On Saturday My wife and I talked and began to communicate about what is troubling her and where she is at in regards to working on the marriage. She explained somethings to me that were bothering her and I listened. What I did come to realize is that though the things that I have done or have neglected to do have hurt her she has absolutely refused to forgive me for transgressions.<P>For instance, she explained that when I forgot her birthday in Feb she was truely hurt. I knew she was but she never expressed any hurt. I had been planning an evening out the day after her birthday to a concert and dinner as a surprise. When I explained that I had not forgotten her birthday totally she proclaimed that the only reason I planned the night was for me. It wasn't what she wanted and had in mind. And she also stated that I should have told her how much money I was going to spend. At the time of getting the tickets and planning the night I had to tell her because she refused to get off work for the night. So the surprise was blown.<P>It seems on all situations past or present my wife backs me into a corner with two way thinking. It seems that I am in a no win situation no matter what I try, do or say. She seems to be creating justifications for her feelings on the fly and looking for reasons to escape. This is happening whenever we discuss our relationship past, present or future. Am I wrong? What do you think?<P>

john, seems it's the "fog" thing.. I know it feels like a rollercoaster.<P>I have been on the downslope this weekend. Check out my posts.<P>My H does the SAME thing. This whole nightmare began with a trip overseas with Op coworker in november. I'm sure their relationship had already crossed the lines, but it was at that point I found the intimate note from OP.<P>My H keeps coming up with vague stuff and things that aren't true about our relationship, but when he does come out with specific examples it is two way thinking.<P>He actually told me he missed me when he was on the trip (mind you the note was written there) and then said "it would have been nice if you came to the airport to meet me"!!!!! This, after we discussed at length me NOT coming due to it being late...(we have 3 small kids) and his car being there. I ended up deciding NOT to go, but instead to have the kids ready for bed since I knew he'd be jet lagged and we also met him with ballooons and welcome home banners....<BR>But I guess he wanted me to come to the airport!!!!!

Yep...When my husband finally started communicating to me after disclosure one of the first issues he brought up was the fact that he thought I made all the decisions. He never got to decide anything. He cited as an example the fact that I had asked him to wait until I graduated from college (one year) before moving 24 hours away. The move was his idea, but the fact that I had requested he wait meant I was controlling his decisions. Two weeks after he told me about controlling him, he asked me what jobs he should be applying to. Talk about confusing. I thought I wasn't supposed to have input on his life. To do so meant I wasn't letting him make his own decisions. I just responded back with whatever jobs you are interested in.

Hi John,<P>Gift-giving is precarious business even in the best marriages, but maybe I can give a little insight.<P>You say when you forgot her birthday she was hurt...you knew she was hurt, but she never expressed it. John, I know if my H forgot my birthday it would have devestated me. You obviously did have something special planned, and she did her best to put a kink in your plans...but just listen...do you see what need went unmet for her? Attention.<P>Yes, they do love to blame us for their faults. It's a fact. I got it for two years before I knew why, and I don't want to sound like some MB know-it-all, but she was telling you what she needed that day John. What would she have liked to do for her birthday? I guess we have to read between the lines constantly, and it's exhausting, but it seems like the ones on here that learned to do it have nailed the situation really well.<P>Your needs are different than hers. Listen to her and you'll hear what hers are.<BR>

Can I speak for the wife's side on this one? I have also felt the way your wife does. I have felt forgotten because gifts that were intended for me were things that just weren't anything like anything I would ever enjoy. I have felt like the gifts weren't really for me, but for him. My birthday has been forgotten and treated like an afterthought. Things that were intended to be nice gestures were not taken as such. <P>Why? Lack of communication and a lack of experience or unpleasant experiences to draw inferences from. <P>I can't speak for you wife, but in my case, my feelings were really hurt because... <P>1. A gift that YOU like might really be cool, but isn't the gift supposed to be for me? How much were you thinking about me when you bought that thing?<P>2. I have told you a thousand times that my birthday is MY BIRTHDAY. Not tomorrow, not the weekend, but that specific day. This is important to me. I have shown you this by celebrating YOUR birthday on YOUR birthday.<P>etc. etc, etc,<P>Basically, I think your wife may feel like she is not listened to. She may feel like you aren't paying attention to what is important to her. You may have a history of events which make her feel this way, so she is quick to jump to the same sighing conclusions when she sees it coming again. <P>Both contribute. If she doesn't volunteer what she wants, ask her and provide it. If you do something to upset her, ask her why, then try to explain your side of it. <P>She could do better about communicating what she wants. Listen. Repeat it in other words to make sure it is clear. What are her concerns? is it about money? the date? the gift itself? the thought it took to come up with the idea? <P>Is very type of issue became a huge communication block in my marriage. It's so easily fixed (in hindsight). I hope you can do something about this soon.

