I started reading the posts about what causes an affair. It was already pretty long when I joined it. It was very hard getting through the arguments.<P>My opinion is that it boils down to ultimate selfishness.<P>We had a bad marriage. I didn't meet his needs, he didn't meet mine. That made it harder for me to meet his which made it harder for him to meet mine ya da da da da da.<P>Unmet needs didn't unzip the zipper. My zipper didn't unzip and I was just a miserable.<P>Selfisness unzipped the zipper. He made the conscous decision to have sex with another woman. He chose to think more about satisfying himself than obeying God. He chose to think more of himself than what he was doing to our vows or to me and his children. He made this decision out of selfishness.<P>I feel vanity plays a large part, but vanity is just another form of selfishness. It is wanting something solely for yourself.<P>My H is and has always been a very selfish person.<P>Now, I don't want to start another argument. I'm not saying that all betrayers are totally selfish people. I am saying they become that way and it leads to an affair.<P><BR>

yeah, it's the addiction that causes the selfishness for many WS, but i gotta agree with you, my H is THE most selfish person i have ever known...except when he's being generous, usually for his own satisfaction...<BR>sigh

Tired LuLu:<P>Is it really selfishness as much as it is rationalization. She has not satisfied my needs so I am justified in getting my needs fulfilled by someone else. <P>Here's an example. My H has a bad temper due to high blood pressure. He would vent his rage usually on me but often on the kids as well (not physically just verbal) He would often say it was my fault because I didn't know how to handle him to resolve his anger.<BR>OK. Along comes OW who has lived with physically abusive husband and she "knows" how to handle him. She crawls up in his lap and pets him until he calms down. Am I right that he has no right to vent his rage on others at all--and certainly has no right to expect to be comforted in the middle of a rage. He has rationalized that since she can calm him down that that is a failing on my part and a further reason for him to keep his relationship with her. Circular, huh.<P>My main point is that he is not merely selfish, but actually is mentally covering his actions by rationalizing them away.<P>Buffy<BR>

TLL,<BR> I also believe it has to do with arrogance,which goes hand in hand with selfishness.After my W's affair got started,I got the"I was vulnerable","You weren't meeting my needs",or"You did this and this and that,in our marriage".So what was she?A saint?The perfect wife?I was probably just as vulnerable,as she wasn't always meeting my needs,either.So it works both ways.<BR> I not saying all betrayers are arrogant,either.I just think with some people,they are arrogant enough to have an affair,rub your nose in it,and not feel guilty about it.They don't even realise that perhaps you had enough reasons to feel like you could have cheated on them,too.<BR> --Murph

I know that someone having an affair will rationalize it as a way to justify their actions. My H would constantly tell me there was no justification and then in the next breath tell me how it was justified.<P>I don't mean to sound as if the betrayer is the only one being selfish. Marriage problems in general boil down to selfishness and inconsideration of the other spouse.<P>I'm just saying that an affair is the ultimate selfishness. Nobody goes into an affair thinking it will be what is best for others then or in the long run. They are thinking about themselves and what they need that moment.

I'm the betrayer in my marriage, and I agree, all the ifs-ands-and-buts aside, it boils down to selfishness, taking the 'easy' route (it seems easy at the time) to self-gratification.<P>Recovering takes UNselfishness of the highest degree from both partners. A big turn-around for most.

My H told me that he never meant to hurt me and I believe him. I just wish that he had realized sooner what he was falling into. Actually I think he did and he just kept going. When communication is shut down all kinds of things can happen. He shut me out a year ago...and the sad thing is I took it. I accepted it and I assumed, ok this is how our marriage is going to be. I knew something was wrong, but when I questioned him he would run me around in circles or be too busy or get angry for some reason. He was being selfish! I told him I'm suprized that I wasn't the one having an affair with the way that I was treated. My needs were not met. I am a housewife, so I don't socialize like he does. He has opportunity and he took it. I really believe that if I had the opportunity at that time, that I would possibly have done the same thing.<P>I'm focusing on our communication. If we are open and honest with each other about how we feel and what we need, and focus on each other....then maybe we just won't allow ourselves to cross that line into misery again!

