<P>I like the idea of plan A. Have never been able to do a perfect A for more than a few days my self, but I think it's a good idea. In general and up to a point that is.<P>I urge all of you to go read Sharlene Smiths thread, "he won't give her up", reply to her then maybe come back here and let us discuss Plan A and when it's time to say enough.<P>As those of you who know me can tell this poor ladys situation has me well I'll be nice and say ticked off. It makes me want to go beat up my bozo just on g.p. !<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Hey, Deb - this is definite 2X4 material. I'm with you on this one.<P>Lori

OK...my H's affair was brief and he never wanted to leave the home, end the marriage or continue the affair. So I had it relatively easy and I respect and admire those who have Plan A'd in more complex situations.<P>My own opinion Plan A can work if betrayed spouse sees what the relationship was lacking and seeks to change their ways.<P>Or if the marriage was good and the betraying spouse's behavior is totally out of character, Plan A could draw your spouse back rather than push him/her further. Especially if the betrayed keeps an even keel with Plan A, the betrayer comes to realize that they do not want to lose their marriage and together they can rebuild.<P>Generally speaking however, (which means there are exceptions) if there is substance abuse, physical abuse or sever emotional abuse, Plan A may enable, rather than help.<P>And if you are truly married to someone that is selfish, mean spirited or a person that just does not value marriage or fidelity, you can Plan A all day and the best you'll get back is the same jerk you had in the first place.<P>Generally, (which again means not always) Plan A can only work if the spouse is a decent person to begins with and really wants to come back to the marriage for whatever reason. <P>Plan A can not make anyone do anything...and if you do a reasonable plan A and it does not work, I don't think it is the betrayer that failed rather than the betrayed just could not or would not let themselves be reached. Sometimes I think we get the impression that the if you do everything right, you get your marriage back...and if you do not, then you must have done something wrong. I totally disagree.<P>Everyone has their own limits which should be respected. No one actually knows what they would do unless the situation actually presents itself. But, I am reasonably sure if my H had not ended the relationship and cooperated in rebuilding, I would have used about the same time out method I use on my 4 year old...which is I send her for time out, but assure her when she is in control of her emotions and can behave as expected, she will be welcomed back to whatever we are doing with hugs and kisses. Maybe a blended Plan A/tough love approach, which of course Plan B is also.<P> <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

IMHO - We all have values (personal and those indoctrined into our civilization and religions) and I think it's important to speak up and let people know when their behaviour is inappropriate. I don't think this is a love-buster. I think it's much safer to say nothing and appear to be cooperative than to risk raising their ire, but in my opinion, a true soulmate (my, how that word gets bandied about) is someone will risk being the "bad guy" to tell the other when they're doing something that is making them less of a person than they can be or should be. Of course, the other part of that is to stand by them when they are attempting to work their way towards being honourable. <P>One of the things I admire about my H (see, I do remember something!) is that he has confronted people who are abusing their children or pets, either physically or emotionally. I do the same - so how can I NOT take the same stance when it involves myself and my own family??? <P>My problem with Plan A is that it appears (to me) to be passive acceptance of certain behaviour. I think that's totally counter-productive, that hurtful behaviour should NEVER be acceptable, and should never be tolerated. <P>Ok, stepping down now ...