John,<BR>Have you ever apologized for the part you played in her less than thrilling birthday?<P>It's not that you intended her to feel neglected or anything else, but my mom used to tell me while I was growing up that you apologize when you have hurt someone and you didn't intend it. I used to argue with her and say, but I didn't do anything wrong? I was trying to do this...Always rationalizing my behavior when things would have settled down a lot quicker with a you know what, I see the pain you are in, and that was not the result I wanted. I'm sorry . <P>My mom says that when you don't apologize you send the message that you intended to hurt the other. <P>As a matter of fact, Dr. Harley had an article speaking to this fact in the newsletter I just got in my email.

Another counseling session last night. It went well and counselor asked us to "think" about our marraige, our committment, our love and our family (2 boys). The counselor felt that we were "feeling" rather than thinking. Try to feel our way through this and not think things thru.<P>My wife says she "feels" no love or connections. The counselor asked if she really though about it. Asked us to rethink why we got married what it meant. Asked us to express what each other expected of a wife and husband. I don't know iif my wife will follow thru; but I am determined to do so. Just for the sake of learning more of what I want out of this or a marraige.<P>Will my wife ever come around to the thinking about loving me. She constantly states that she does not know if she can. I know plan A will get her thinking but she seems in such denial of love that I just don't know what will work.<P>How long will it be? Will she ever? What will be her motivation? How can I get her unstuck and looking at things thouroughly and with realism? Our family being torn apart and I just want to keep it toghether.<P>We won't be going to counseling for 3 weeks (counselor vacation). Any thoughtful suggestions for self counseling or ideas in the interim?<P>Some insight please.<P>

I'll just say that when my H had no faith that we could be in-love again, and was so "in-love" with OP, I asked him "If you could choose who to be in-love with, what would you do?" He said he would choose to be in-love with me, in a heartbeat--not because of how he felt, but because of all the "thinking" reasons why being "in-love" with me would be preferable. I said, "thanks, that made me feel better", and we agreed to give it a good try. <P>So, we used that to agree to work on falling back in-love, using the Harley principles & q'aires (which you might try...easy to do on your own). So far, it seems to be working...at least, we are on the right path and making progress.<P>Good luck!!!<p>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited May 23, 2000).]

How do you ask these things and not seem to pushy or manipulative. I want to ask these things of my wife but am apprehensive. She has stated that she wants to feel "in love" but doesn't know how. Is she just hiding behind fear of moving forward and taking a risk?<P>There are so many things I want to say to her but can't seem to muster the courage. I am fearful of pushing her farther away. Should I just write them to her and risk the possibility of further separation.<P>I know I won't die without her love. But I do love her, my boys and am very much committed to a future based on this love. I am in knots. What is the best approach?<P>I want a new life for my family and my wife. I am hopeful. But frustrated.<p>[This message has been edited by john meade (edited May 24, 2000).]

You just do. Pick your time. Be non-threatening. Don't be "clingy", but be honest.<P>How about...<P>"Hon, I know you do not feel very hopeful right now, but I want you to know I DO love you. Let me just ask...if you could CHOOSE how to feel, would you want to be in-love with me again?"<P>She may say yes...if so, great chance to ask her to work on this stuff with you.<P>She may say no...if so, this is an opportunity to find out why not...what is it that makes falling in-love with you again something to resist?<P>As long as you can avoid LBs, talking is much better than not talking...

I spoke with my wife and asked the question about choosing to be in love with me and she said she would choose to be in love with me. But she doesn't know what or how to feel that way. I asked her what I could do to help in that respect and replied "nothing". I explained to her that I was moving back into our home on June 1. She responded by saying that she didn't think that was a good idea.<P>I then asked, what is your strategy or plan and she simply stated that she doesn't have a strategy. She is stuck. Doesn't know what to do or how to do it, if anything.<P>She did explain that she was fearful of relationship returning to the way it was before. I encouraged her that it didn't have to if we both worked at it and realized our mistakes.<P>I want to reconnect and she does also but she makes no willing effort to develop a plan or implement any actions. I reminded of Retrouvaile and asked her to research the website. She said she is not opposed to Retrouvaille and would consider going. Hope? I guess.<P>I called her agian this morning and reiterated that I was coming home becuz I loved her, the children, my family and wanted to work on the marriage. I also reassured her that I want to help her and support her, and guide the recovery process if she will let me.<P>We are stuck and can't seem to make progress in a positive direction. How can we make slow and steady progress or are we? She seems to be challenging my love every step of the way. She speaks of the marraige in such negative terms. Initially she said it was bad for 2 years, then 3 and now she says that she was struggling to make it work for 5 years. We have been married just 6 1/2 years.<P>How do you disagree with her assesment and not seem judgemental? I explained to her that focusing on the positive is more productive and that we did have some very positive events. (Childbirth (2), Montana vacation, buying a home, honeymoon, etc.)<BR>How do you convince her how to see these things?<P>She keeps repeating that she can't forget all the bad things but never really gets specific about what is/was bad. Other than my actions, decisions, attitude about myself and mostly me issues. The only thing I can change is the attitude and I am in therapy to do that.<P>Marriage counseling is helping but not to a degree that it is restoring our love. We are still focusing on him and her issues. Very little work done to visit needs, expectations, desires and wishes of either spouse. We are frozen in time. Please help.

