I agree with Doug. I think there are a lot of people that are very unhappy in their marriage but not unhappy enough to leave. They stay for different reasons and the affair is their way out. I also agree that most do not seek out om/ow intentionally. It would be a better situation if they did end their marriage before entering into an affair, but I think the likelihood that it happens that way is rare.

I think this post is finally going in the direction I hoped it would. <P>Thanks for all the opinions.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BonnieSept:<BR><B>I agree with Doug. I think there are a lot of people that are very unhappy in their marriage but not unhappy enough to leave. They stay for different reasons and the affair is their way out. I also agree that most do not seek out om/ow intentionally. It would be a better situation if they did end their marriage before entering into an affair, but I think the likelihood that it happens that way is rare. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>They don't seek OW/OM intentionally because they aren't aware that they are selfish uncaring people. IT is because the only person they truly care about is themselves thus the selfishness. Yet, in their minds they think they are doing what is best while attempting to get a need met that really isn't being met because it does not get them any closer to God than where they were in the first place.<P>We need to get off the hedonistic track. It is much more pleasing to the soul to put others first event hough it means suffering a little thus your comment on not being unhappy enough to leave. Yet, this line of thinking is why the affair occurred in the first place.<P>If I said this to strongly, please forgive me. It is why we are all here. We need to think of others, ALL OTHERS and stop trying to get our PERCEIVED needs met. Our real needs are being met by God. It is those WANTS that confuse to be needs that we are rteally trying to meet.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Huh? What's up with this whole thread?!? <P>A couple is divorcing, so the STBX wife encourages the STBX husband to post here at the Marriage *Builders* site. He takes this opportunity to tell everyone how hunky-dory his new relationship is and how all men who have affairs are not bad guys. I truly don't think that I have heard anyone here say that *all* people who have affairs are bad.<P>Then the guy checks back every few minutes to see what reaction he has gotten and praises those who agree with him while chiding those who do not agree and taking every opportunity to blame his STBX wife. <P>Then the STBX wife then writes and tells everyone to stop beating up on the poor man, that SHE HAS been a monster in this STBX relationship! Everyone then takes sides and starts textually (Well, it can't be verbally since we aren't verbalizing) abusing each other, dividing along predictable lines. Does this whole thing seem strange to anyone else?<P>As for the phone thing, in the state where I live, there are plenty of people who are too poor to be able to afford a phone in their home. They have children too and do care about their welfare. One weekend without a phone isn't too bad in the big scheme of things. Doesn't Mia have a cell phone? Couldn't she have borrowed yours, EM? It *was* a really immature stunt for TL to cut off Mia's phone service, but not the traumatic end of the world.<P>Sorry if I sound b**chy, it just seems to me that if everything is settled, why post here? You don't need a single validation from any outsider, EM, if you know that you have done the best thing for yourself. Looking for validation outside of yourself only stirs up trouble.<p>[This message has been edited by Dancer812 (edited May 24, 2000).]

EM - You don't mind if I take a crack at this "what's up with this post" again, do you?<P>Dancer - I believe that what you are witnessing are two people who have ACTUALLY realized that it is not as "cut and dried" as "getting divorced, move on!!"<P>That is not how people should handle things.....<P>First, people need to evaluate themselves and come to an understanding of what went wrong and what they each need to do to better their own selves both as individuals and future partners for someone else.<P>Second, there are children between them. They will always have that bond and contact and must develop a healthy relationship with each other to keep a loving parental relationship going for the future.<P>They show that they have really learned some of these MB principles!!! The biggest is to learn to analize yourself and I believe that these interactions help them do just that. As a bonus, we get to witness and learn from their situation as they went through it and now as they re-establish a different kind of relationship with each other and with themselves!!!<P>I, again have to say that I am very grateful.<P>They have a lot of work to do and are doing it!!!! A relationship is a part of us....it doesn't just get "moved on" from when a divorce is on.<P>That is where people fail to get the most out of the terrible things they go through in life....they don't learn how to grow from them!!!!<P>There's such a tendency to "move on" so quickly (which is a form of running away!) that they take all their bad behaviors, miscommunications, hurt, pain, confusion, etc right along with them!!!! Talk about baggage!!!!<P>Doing it this way, with as civil a closure to the "old" relationship and a considerate establishment of a new kind of relationship is how people truly can live in their futures instead of establishing futures with the baggage of the past. <P>I am not saying that they are at this point yet.....but if they keep going with this, they will be eventually. <P>Hugs and I hope that I was able to explain a little about how this is a good "thread"!!<P>Sheba<P>PS - You're welcome TL....I think of you often and do follow when you post. You need to post more frequenty though!!! We like to watch you grow!!<BR>HUGS.<p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited May 24, 2000).]