You said:<BR>Nobody goes into an affair thinking it will be what is best for others then or in the long run.<P>How would you know? When I cheated, I thought I was doing my H a favor. It was very obvious that he didn't want to be married to me anymore. He said so himself. There are people who cheat when they want out, and there are people who treat their spouses like crap in other ways and hope their spouse leaves. I gave my ex a free-ticket out, and he took it. <P>So, here is your big opportunity to dump a marriage you are not happy with, and blame it on your ex. It is very easy. The rest of the world will be very sympathetic to you. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 23, 2000).]

David committed the sin of adultery AND murder to cover it up. He was a Godly man and God forgave him. <P>Ephesians 4:32 tells us "And be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake, hath forgiven you." <P>I too have a problem with pride (selfishness). In God's eyes all sins are the same. A sin is a sin. Just because someone has committed a sin that I have not, doesn't make me better than that person. James 2:10 says "For whosoever shall keep that whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."<P>I think when we humble ourselves, it is much easier to forgive and begin the healing process. When we stop asking the question "Why did this happen?" and start asking "What am I to learn from this situation?" the healthier we become.

Responding to The Student:<P>I did not treat my spouse like crap in hope that he would leave. During his EA he did make that same claim (using less colorful language), but that was the rationalization of a selfish man indulging himself in something that he knew was wrong. Although he was totally confused and muddled in much of his thinking he did manage, in accord with a pattern that he has mastered through the years, to shift much if not all of the blame to me.<P>We are still together and basically happy. However, we continue to struggle in a relationship between my overtly agressive personality and his passive agressive one. I compulsively pursue while he subtly controls the entire situation while appearing totally passive. <P>I think there is a lot of truth in the posts of Tire, Murphy, Buffy, Just Me, and Contrite. It just plain hurts that they could be so uncaring. It's also frightening to consider how they will react in the future when other chips are down. <P>Despite his weakness, I love my H and our family. I am commited as are the others on this board to coping with our obvious differences and weaknesses. Sometimes, however, I do feel that my h's selfishness causes him to be so defensive that he is always in an adversarial mode. I recognize that I am failing to deal with this positively. I read and come to these boards because I also recognize that I need help in dealing with a self centered resistance that he is not even aware of.<p>[This message has been edited by wesse (edited May 23, 2000).]

How about lack of respect????<P>Needs are not being met by the BS, the WS is being selfish.......and from my point of view.....showing no respect for his/her family....<P>

In my case, I was friends (maybe it was an emotional affair) with another member of the church. She listened when I had no other person to talk with. My W's fear of pregnancy prohibited total intimacy and after a while I stopped asking for it. Of course, the topic was discussed at the wrong time and always ruined the moment. <P> Since then, even though it is probably too late, I took care of the matter. It may not be for her benefit. The friend was willing to take her place as her ex showed her no intimacy at all. (Amazing how easy it can be to talk to someone when you share the same hurt.) If we had continued on, the families of all involved would have been hurt, not just her. THAT is why I was able to resist starting, but not fantasizing about, an EA with the women I would associate with through work. I was selfish in not being more sympathetic to her fear and not having the "procedure" sooner, and she was in NOT trusting me during intimatacy. <P>As a possible passive agressive person myself, I exerted control by coming home when I wanted. Often I would do the house work on the weekends and be gone by noon when she would get home from her training runs. Instead of talking about the things I did, she would let it slide and I then would feel that we were okay. No more arguement. Wrong!! She developed a "friendship" with a runner who is the OM, I cannot get her away from, and probably will not.<BR> That is where we are. Thanks for reading this.<P><BR>RRUNRR<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>Nobody goes into an affair thinking it will be what is best for others then or in the long run.<P>How would you know? When I cheated, I thought I was doing my H a favor. It was very obvious that he didn't want to be married to me anymore. He said so himself. There are people who cheat when they want out, and there are people who treat their spouses like crap in other ways and hope their spouse leaves. I gave my ex a free-ticket out, and he took it. <P>So, here is your big opportunity to dump a marriage you are not happy with, and blame it on your ex. It is very easy. The rest of the world will be very sympathetic to you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TheStudent - this is not intended to be combative, I'm just really curious, and don't know enough about your story yet - but I have to ask why you are here? Did you change your mind about the 'favor' of the affair, or what's going on?<BR>