I do not know but believe my wife was or is involved in an EA that may have gotten a little physical. No evidence or confession.<P>She has denied any involvement. However she did go to lunch with him without telling me, has worked very closely with him, went to brkfast early one morning with him and invited him to our house without my knowledge. I am somewhat distraught over this possibility.<P>I have confronted her but she has denied it with rationales such as he is married, he has a new home, a wife and a child that he loves. Like those things would stop anybody from having an affair. Her denials have never talked about her committment to me, our kids or our marraige.<P>I still believe she is hiding this from me and it is preventing our recovery. She still works everyday with him and can't seem to get the courage to work on our marriage. I don't know if I have created this or not in my mind. I don't have the answers though.<P>What can I do at this point? How do I know if she is lieing. She lied about the lunch and lied about being somewhere at a given time. I want our marriage to work but she is stuck as I mentioned before.<P>What to do?<P>Our marraige counselor has not broached the subject other than to say to me that I should let go of this affair thing. We have never discussed it in counseling. It seems taboo almost. It frustraes me. Should I ask the possible OM for an explanation of their relationship? He is her boss. Should I ask her to quit her job and find a new one? Or am I provoking something I shouldn't?<p>[This message has been edited by john meade (edited May 25, 2000).]

Feelings will follow behavior. If we act as if we are in love, it will catch up to us. Ask her to just go through the motions for a while. See if while she is pretending to have a good time, it some genuine happiness doesn't creep up in there. Happiness has a way of building on itself if it can just get a good start. I do this with my daughter, who tends to be depressed. If I can get her laughing at one stupid joke, I can get her in a good mood for the rest of the day.<P>As for moving back home, I am not sure that is a good idea either. Closeness can be good for building more closeness, but it can also alienate if done too soon. Give it some time. Compromise. What about June 15 or June 30?<P>I think it is good to have a plan. My H says he knows we need to discuss a lot of things, but he's not sitting still long enough to come up with a plan, and boy is that frustrating! If you can't get her to develop one with you, why don't you write a few things down and introduce them to her one concept at a time so it isn't overwhelming.<P>I understand her fears that everything will be as it was before. Both my H and I have that fear- strongly! I'd work this one out in the things you do and in the counseling sessions. The only proof of this is in your daily actions. Be patient. Be supportive.<P>You probably are making more progress than you know. She needs to challenge you to know that your words are real and your efforts are going to be lasting. Let her see that they are, and you will break through all of this.<P>I think it is easy to see all the bad when you are feeling bad, just as it is easy to see the good when things are good. My H does this too. I;ve found there is no way to get him to share my perspective. He is going to see it the way he wants to see it. I do the same thing as you though. I reminisce aloud and talk up the good stuff. I think it sinks in. self talk is a powerful thing. They've got this programmed in their heads that everything was so horrible. It's up to us to help them change that negative programming by replacing it with new good memories and retelling the past with a positive spin.<P>I think it is normal for the trying spouse to see all the real underlying issues before the not-trying one does. I think it is normal for the trying spouse to want things to move along more quickly than they are, but you can only work on one thing at a time. It's like building a house. You know you have the air conditioning, windows, flooring, and electrical stuff to put in, but if you don't lay the foundation first, frame it, then put on a roof, the rest of the stuff ain't never happening! Dream of the day when those windows can go in, but work on the foundation and framing. It will come together, step by step. <BR>[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you for the comments. What I have done recently is write down somethings that we can do to start moving in a better direction. I wrote down a plan for the next several months. This includes attending Retrouvaile weekend, continue counseling and later attend a marraiage encounter weekend when things have improved and balanced out.<P>I don't know what her reaction is initially, but she is open to the Retrouvaille weekend.<P>Becoming just her friend is difficult when I so want to be closer and recapture the feeling of love you once shared so freely with each other. I do miss being her friend, I do miss being her groom and I miss being her lover. I miss all of these things that we shared and I know we wanted to maintain but didn't.<P>I'll keep working on me and what I want to change in myself. We will have to see how she responds. Hopefully we will attend the Retrouvialle weekend before the end of June and get started on the process of reconciliation. I explained to her that it is a "process" and not a point in time. So it has to begin somewhere. It just won't happen at once. She agreed.<P>Any other suggestions would be helpful. Thanks.<p>[This message has been edited by john meade (edited May 26, 2000).]