Well - this is very interesting!! Yes, I can understand how some people are unhappy in their marriages. I was, too. Unhappy enough to think about leaving, but I still loved my husband, had hope that we could work it out, and thought it was important to honor my vows as long as I was legally married. Unfortunately, he made the decision alone that our marriage was over, had an affair, and then walked out, without giving our marriage a real chance. The marriage vows I took stated for better (when needs are met and I am happy) or worse (when needs are not being met and I am unhappy), not "as long as I get what I want out of it." What is so terrifying about being alone, about making a decision on whether or not to stay in your marriage because of the marriage itself, not because you want to be with someone "perceived" as better than the spouse? This type of thinking is really fantasy - you are not more likely to be happier with another person in the end, especially if you have not changed yourself, and are a person who cannot honor their vows, act responsibly and be honest with yourself and your spouse. If you are unhappily married and meet someone who makes you realize how unhappy you are, fine - before getting too emotionally involved and/or sexually involved, go to your spouse, and honestly clear the air, get help, or whatever you have to do until you and your spouse are satisfied that you have done your utmost to save the marriage. If you then decide the marriage cannot be saved, tell your spouse you want out, move out or make whatever arrangements that are mutually satisfactory, and at that point, you become free to pursue another relationship. This trying to "hedge one's bets" in marriage with infidelity is a gross injustice against one's spouse, one's children, if there are any, and oneself. Just because you were unhappy and didn't have the self-awareness to face it before, this gives you the justification to have an affair? This rationalization by so many is the reason why there are so many affairs! Self-restraint never hurt anyone. If this OP is so wonderful, and cares about you, they will respect your marriage vows and wait until you are free. How could you trust a person who does otherwise? Respecting your marriage and honoring your vows is what we should all strive for, not just getting our perceived "needs" met. Our society really is just about what we can all get for ourselves, with no thought to how our actions affect other people, especially those who love and trust us. No matter how unhappy you are in your marriage, your spouse does not deserve to be cheated on, lied to, and then dumped, especially if they have tried to save the marriage and have honored their end of the marriage vows. You may consider your marriage over, but what about your spouse? To unilaterally make such a decision is cruel and disrespectful of your spouse.<P>I know this is a strong viewpoint, and in today's world, marriage vows don't mean a lot, but they should. Honesty, trust, and respect are things that we owe our spouse, by virtue of our wedding vows. You do not take these things away just because you are unhappy, or even if they have violated the marriage vows first. You owe your spouse these things, until you have tried everything to save your marriage and have told your spouse that you can no longer stay in the marriage. End of discussion!!!!

Sheba - I will make a separate post tomorrow of my replies. Thanks for the suggestion!!

Lady M, and Sheba,<P>I posted a reply to Tired LuLu thread about "Selfishness caused it all - every bit of it" I think I verbalized my perception of why an affair happens quite well. I hope you both get a chance to read it and respond to Tired LuLu's question about why an affair happens. While I agree that some form of selfishness is present to want to pursue an affair, it is not the sole reason involved.<P>I'm glad that perhaps some people will read through these posts here and see that alot of growth and understanding, especially on my part has transpired between myself and my stbx. If you don't believe me, please search my previous posts and read the hatred and vindictive tone with which I wrote them. Sheba is right, we need to continue a relationship that will never be a "marriage" but more of mutual respect as the mother and father of our children. I'm sorry some of you don't understand this. It took a long time for me to "get it".

