First of all....sorry for the label (betrayers)....<P>My question is: Does a betrayer ever FULLY realize the extent of damage that they have inflicted upon their spouse? OR, would they only realize the extent, if they in turn, became the betrayed?

Good question NoTrust.........<P>I hope someone can answer that one for me too.

how could they....<P>how can they possibly...<P>they could only PARTIALLY realize it, if they took their fists, inserted them into their own chests and ripped out their still beating hearts by themselves....but that would still only be a PARTIAL understanding....<P>Dylan<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

nevermind<p>[This message has been edited by Monen (edited May 21, 2000).]

I'm hoping that betrayers won't be offended by this question.<P>The reason for why I ask this question is this... my H & I have had (I guess what you can call)....a speedy-type of recovery. I know, I know...I should be grateful. However, in a way, it scares me.<P>Although he has told me how remorseful he is, and has changed many major unacceptable behaviors for the benefit of our marriage, I am concerned that he thinks that I have recovered completely from his affair (by the way, affair was brief...7 weeks long....we have been in recovery since March 1999).<P>I do always want him to remember what he did and to never forget it. I don't constantly remind him of it. We are trying to live our lives the way it was (pre-affair). <BR> But, I'm concerned that he may think that he "got off easy...."<P>I've suffered tremendously (as many of the betrayed have)...and I am a "scarred and changed" person because of this.<P>I'm curious to know if a betrayer can even fathom the tremendous dispair that a betrayed spouse goes through......

If a betrayer is fully remorseful, they have a tremendous amount of pain to deal with. Perhaps different from yours, but pain nonetheless. I'm sure you would have a hard time fathoming the pain a remorseful betrayer goes through. I've been on both sides and I can tell you it doesn't matter much which side you are on. Pain is pain and it sucks for both people.<P>I suggest that to be fully reformed, that the betrayer cannot only base their behavior on another person (i.e. how much pain you are in). Sounds strange, but I believe I caused much more pain to myself than I ever caused my ex. By basing his behavior on how much pain you might experience, he opens himself up to future betrayal. Why? Because all he'd have to do is convince himself that you wouldn't be hurt all that much and he could do it again. If he is aware that, no matter how much pain you may or may not experience, that betrayal of you is a bigger betrayal to himself, he will shield himself from any future behavior like this. <P>When I betrayed my ex, I was convinced he wouldn't care. I was convinced that he didn't love me any more (he said he didn't want to be married to me) and that in a twisted way I was actually doing him a favor. Even if all of that was true, and I believe part of it was, I consider the harm I did myself much worse than the harm I did to him. Yes, my H was hurt. But he divorced me (not what I wanted) and he can go out and find someone new, which he probably wanted to do anyway. So his damage is temporary IMO. However, I will live with this stain on my soul forever. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 21, 2000).]

I have been on both sides, too. I betrayed my first wife 14 years ago with Larri. Now have been betrayed by her.<P>In my case, I did not realize the pain I had caused until I was the betrayed.<P>This second betrayal brought up a lot of stuff for my first family that I thought was settled. My first family was very upset about what happened. We had to do a lot of work about their feelings.<P>One of the big issues for them was why did I fight so hard to gain custody of my 2nd children, when I did almost nothing for my 1st children. We are still working through that one.<P>I was in pain when I went through the 1st divorce. But it is nothing compared to this second. I want to go to my first wife and ask her forgiveness for the pain that I had caused her. But I am afraid. Not that I want to get back together with her, but as a closure.

Hi NoTrust,<P>As you know, I have been on both sides too. Yes, I believe that I know both sides very intimately, and wish to hell I didn't. I think that my remorse was deeper because I did know the depth of pain, and honestly, I think that unless you can understand from the side of the betrayed (from experience) it's like Dylan said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>they could only PARTIALLY realize it, if they took their fists, inserted them into their own chests and ripped out their still beating hearts by themselves<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Bottom line: No, I don't think they can understand unless they've been through it themselves. Sad, but true.

