Have you apologized for moving out and filing? I haven't seen that. So, if she does apologize for hurting you, you say you will "forgive" her. Still sounds condescending. You will "grant" her your forgiveness, but won't ask for her forgiveness in return? Or, she has to go first, cause you think you are the one who is most hurt. <P>Both of you need to take responsibility for your actions. Both of you have done harm to the relationship. You are obviously not getting anywhere with the labeling, and who-hurt-whom worse stuff. <P>You say Monen feels bad about damaging her self, but not the marriage or you. You see this as negative. However, trust and integrity starts with the individual. Morals aren't "relative". If you asked her to jump off a cliff, would you expect her to jump so as not to hurt your feelings? <P>Were you being real considerate when you moved out? I don't think your wife's needs were tops on your priority list at the time. You expect your needs to be numero uno, and you don't consider it to be selfish, but when your wife does the same, then SHE is considered selfish. Pretty classic. <P>I have not seen you take much responsibility so far for the state of your marriage. I see you as pointing the finger at your wife and trying to make us all believe what a rotten wife she is (she cheated, she lied, etc.etc.) What are you planning on doing with the truth? Feel superior? Hold it over her head for life? Use it to shame her? Why would she want to give you any more information under those circumstances? <BR>

Student -<BR>I will agree with you on this point: "Fact is, only she can judge how bad her hurt is, and you yours. "<BR>But some of the other things that you have said are incorrect or spoken out of ignorance (but only because you are not with us 24-7 not because you are an ignoramous so don't take offense). The truth of the matter is this. I have spoken with my wife about the things that she and I have both done to lead us to the point that our marriage was called a divorce. I have apologized for my part of the rift that was placed in our marriage. I have spoken with her about the things I said and why I said them and what we could do as a couple to work toward addressing the feelings and expectations that each of us has about our marriage and partner.<P>Is there a way to say 'I forgive you' without opening yourself to the label of 'condescending'? No one 'grants' forgiveness but God - but that doesn't mean we can't forgive for the injury incurred. As far as being selfish. I have a difficult time understanding why you say what you say. It was selfish of me to say divorce but then when she sleeps with her ex (after fostering relationship for several weeks) I have no rights to call that selfish? But I will agree with you when you say this: "Both of you need to take responsibility for your actions. Both of you have done harm to the relationship. You are obviously not getting anywhere with the labeling, and who-hurt-whom worse stuff"<P>Now as far as the last paragraph - it is silly. But if you see it that way I will correct it. I agree that I am responsible for the damage to our marriage - there were things that I could have said and done that would have averted the state we are now in and for purely selfish and prideful reasons ignored what was right and did what I wanted. My wife is a wonderful person, I love her immensly (sp?). She is not rotten - I don't like or agree with what she did or how she is handling it but that doesn't change the fact that I love her. When your child steals cookies you don't stop loving your child but you don't dismiss what your child did. That is how I feel (not the child part so don't start). I love my wife but I can't dismiss what she did. Now as far as the truth - I just need to know that I am finally getting it. I don't want it to browbeat her or 'hold it over her head for life'. And it is a ridiculous arguement to say that if you get upset at her for telling the truth then she just won't tell you the truth anymore. That is what children do, not adults. Adults (should) tell the truth and face up to their actions and decisions. Now I will agree that if I "hold it over.." that would be wrong. But there is a time period that I need to come to grips with what has been done. And that is the time I am in. She or you cannot expect me to ignore lies and cheating and just smile and take it after a week. I am trying and have good days and bad but I am committed to trying.<BR>I thank you for your posts and discussion - it makes me take a closer look at how I feel and think and why I feel and think that way. It is a good exercise for my emotions and mind. So feel free to keep it coming and if you would like to email me in person I am always up for discussion (not name calling or aggression).

Newbie,<P>you said:<BR>"Adults (should) tell the truth and face up to their actions and decisions."<P>I completely agree. I also agree that doing so is very hard when the consequences are high. We can both agree that creating a safe environment will help lessen that fear.<P>Neither one of you did a great job at communicating your expectations prior to and following your separation. She "assumed" that since you left and said you wanted a divorce that perhaps monogamy was negotiable(?). You "assumed" that since the divorce was not final, that monogamy was a given. People get in trouble when they make assumptions. What I'm trying to tell you is that you are both equally at fault for not making your needs and expectations very clear. Now you want to call it an affair, and she is resisting, mainly because you both disagree about your assumptions. Obviously, neither one of you were clear. So, my advice is to chalk it up to BAD COMMUNICATION and do a better job in the future. <P>I have some experience with bad assumptions...My first H cheated on me before we were married. I was upset about it, and told him how important monogamy was to me, and left it at that. When he asked me to marry him, I "assumed" he was ready to forsake all others, etc. etc. Well, he was not. He cheated on me again within one week of our marriage, and proceeded to sleep with over 20 others during our short marriage. He later said he wanted an open marriage and he had "assumed" that since I did not break up with him before marriage, that this was ok. Bad *hit happens when people assume things, was my lesson.

"I completely agree. I also agree that doing so is very hard when the consequences are high. We can both agree that creating a safe environment will help lessen that fear."<P>I will agree with you there but I personally believe that maturity and honor (I know -outdated but it is me) should drive a person to do what is right even when the consequences are high. And in this particular case the only high consequences was how far her pride will/did fall. I specifically told her that if she told the truth I would forgive her and forget it ever happened in the same second she told me the truth and yet she couldn't/wouldn't.<P>"Neither one of you did a great job at communicating your expectations prior to and following your separation."<P>Actually we did (not great but we talked about it). When we seperated we talked about various things like us getting back together (remember I was sleeping there 5 nights a week and sleeping with her)and we both said that we wouldn't sleep with anyone for at least a year or more(she said she wouldn't till she got remarried - that lasted about a week) and I even said I wouldn't date anyone for 6 months or more.<P>"Now you want to call it an affair, and she is resisting, mainly because you both disagree about your assumptions."<P>Actually I believe we disagree on a moral/religious point - she feels seperation is not marriage and I believe it is.<P>"So, my advice is to chalk it up to BAD COMMUNICATION and do a better job in the future."<P>I am willing to chalk up the evenets leading to our filing papers as bad communication and will do a better job in the future. But I don't chalk up her infidelity to bad communication. <P>Now I would chalk up your story to bad communication. I hope you have found someone that makes you happy and even if/when our discussion gets heated or our opinions differ I will always wish you the best. Again thatnk you for your response.<P>