As I said before, I like the idea of plan A.<P>But how long can a person be expected to do this when thier spouse 1) refuses to give up the op and 2) wants to bring the op to your home.<P>I know that Mike wanting to bring last ow to our home is STILL a very big issue with me.<P>Maybe I am too hard and unforgiving.<P> <P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Hi folks (I finally have a slow Friday).<P>I won't comment if it's time for Sharlene to say enough, because she's the only one who has the answer for that. But her situation isn't impossible, and other than the openness that her husband is showing in the affair, it's not even all that unusual. (The alcoholism is my biggest concern actually).<P>My wife did nearly the same things to me that Sharlene's husband is doing to her. Openly continuing the affair. Going to visit on weekends. Arrrgghh!!!! But, I knew that this was uncharacteristic for the person I married---it was the "insanity" that I've talked about before. So I figured that there was a chance that she would become sane again, I loved her, and I wanted our marriage to be a success.<P>With that motivation, I started plan A. Moira, a big mistake that you (and others) see in Plan A is the "doormat" issue. Not standing up for what you believe in. <P>It was completely consistant that I let my wife know that I did not approve of her affair. That it wasn't OK with me. That it hurt me deeply. When she would tell me that she wanted to go visit the OM, I would counter with (unsuccessful) offers of a weekend trip to the Carribean or anything else. <P>So, my wife knew where I stood. But I tried not to let my honesty become a lovebuster. I never demanded that she end the affair, or not go on her trips. You can't stop someone from having an affair (effectively) by lovebusting. They don't love you to at that point in time, and demanding behavior on your part will not help.<P>Plan A is about learning new behaviors that make your marriage a better place to be. The benefits to you are that you learn skills that will help you for a lifetime---maybe in your current marriage, maybe in your next. The benefits to the partner is that you (hopefully) have given them a clear demonstration that you CAN change, and that the marriage can change (for the better).<P>I thought that I did a pretty good job in Plan A. And once I got into Plan B, I was pretty sure that my marriage was over. But part of the effect of going through the plan A process was that I quickly realized that I hadn't failed. That I was successful---just not in saving my marriage. That helped give me the strength to forgive, and to continue in Plan B being the best father to my kids that I could be.<P>And then lo and behold---I got my chance at my marriage.<P>Moira; hurtful behavior is often tolerated and dealt with compassionately. When my kids hurt my feelings, I don't deal them off to the orphanage. When my parents hurt my feelings, I don't cut them out of my life. When coworkers hurt my feelings, I don't act out of spite and vengence.<P>It's harder with a spouse---the one person you love more than anyone on the planet also has the capacity to hurt you the most. But it is possible to work through the hurt and pain and recover a marriage that's even better than you can imagine. I'm proof. And Steve Harley was my guide on that journey.<P>And FHL:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No one actually knows what they would do unless the situation actually presents itself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Amen to that. I would have never, EVER believed that I could have survived and dealt with the things I did. But the horrors of that journey are buried by the joy of the destination!<P> <BR>

It will be no surprise to anyone to hear me voicing my skepticism about Plan A... Agreed, when the betrayer is clearly conflicted, being "nice" will make him more likely to choose you over her than if you're being a screaming "b"; granted, we should all be the best people we can be and react with love whenever possible... But enabling, perpetuating the affair, and making yourself look like a doormat to the betrayer (one isn't usally attracted to one who doesn't command respect) all seem to me to be self-defeating. I agree that drawing boundaries in a non-love-busting way, "tough love," needs to be incorporated. <P>As for myself, I've been Plan A-ing and it's been going great, but I'm started to wonder how and when we can discuss our "issues" w/o busting this fragile little love nest I've built on this theory!! Real relationships aren't always fun; there will be conflicts and problems to be solved; those who can't handle that have affairs, I guess. If you have to make your marriage "affair-like" to save it, I don't know; sounds unrealistic. We all love-bust, we all need to be forgiven and forgive ourselves for being human.<p>[This message has been edited by quandry (edited February 04, 2000).]