Dancer....I agree with you....<P>TL....whenever I read your post, you are always blaming yourself. Sure, you contributed to the downfall for your marriage, BUT your H (and yes, he is still YOUR H, even though you will soon be getting divorced) is in an affair. He made that choice 100%.<P>Of course some people react out-of-character, and I'm sure that you acted irrationally because of the pain you were in. Tell me please...anyone who is a betrayed spouse, who hasn't acted out-of-character when their spouse is involved in an affair.<P>I wanted to beat the crap out of my H and the OW when I found out about it. That is out-of-character for me. I had suicidial thoughts. That again, is out-of-character for me. All of this was brought out because of the pain I was in.<P>I know that you are supporting your H in all of this...as if it is a justification for his affair. But, I'm getting tired of him exclaiming all of your faults just to justify his affair. It really IS sickening!<P>IMO, while your H is STILL married to you....his affair is NOT justified.<p>[This message has been edited by NoTrust (edited May 24, 2000).]

TL....I hope that everything will work out for you. I'll be praying for you.....HUGS....

TL - I will go check out Tired LuLu's thread....it look's interesting!!<P>NoTrust....Deep Breaths!!<P>I really don't think that TL is saying what she is to JUSTIFY the affair of EM.<P>I think she is saying it to let us know that she is now working past the pain she was in and is taking stock of what she needs to figure out for HERSELF about HERSELF!!!<P>She did not do ALL that she could have in the marriage....she needs to know why that was. She has grown to the point of being ready to examine it. That is a wonderful thing NT!!!<P>You are absolutely right that nothing justifies an affair.....<P>You cannot tell me that there aren't things that can EXPLAIN what led up to EM choosing badly for the marriage. <P>There is a big difference between justification and explaination!!!<P>EM chose badly, many people do when they are weak. EM has to look into his weakness "dealing" himself....and I am sure that he will. That is also what TL is doing!!<P>She was weak in a different way.....<P>Affairs are like a crushed town at the bottom of a mountain after an avalanche......when they come to see what happened - they don't just look at the town and snow, but they go to the top and inspect the whole mountain!!<P>Is it wise to condemn because someone's weakness got the better of them? If so, then that would condemn all of us for something.<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba

LOL Sheba! I knew that you would comment on my recent post. You are sometimes too funny!<P>I've been on MB for over a year now and I have also followed TL's posts. I could feel how angered she was about the entire thing and couldn't get past that anger.<P>However, I feel that EM knew that Mia would be there if it didnt work out with TL. I bet that EM didn't even write a "NO CONTACT" letter. Wasn't it Mia that broke it off with EM?<P>I feel that EM didn't give it his ALL to help TL work out her frustration. After all, isn't it EM who had the affair?<P>Sure, TL contributed to the downfall of her marriage, but when a spouse betrays you, doesn't that feel worse than anything ever imagined?<P>If TL is the type who has a quick temper and frustrated & hurt from EM's affair, how can EM expect her to heal so quickly from this and start treating him so kindly??<P>Their marriage didn't deterioriate overnight...and neither will it recover in less than a year.<P>Isn't it interesting that he is already back with Mia??<P>I don't think that it is nice of EM to be bashing TL saying, "Well...she put me/us in credit card debt, TL did this...TL did that....."<P>People work it out, or at least try to...they don't just "give up" on each other.<P>I don't think that EM used that time that he was away from Mia to use the tools necessary to rebuild his marriage. Maybe that caused frustration for TL. Maybe EM was exhibiting withdrawal over Mia and TL couldn't handle it.<P>This is truly sad. It's a shame that both didn't give it more time to try to recover from this. I really think that eventually, it could have worked.

Girlfriend,<P>GRASPING at spelling errors???<P>I didn't have to grasp too hard. The irony of you criticizing another's intelligence, while simultaneously displaying your lack of education, was pretty obvious.<P>Your other comment doesn't deserve comment.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited May 25, 2000).]