Care to read what I posted on "In Recovery?"<P>While I will never claim to have endured the pain I caused my husband with my infidelity, I will not sit here and be told that I can't see it, don't care about it, and don't try to make him happy in ways big and small EVERYDAY.<P>My life is hell somedays - and lately more often than not.<P>I don't know about your husband or anyone elses, I only know my own heart. I have know even since I was a child when I was truly sorry for some hurt I'd caused someone, and when I truly wasn't.<P>It causes me immense pain when I reflect on the suffering I caused Unseen2. He is a beautiful man who never deserved to have someone like me happen to him. Everyday I have to live with this. <P>I wonder what my unborn child will think when he's old enough to understand if he ever finds out? Now I feel like I have to hide this big secret from him - about what mommy did to daddy before he was born. Yep, my life's a walk the park.<P>More like a walk in central park after dark in stilletto heels, a mini skirt, and a rapist following me in the bushes.<P>Sincerely and exhaustedly,<BR>Khyra

Grandpabri,<P>We are all haunted by ghosts of our pasts and many of them affect us in the present. I too had a few ghosts that, while their bodies are no longer amongst us, I still felt their angered spirits. I had locked them away for many years thinking that they would not bother me. I realize as I now go through my own marital issues how some of the problems my W and I now face are rooted here. During a recent trip back to my "ancestral home" I stopped by the cemetary to apologize to all concerned and forgave them for the things they did/did not do. I was very emotional and had my sister present. I cried and she hugged me. I felt an enormous weight lifted off me and felt my own spirit finally freed from the chains they placed on me.<P>If you can contact your ex-wife, then do it and apologize. You can send her a letter if you wish not to do it personally. She does not have to accept your apology. What's important is that you offer it. This will not only demonstrate great courage on your part but also great humility. Something that will not go unnoticed or unrewarded.<P>Everyone else:<P>I don't think my wife will ever fully understand the depth of my pain short of her becoming the betrayed. However, I am still having trouble understanding the depth of hers that would cause her to violate not only our marriage, but her own very principles and morals. We (the betrayed) cetainly look at the situation from our our pained viewpoint but often, it seems, that many of us can't "wear our spouses shoes" to see how things were for them. (OK, OK, flame off please). <P>I have been working hard to understand things from my wife's side and doing so has helped me to overcome the "helpless victim syndrome" and has made me more compassionate towards my wife. I have said before and will now too, that I do not condone what she has done. I am beginning to understand how she felt before the affair began. As I learn more, I feel more capable of truly forgiving her. As I am able to show her this more and more, I see her beginning to acknowledge what she has done and her own shame and remorse are beginning to surface. Once it does, we stand a better chance to reconcile. At that point we will both be in better shape to support each other through recovery.<BR>

The self hate that the betrayer has is unbelievable!!! I don't think anyone can inflict such pain to noes self as yourself.I have been married for 9 yrs and have honestly never been faithful to him. It was all pretty handleable due to one night stands, but last August i had a 4 month affair w/a co-worker that i really had feelings for. He too was married. We broke it off and avoid time together. I thought i would never do it again and i have! I have been having an affair since the end of last month w/another man and last night was our goodbyes because my husband is coming back to town. My heart hurts for the loss of someone i have grown close to and I know i must face reality. I feel like it is a sickness and don't know how to control. Do i attempt fixing my marriage...We have 2 kids3yrs and 51/2 years...or is it beyond repair. I have lied for so long i know my husband doesn't know me at all really. Only want he wants to think of me. He use to be my best friend untill I screwed it all up by testing waters that should never be tested. Now what do i do????<BR>I am open for any suggestions!!!<BR>