Deb - I did read Sharlene's thread and responded to it with a suggestion which I think is the most appropriate response for her. I share your angry reaction to her story but don't share your liking for Plan A. <P>I think there are cases where it can work and feel that FHL probably has the best take on when it will work and when it won't. In my case, it didn't and I think the reason is just because my W is emotionally abusive (sarcastic, blaming, critical about 80% of the time). All she did was to take advantage of my being extra nice and I ended up even apologizing for fights that SHE started (which is MOST of them, with her constant criticism). <P>And for the last couple of months that I was doing it, I REALLY knocked myself out, only to have her show a complete lack of romantic interest in me on a little getaway trip that was supposed to bring the romance back into our relationship. At that point, I lost it and Plan A was history for me. To tell you the truth, the way she behaves, I am VERY much happier not trying to bang my head against that particular brick wall any more. <P>Now I do what I want, say what I want, and mostly don't really give a rusty you-know-what what she thinks or says. Much, much happier for me. And now I think that Plan A for me was really too much like REWARDING my W for having her affair. Plus there is the doormat factor and it's a big factor.<P>In short, I think Plan A has a good chance IF the betrayer has confessed to the affair (my W never has, another problem), and IF the betrayer also isn't being emotionally abusive towards the betrayed and at worst has just withdrawn somewhat emotionally. I also think that for it to be really successful, you need a couples counselor who believes in Harley's methods.<P>(BTW, thanks Deb for starting this thread. It really got me thinking about the whole subject.)<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

You are hearing from someone who has no direct experience with Plan A. However, it seems to me, after much reading here and the books, that some thing is being forgotten in the "doormat" discussion. Plan A is about realism. It is about recognizing the reality of what has/or is happening and trying to do something constructive about it.<P>The betraying spouse has already decided that the marriage as it exists is worthless and has found someone else. In a sense the marriage is over. All Plan A is supposed to do is show the betrayed spouse that the marriage can be changed and changed in a way as to make it more acceptable to the betrayer. <P>It is also an evaluation tool. If you can evaluate yourself and find things that you now in retrospect see as contributing to the breakup of the marriage, and then change them you are not being a doormat. You are taking responsibility for your part of the break up.<P>Finally, it gives the betrayed something worthwhile to do, while the affair is ongoing and hopefully eventually burning out. <P>It seems to me Plan A is not about getting your spouse to leave OP. It is about offering your spouse an alternative when and if the affair burns out. Most affairs do burn out. Then what? Does the betrayer come back? Only if the things that drove them away are better. Only if the betrayed wants them back. Only if the betrayed is a better opportunity than someone else out there.<P>The fact is the vows have been broken and Plan A does not unbreak them. It is about personal growth on the betrayed's part and some changing in the personal interaction between the two people.<P>Lostva gave a great description of Plan A in a post yesterday. You can look it up. But seems many think that Plan A will stop the affair. It will not. <P>It will change you and it will show the betrayer that the marriage can change, if they decide to look at the you and marriage as a viable option. If the affair doesn't really end or guilt does not come in, then Plan A only prepares you for Plan B, which as K as pointed out many times is not so much a demand but protection of the betrayed. It also smooths the transistion to divorce if the betrayer does not see the fantasy of their affair.<P>It seems to me you are missing the point; the affair will dominate until the affair burns out. Harley's point is that most affairs do burn out for a variety of reasons. When they do, the opportunity to rebuild a marriage and make it better is greatly enhanced if Plan A is followed. However, there are no money back guarentees.<P>If it was a completely fool proof plan, Dr. Harely, and his family would be gazillionairs or the divorce lawyers would have issued a contract on him and had him removed. .<P>Being nice to people and understanding your role in your interaction with people is a good thing to do no matter what the circumstances and Plan A is about doing that for your spouse. It is not about being a doormat and doing anything you really don't want to do or agree with. It is accepting the fact that the affair is or has taken place and the vows have been broken. What ARE you going to do?<P>There I have vented . Sorry to barg in, but maybe you can discuss why you really expected this to be a fool proof plan. ( I know the answer, Hope). You should have that but it must be tinted with some realism, Plan A. <P><BR>I apologize if I have offended anyone here.<P>JL<P>