TLL,<BR> You are right it is selfishness on EVERYONE's part. The other part is that the focus was not on the right individual: God.<P>If everyone's focus were on loving God which means that you obey Him, then none of us would be here. If Adam had been a real man then death would not have ever entered into the equation. We would not have to deal with the pain that we are now.<P>It was selfishness through Pride that Lucifer thought he should be bigger and better than God which is why we are all suffering. Yet, knowing Jesus as our Lord and Savior does not keep us from suffering because He suffered. When we obey Him we suffer because the world will persecute us because the world persecuted Him.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

TheStudent:<P>There is so much anger and hurt in you, isn't there. You say you 'gave your H a free ticket" to get out of the marriage, but it sounds more like you were just trying to hurt him for not loving you anymore and wanting out. <P>An affair certainly was not the answer to your problem if it had an answer. why not just a divorce? Why drag both of you through an affair? Striking out in retaliation is understandable but an affair just added another person to an already difficult situation. <P>You remind me of a cat I once saw on the side of the road. It had been hit by a car and I tried to help but it was wild with pain and wouldn't let me get near. Well, it died there in the road, alone, afraid and uncomforted, just a few feet from where help waited. <P>There are some good people on this board. Let them help..<P><BR>Buffy<P>

Buffy,<BR>There are alot of helpful people here, for sure. And there are alot of people who want to believe they are not selfish and that they are above doing anything that hurts someone else. It is to those people that my post is directed.<P>What I said was the truth (about giving my ex a free-ticket out). You ask, why not just a divorce? I've come to realize that there is no difference, really, how a divorce happens. The end result is the same. We both would have suffered, regardless. We have no children, so there is no need to maintain any level of civility for the future or maintain appearances.<P>IMO, the best possible scenario happened for him. He is rid of me, yet he can now blame me for the failure of our marriage. It will be much easier for him to find a future partner as a result. Think about it. <P>Sometimes people aren't aware of their intentions when they do something. It is only upon future reflection do things become clear. It became clear after my confession, and subsequent efforts to save the marriage, that I was not a person to my H, I was only a piece of property. In retrospect, cheating on him was the quickest way to flush this part of him out. Shocking, yes? Not something I intended at the time, but likely the "best" scenario, IMO, if a divorce was inevitable.<P>I know that I didn't do it to hurt him. I still loved him, or at least the memory of him. The OM was very similar to my ex, at least the way he was when we got married. The only difference was that the OM didn't think graduate education was a bad thing for me. <P>My ex clearly wanted a different kind of woman than me. He wanted a woman that was like his friend's wives, and they are not like me at all. He couldn't admit that his needs changed, and couldn't admit that he was punishing me for not being like his friend's wives. He couldn't be honest with himself. Like the people I post to here, he wanted to believe that all of his needs were noble and great, and my needs were somehow base and selfish. That is why I get on people when they act like that. <P>He didn't want to work on himself or the marriage either before or after my confession. Getting a divorce without an affair wouldn't have changed anything, it just would have drug out the inevitable. <P>Now, I wouldn't recommend infidelity to anyone. Mostly cause it hurt me more than it hurt him. When I talk about my marriage now, if I tell someone I cheated on him, then they believe that is the reason for the divorce, but it is so much more complicated than that. I'd rather stay "faithful" and maintain at least the appearance of being a good wife. Just like my ex gets to maintain the "appearance" of being a good husband.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 24, 2000).]