I think this question is something that can have many answers. I was the betrayer, and then I was betrayed. I can spell out the exact feelings I had as a betrayer and then betrayed and let you decide. I felt the horrible pain of guilt and remorse and humiliation as a betrayer. I felt as if my self esteem was below zero, and that my husband was worth so much more than what I had to offer when I realized what I was doing was wrong. This pain was horrible, and led to me thoughts of suicide many times. I had inflicted the pain, and I felt I deserved 10 fold. I remember an overwhelming feeling of depression and despondance wherever I was and whatever I was doing, until I confessed to my husband. I didn't tell him to ease myself of the guilt somuch as to let him out of what I believed was a farce. He was there under false pretenses.<P>When I was betrayed, it was like a knife through the heart. No matter what anyone here would say, I still felt the pain of this just as much as anyone who has been betrayed, because I love my husband. I couldn't believe that agony, and what I put my husband through. As far as my own experience goes, I can only say the pain for both are different, yet complete in their own way. And I wouldn't wish either upon my worst enemy.

NoTrust:<P>I'm not speaking on behalf of all betrayers. I'm only speaking for myself. <P>I felt tremendous pain/remorse for what I did to my husband (even though my husband still doesn't know). The first few months after I ended my affair, I wanted to kill myself. Every day, I had to tell myself, "Today, I will live/stay alive even though I don't deserve to live or to be alive." No, I'm not suicidal anymore...haven't been suicidal for a while now. I felt pain in a ways that I never thought possible. When I'm having one of my "down" days, I feel as if the nightmare that I created for myself happened only yesterday (it's been more than a year now).<P>This will sound strange, but I am actually thankful for the pain. Feeling pain shows me that I'm human and that I'm not some kind of unfeeling monster. I'm a very passionate and imaginative person, so I know exactly what I did and the extent of the pain that my decisions caused everyone.<P>I'm not saying that what I have suffered is equal to the pain that a betrayed person suffers. But, nontheless it is a very real pain that I feel...<P>When I made the choice to cheat, it is as if I did rip my own heart from my chest. Don't worry, I don't expect pity from anyone here. I made my own choice, and I'm living with it.<P>Jill<P>

I told my wife (who has betrayed me and are now filing for separation to start new life with OM) that I hoped she or OM one time in the future will experience the same that I have gone through the last 6 months (be cheated on). (Big LB I know).<P>She replied ironically:<BR>"What a nice thing to say"<P>That gave me some comfort since it showed me that she at least must feel that she's doing me some harm.<P>scandinavian

NoTrust - I feel that my husband and I are in the same situation that you are in, or at least are getting there fast. It has been exactly one week since my husband found out that I had been unfaithful to him, and I feel very confused about how quickly we seem to have gotten past most, if not all, of the anger and raw pain of last week.<P>I feel torn, because I don't want to forget the pain that I caused him and pretend nothing has happened, but on the other hand I don't want to keep reminding myself every time I turn around because I know it's not healthy and it will just make me gloomy and unpleasant to be around. I'm just not sure how to act at this point.<P>For ourselves, we are continuing counseling for as long as we feel we have something to talk about with the counselor.<P>I can't really answer your original question, NoTrust, but I can tell you that the pain of seeing my husband in such raw misery; of seeing him lose his trust and much of his respect for me, and knowing I never deserved that trust and respect; and knowing that he (while, as he reminded me, not perfect) has done nothing to deserve the pain I gave him.... Those things have to be just as bad as being on the other side of it; not the same, but just as bad.

Good question...maybe this will help.<P>No, I don't believe I have any sense of the magnitude of pain I have inflicted upon my wife (with what little she did discover)<P>The reason being, the "affair" produces an incredible amount of "novicane" (or numbing angent) that has to dull the sensitivity to the pain of others here. There had to be some degree of pain in the marriage to begin with for any number of reasons, in order for the affair to have taken place. (My opinion here)<P>So the incredible sense of wonderful feelings that come about, I believe "deaden" to some extent the ability to comprehend what pain we have inflicted. Then, throw in the pain of withdrawl over losing this person who has meant much to you (betrayer), there is a mixture of pain...realizing how you have screwed things up, and the loss of someone you really believe you were in love with.<P>As far as having the tables turned, I have thought of that often. There would almost be a sense of "relief"...in a distorted way, and believe me...if it were to happen, I would certainly be more understanding of how and why. Not saying it wouldn't hurt, but I don't think I would experience the same degree of pain that my wife has already been through.<P>Hope that helps.