Ok, the orphanage comment hit below the belt. <BR>I have never packed my kids off to an orphanage either (that's where I got them - so that REALLY struck a nerve). My kids know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I will NEVER, EVER stop loving them. But if they do something that is deliberately hurtful, of course I explain to them that it is unacceptable, why its so, what the consequences are to the action, how it affects others, and what action I will take should it continue. And shouldn't I follow thru on that action should they do it again? This is my duty to help them be the best they can be. (and BTW something their BM didn't do - oh, we wouldn't want them to mad at her, she had to be the good guy, the great pal and friend, so they could do whatever they wanted, no restrictions - until she ended up with drug-addicted holy terrors, then suddenly they were foisted off to juvenile detention) errggh. Enough about that. <P>Anyhow, while a child may not know or understand their error, its downright silly to believe that an adult doesn't understand how much they hurt their spouse while committing adultery. When our children, parents, siblings etc. hurt our feelings, do we honestly on a deep level believe they no longer love us? There's the rub - in the case of infidelity, that's exactly what we feel! So, I'm not real fond of that analogy either. <P>I disagree that hurtful behaviour is to be tolerated, I do agree it is to be dealt with compassionately. Yes, we all make mistakes, and we have to be prepared for the consequences of all our actions. <P>I am not against Plan A totally. But I do think like all things, it must be used discriminately. To allow all sorts of demeaning behaviour to occur without protest is to me selling out your own principles. That doesn't mean you have to screech, rant and rave but to remain silent is implied consent. (Ask any child with his hand in the cookie jar). I think the idea should be to let them know exactly where you stand on ALL issues but leaving the ultimate judgement up to them (hey, lets face it, that's what's gonna happen anyhow).<P>This isn't a race to martyrdom - there is absolutely nothing wrong with defending your own honour. It's also your time to analyze and decide whether YOU want THEM back. <P>I've not used the "doormat" analogy because I think we can make our own choices - we each draw our own line in the sand. <BR>

I'm a Plan A guy. Been at it for a year and it is now a way of life for me. I see myself as a husband most any woman would desire. My self-esteem has increased as a part of it, and I generally like myself now. That is a great benefit of Plan A.<P>There were times when I thought it was futile. But as K mentioned, I came to understand that by giving my best for my marriage under horrible circumstances, I would be the benefactor no matter how my marriage turned out. I had to know that I gave my marriage everything I had. If it ended, I never wanted a single regret. I had to know I did everything I could do to save it. <P>Now with all that said, I don't think I could have Plan Aed in Sharlene's situation. After seven months, she is to the point that her husband is scheduling sexual encounters between his wife and his lover. That physically turns my stomach. <P>I don't think Plan A will work if there is a complete loss of respect for the betrayed spouse. My wife may have been in love with another man, but she didn't lose all respect for me. That allowed me to work my way back into her life. Sharlene's husband has sunk so far into the abyss that his mind is not only in a fantasy state but has become warped. I think if she allows him to continue in the current situation, his next suggestion will be inviting his wife to join him and his lover. <P>He's going down and he's trying to take someone with him. You can't Plan A in that type of situation. <P>SHA<P>

SHA - Yo, bro. I think both you and JL make some good points about what constutes a "successful" Plan A, and that "success" doesn't necessarily mean winning your spouse back from the OP. I guess I'm somewhat bitter in that I really did work hard at "Plan Aing" my W from Feb. through early Sept., a space of 7-8 months, which I feel gave it plenty of time. However, I did define "success" as somehow winning her affections back from the OM, as well as getting her to show a little more respect for me. That's the sense for me in which it didn't "work."<P>SHA, I think you're exactly on target when you say that the betrayer has to retain some respect for the betrayed. And I'm happy to hear that this is the case with your W and you. This is one of the differences in our situations, I guess. My W really has NO respect for me, constantly bad mouths me to all her friends, etc. Under these circumstances, there's really nothing I can do except go my separate way, which is what I'm doing now.<P>When I was doing Plan A, I wanted to "earn" her respect and failed to. I don't really blame Plan A, I guess. I blame her and that's her problem if that's how she wants to treat me. But I simply refuse to be treated like that and if it means leaving the marriage (as it apparently does) then that's what it means. I've decided that I'll find someone who does respect me and is romantically interested.<P>And I KNOW that her lack of respect for me is directly due to her affair. I think this is the case with many betrayers, that they lose respect for their betrayed spouses. For one thing (I've seen this from lurking on Philanderer's Forum) betrayers are constantly comparing their spouse and their OP and the spouse usually comes off a very, very distant 2nd best, especially as a lover. And for another thing (suspect this is what happened in my case), the OP bad mouths the betrayed spouse to the betrayer, even if he or she doesn't even KNOW the spouse. End result, little or no respect for the betrayed spouse.<P>So excuse me if I'm not willing to "wait out" the time it takes for the affair to burn out. I really don't want to be with someone who's going to do that kind of thing to me. I can't love THEM any more, whether or not they might eventually want to return. I can forgive someone if they apologize and ask for forgiveness, but if not, not.<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