Contrite,<BR>You ask why I come here...<P>I come here to remind myself of the pain of my divorce, lest I become complacent. It also gives me an opportunity to deal with people who have similar beliefs as my ex. So, I am dealing with "him", vicariously. <P>I don't want to monopolize anymore of this thread, and don't want to get into an argument either. The point about BOTH spouses being selfish has been made, by myself and others on this thread. That is what I wanted to get across.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 24, 2000).]

Trying to, or appearing to, place ultimate blame for an affair will invariably cause arguments. <P>I am not saying that the ultimate blame must be placed on my H because he is selfish.<P>Our marriage wasn't good. We were not considerate of each other's needs, yet we were dissatisfied because our needs own needs weren't being met.<P>My point was, though that I just resolved myself to a life of complacency and unmet needs with a man that didn't consider me important, but I was still in the marriage til death do us part.<P>My H just went out and found someone else to satisfy his needs.<P>I feel that this was the ultimate selfishness on his part. His pride and personal ego comfort kept him from tackling the source of his malcontentment by coming to me and telling me what was going on and that he was being tempted sexually by another woman. He struggled with his needs and temptations alone rather than admit weakness and then had an extended affair.<P>He told me that he always felt I didn't enjoy sex so he just found another way to satisfy himself without bothering me. He actually acted as if this was an unselfish act on his part. I don't agree. It is the ultimate selfishness

TLL,<BR>Yet, the path that you have chosen is the more noble and fulfilling path: putting your devotion to the relationship first. This is what Jesus did when He died on the cross.<P>I love my W because He loves her and me. He asked me to marry ber to show her His love in this world. Remember love means putting the other person first regardless of the cost. It is NOT MARTYRDOM. It is chosing to be obedient and subservient to Jesus. It is allowing Jesus to live His life through us as He molds us into His image.<P>Yes, such topics bring out the animosity that resides in all of us. And WE ALL are selfish and the reason we are here. We need to stop giving into the Maslow hierarchy of needs concept which will never satisfy us because what we really seek is a deep personal relationship with Jesus whether we know it or not. It is the way God madde us.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited May 24, 2000).]

Tired Lu Lu,<BR>I think our situations are different. I did try to talk to my husband long before I was ever attracted to anyone else, and even after I became attracted to someone specific. <P>He told me many times through the years that I should divorce him if I was ever even attracted to someone else. I told him I was afraid of him (my H)and told him why. He said he didn't want to be married to someone who was afraid of him. End of discussion. <P>IMO, he needed an excuse to divorce me, so I gave him one. He is much better off now, like I said. He can pretend to be this wonderful person who was a "victim" of infidelity. He can pretend we had a great marriage till I screwed it up. Even after my confession, I told him I wished I could have gone to him before anything happened. He said he didn't want to hear it. Our marriage was doomed from the start. He didn't want honesty, he wanted obedience, and that is something I will never be (obedient, that is). I will also never be subservient. Those are traits that many believe "good" wives should have, and maybe they are if it's going both ways. My ex said many times that the man should "call the shots". Life is too short to spend it as someone's slave or pet.<P>Guess what? He found out the hard way that you cannot control another person. Again, not my specific intention, but a lesson I hope he learned nonetheless. <P>I am much better off now too, though. I don't have to live with someone who thinks their "stuff" doesn't stink.<P>Professorg,<BR>I agree that love means putting the other first. The hard part is figuring out what that means. Lu Lu's case and mine show that we thought we were putting the other first. Sound strange? Consider this...<P>Perhaps her husband thought that not bothering her for sex was more important than fidelity. Oops. He didn't check it out first, which he should have done. That was his mistake. <P>My ex seemed to want divorce over honesty. I did check that out first. Me? I would rather have a marriage than fidelity. In other words, I would rather have stayed married, even if my H cheated on me, than have my H be faithful and divorce me. As long as a marriage exists, then there is still the possibility of working things out. So, in this case, the "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" didn't work out too well either. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 24, 2000).]