I think this is one of those questions that everyone knows the answer to but I guess it helps to hear peoples stories and chat with other who can associate (correct word?) with your pain. Everyone knows that the betrayer won't feel the magnitude of your pain. Has anyone ever passed a kidney stone? I haven't but I have seen someone who has and he was in ALOT of pain. I could see that he was in pain, agree with others that it was painful but I didn't really know how much pain he was in (nor do I want to). So I think it is one of those questions everyone can agree on - no the betrayer can't know your pain. You can try to explain it and if they are genuinely concerned (mine isn't) they will really try to understand the pain (I was bent over upset one time and she told me it doesn't hurt that bad) but they will never really know what it feels like unless it happens to them. All you can hope for is that yours is one of the ones that has a sincere comittment to forgiveness, healing and understanding.<BR>That being said what I would like to hear about are people that have had understanding spouses and what their spouses have done.

I think the pain on both sides is a lot like the kidney stone or childbirth. Which of those hurts more? I've given birth so I know that pain. But I've never passed a kidney stone. I know it's painful. Does it hurt the same way as childbirth? More? Less?<P>You can never know what it's REALLY like unless you've experienced it. We have heard from those that have experienced both sides of betrayal and from the sound of things both sides hurt. They hurt in different ways. Which one hurts more? Does it really matter? Pain is pain. Both things hurt.

Newbie, I can definitely say I have a very understanding husband!<P>He was angry and very hurt and said some things at the very beginning that may have seemed to him unfair (although I don't think they were). Once things calmed down a bit - and I did apologize (even though I felt it was pathetically inadequate to do so), expressed that I love him and want to make things work - he went on to reassure me that he does still love me very much and wants to fix things. He refused to let me take all the blame and has been actively working to try and improve our communication. He also told me (and this struck me as very important) not to assume that just because we went back to our normal routine, he's not upset anymore; and not to think that just because he's upset, he doesn't love me.<P>I should add that much of our communication (including his telling me about his discovery) has taken place via e-mail. We do also talk face to face, but for the most part we both find it easier to express ourselves calmly by writing to one another.<P>Our situation may be a little different than some, as from our first discussion with the counselor she asked me to be evaluated for bipolar (manic-depressive) disorder with a psychiatrist; maybe the possibility that there may be some influence on me beyond my control has helped to avoid bitterness and resentment; I am also very lucky to have a husband who does not feel the need to 'hurt me back' and is not very interested in pointing fingers, just in fixing things.

NoTrust<BR>Your question was<BR>"Does a betrayer ever FULLY realize the extent of damage that they have inflicted upon their spouse?" <BR>Obviously this varies from one situation to another. In my case I would have to say that my H does Fully realize the damage done by his infidelity. <P>There are two major reasons why he has come to this understanding.<P>1. He wanted me to share and explain what I was going through. He recognizes the look on my face when I am having a sad thought and he wants me to share. When I do share I try to explain it in terms that he can relate to. Analogies that he can understand.<P>2. This is the most important reason and I guess somewhat related to the first. He stopped being selfish. He stopped dwelling on his pain. He stopped thinking about how bad he felt. It wasn't all about him anymore.<P>After discovery, I was concerned only for his pain. I wanted to help him through the mess he made. I'm not saying that he doesn't still have his own pain. He just cares more about mine like I did for his when he was in the middle of the affair.<P>It is possible, my friend. He has told me more than once that NO ONE would have gone through what I went through for him. <P>I think that when we show real empathy for each other instead of concetrating on how bad we feel, it is easier to see things with a clearer perspective. <P>Have a good day.