Can anyone advise me on getting across to your spouse that your intentions are sincere and that you earnestly want to reconcile and build a much stronger marriage. That you want to change your behavior, attitudes and actions within the marriage relationship.<P>Even though I have been a good father and good provider for my family, I have often times failed as a friend, husband and lover to my wife. Not consciously, becuz I have always wanted to be those things to my wife. But I have seemed to let other things become more important than the relationship. I am willing to change this if given the chance.<P>Any thoughts.

John,<P>My wife had a EA (PA?) with a neighbor. After several months of Plan A'ing, we separated (I moved out). I am still in Plan A.<P>My wife too though it was too late. She feared our relationship returning to it's old pattern. No matter how much I reasured her, it was not enough to get her to commit to, at least, try. Therefore, she was unwilling to help me. She wouldn't tell me what she needed, she wouldn't tell me what I had to do, she wouldn't tell me how to reach her, she wouldn't even tell me she still loved me.<P>How am I convincing her of my sincerity? By simply going ahead and doing the things I need to do. I am making the changes in me that are necessary to make me a better friend, better father, better husband and overall better person. I have backed off doing certain things specifically for her as she basically has refused to accept these actions. However, she can't stop me from working less, enjoying my time with my sons more, seeing my friends more often, loosing weight, going to church, etc. I still apply the MB "rules" particularly the rule of protection.<P>All of these DEMONSTRATE my sincerity by actions, not by words. In spite of you telling your wife you loved her, your ACTIONS sent a differnent message. So you need to use the same "messenger" to tell her that change can happen and your committment is resolute.<P>"If we are strong, our strength will speak for itself. If we are weak, words will be no help" - John F. Kennedy

Dear John,<P>I am not sure that you could find any of my posts in the past. I answered so mnay of your questions to Samh and caj. <P>I am the betrayer. Until I could become totally honest with MYSELF, i was unable to start turning in my husbands direction. <BR>I too felt i never wanted to work on this marriage, I DID NOT LOVE my husband(so I thought)quite frankly I felt like i actually hated him. For all kindsof past baloney. I went from thinking the marrigage was crap for only 3-4 years before my affair, to the entire marriage was a farce.<P>First of all, I got tired of living a double life. I had a relationship with OM and my husband for a very long time. Finally I confessed all to my husband and wrote a letter to OM cuttingoff all ties. and gave all my heart and soul to God. I prayed for a restoration of love for my husband. <P>During all of this time, my husband remained very supportive. At times he put up with more crap than what is necessary for the human mind. I was impossible to get a long with. I said and did some very mean things during my affair. I outright went an visited, engaged in some very personal conversations with OM, planned to leave huband for OM, everything. <P>Basically I came here for support, i didn't talk to my husband a whole lot for a while. But i ws able toread some posts here and we then started talking about them. It really opened doors for us. I still carried on my affair while i was here, but it faded. as I spoke about it, it took a lotof the glamour from it. <P>my husband did the plan A, almost plan B i was such a miserable B*. But, I am learning that he can be trusted, that he has changed effectively, he is worthy of respect. Because i have been able to learn to like my hsuband, and see him for what he really is, i have begun to fall in love with him.(I did post about that recently).<P>It takes honesty, time, commitment, honest, time, commitment. period. <P>Does any of this help? If I can answer anything else, let me know. <P>mercy

Well that does help knowing what you and my wife are going through. I know I failed my wife in many respects in the marraige; such as giving her time and attention alone, talking about her needs, remaining stable emotionally and psychologically. I was trying though but failing. I am getting therapy for my esteem problems and refocusing my energies to improving myself and my outlook for myself and career. <P>She is still very distant. Although lately she has started to warm up. I have tried plan A but she wants no part of that. She says she has no needs and there is nothing I can do to help her. I did let her know that I would support her and be there for her if she needed me.<P>The love is not there. I realize my mistakes in the relationship and want to change. I know I will if I let God lead me where I need to go. My wife is reluctant and I am accepting of that right now.<P>Are we wrong, when we say to ourselves; " I know she still loves me, if she relinquishes the fear and fustration from the past"? Or are we kidding ourselves. I always knew my wife as a very loving and loyal person. Now she just claims that her love when we got married was just a "fantasy" of some sort. This is after to children, a home and siz years of some excellent family time. Admittedly the couples time was not what it should have been. We never grew together or planned our future; we just seemed to let it "roll" never giving it much thought.<P>Is there HOPE!