P.S. - I guess I've answered Deb's question, at least for myself!<P>--Wex

I'm back just to check on this 'cause Plan A discussions interest me! And you guys all know how I feel about Plan A. It's for the betrayed, not a method to "get your spouse back." And I plan A'd while H was living with PT.<P>But......I've got to go with SHA here. It was the "scheduling" that made me ill. The assumption that she just "had to deal with it". The meeting that was scheduled. Taking advantage of the financial situation to flaunt and force this issue. These things would have been beyond even what I could have handled, I think. Not saying definitely, I haven't been there. But I could hardly deal with reading about them.<P>I do realize that Plan A requires amazing restraint. And K and others made some terrific points - all of which I agree with. But, sorry, guys, for me, this is too much. Just too much.<P>Lori

There seems to be so much confusion over what constitutes a plan A ..I would like some guidance as well.Does it mean one totally ignores the ongoing affair while waiting for it to burn out?How can I discuss this with my husband when he has asked me to leave him alone as he "deals with it"??<BR>To make demands that he leave her are sure guarantees to push him further away..How does one keep up a successful plan A and send a message across to the betrayer that this is unacceptable?doesn't that constitute a selfish demand on part of the betrayed?<BR>It just seems that the days and nights are shuffling by with this huge unresolved conflict looming over us and I'm so worried how long will all this take to end....<BR>

Very new to forum, by a few days, how do I read (and what is?) a thread . I am interested in reading Sharlene SMiths info. Thanks for your help.

I think we all can agree that plan A can work.<P>We have our own sucessful plan A'ers here to prove that.<P>But I hope we can also agree that somethings are just to horrible to plan A through, for some of us any way.<P>If Sharlene Smith is reading this thread, first let me say that I mean no disrespect to you , but your situation truely broke my heart. NO ONE should be treated the way you have been. And I wanted to draw other peoples attention to your thread, I think you need all the support you can get right now, and this is the place to get it.<P>To answer a couple of questions, this is a thread, if you want to read a certian persons<BR>thread, just scroll down the page until you find the persons name and click on the topic next to thier name.<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

This has been quite an interesting thread and I have learned so much. But I must express my opinion here, and being inexperienced in all of this, I'm sure to catch some flack,but please bearwith me.<P>First of all, my h has not (at least to my knowledge) committed adultery, had sex, or whatever, but he has had 2 emotional affairs, of that I am convinced even though he tried to play them off as nothing. My reaction to the first one was "this WILL end or I WILL leave." He ended it, quit his job, and we got on with our lives. The fact that we got right back into the situation 2 years later tells me we never resolved whatever led him there to begin with. But it also told me that he loved me enough to stay with me. Anway, allowing him to continue the relationship was never an option for me!! But, when he got into the next one, I did NOT force him to stop! What happened? THAT relationship only grew stronger and became more secretive. SO, my point is, when I found out that, I told him it MUST end or we were finished. That's my way of protecting myself...I could NOT go there and suffer watching, wondering, worrying. I plan to plan A with him and try every way I can to meet his emotional needs or whatever caused him to seek these relationships, but that IMO could NOT work as long as he's continuing the other relationship. From my understanding, that is the purpose of Plan A, but you can't truly do that, again IMO, if other SO is still "involved" in their fantasy escape person or whatever. I agree with the others that that just makes me feel too much like a doormat and lose my self respect. Please don't bash me too hard guys!!