TL, I probably didn't express myself clearly, so I will try to clarify what I meant when I said that I didn't "get it". <P>*Of course* you and EM have to develop a working relationship in which you both do everything possible to make sure your children are able to rely on and spend time with both of their parents and have support to get through the breaking up of their home. I didn't mean to imply that you and EM should battle on into eternity. What disturbed me was this: If everything is settled, over and done, what was the point of EM posting a message, the main theme of which seems to be that not all people who have affairs are "Bad People". He was not asking for advice or help, nor was he offering help to anyone else. If his tone had been, "Boy were we confused, but the three of us are now going to work together to get through this - here's how...", it would have seemed normal. EM seemed to be posting entirely to justify his decisions. Even that might have seemed normal, but he went on to say, in essence, "My wife acted like a witch and drove me away and even SHE admits it".<P>I understand that it is a big breakthrough to understand one's own part in the dissolution of a marriage. I know that I spent many long, agonizing nights realizing that I had fallen WAY short of doing things right in my marriage and had definitely contributed to its weakness. Your realization shows that you are definitely on a journey of healing and self-realization, which is wonderful! You are strong and brave to go on this journey and your next relationship, should you choose to start one, will benefit from your new knowledge. At this point, it makes no sense for your husband to enumerate your shortcomings in a public forum - it's water under the bridge now.<P>That's what bothered me. I just didn't understand what the point of the whole thing was. It was kind of like waving a red flag at a pasture full of angry bulls... Just my personal opinion of course, which is ultimately unimportant to anyone but me. <BR>Best of luck in your new life!<p>[This message has been edited by Dancer812 (edited May 25, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug:<BR><B>So, saying that one should get divorced before starting an affair, seems a little absurd to me. <BR> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, meeting someone new and getting excited about them is a catalyst- a catalyst to see what is wrong in your current relationship! Having an affair BEFORE leaving is what is absurd. If you really feel that strongly about this other person, why wreck your family over it and end up with a homewrecking OP that you can't trust? Geez! Do honor and integrity fall so easily?

Thanks Sheba and Doug for the wisdom you bring to this thread.<P>TL, I think it shows real maturity to share that you did not choose to let go of the anger. It feels so overwhelming sometimes that we feel we have no choice, but we do. Jennifer Harley told me once that I was a "victim" of his infidelity, but I made myself a victim over and over when I relived it. I could instead choose to focus on the future that I wanted, and now I am living that future.<P>There are many who do not want to let go of the anger/pain, who do not want to see how the marriage was already in trouble. Please, listen to these two sharing from their hearts.<BR> <BR>I see two people openly sharing what they have learned for the benefit of anyone listening. I personally don't see them justifying or attacking each other in any of this.<P><P>------------------<BR>Cindy

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by popeye:<BR><B> Yes, meeting someone new and getting excited about them is a catalyst- a catalyst to see what is wrong in your current relationship! Having an affair BEFORE leaving is what is absurd. If you really feel that strongly about this other person, why wreck your family over it and end up with a homewrecking OP that you can't trust? Geez! Do honor and integrity fall so easily?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I didn't say it wasn't the honorable thing to do. By 'absurd', I meant that there was almost no chance of it happening that way.<P>Without an OP already in the picture, there is no point of comparison, no alternative that, in fantasy, is a better option. Without that "better option", other factors such as familiarity, obligations, child-rearing, etc. almost always hold the marriage together--no matter how bad one or both partners perceive it to be. In other words, without the fantasy of a better life with OP, there is usually no frustration strong enough to upset the applecart by asking for a divorce.<P>When the OP initially enters the picture, it is usually as a 'friend'. Only when and if this 'friendship' grows into something it shouldn't, will the spouse begin to think about the OP as a 'better option' and possibly consider the 'merits' of divorce. But by then, the emotional affair is well underway.<P>As always, IMHO! <p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited May 26, 2000).]

Schizzo,<P>Thank you for saying exactly what the point of my starting this conversation was all about. Sheba, Doug, New Beginning and a few others can see that I did this after talking with TL about what all these other people write about and thinking sharing our "story" as it has evolved would be of benefit to some. I have not tried to justify my affair. I accept 100% responsibility for it. I have not bad mouthed TL - in fact I've posted things here that I know she herself has said at one time or another. Nor do I feel she is allowing me to feel I was ever justified in having an affair. Believe me, quite the contrary. <P>We are all adjusting to the new roles we now have as co-parents, extended/blended families, and all that comes with that territory. Just wanted to share some of our experiences with you.

Doug,<P>One of the reasons why an affair is wrong is that the "better option"-love can not be compared to your current mature love. Janis Abrahms Spring author of "After an affair" describes how your body produces chemical substances during this first stage of an affair (amphetamin like) and later endorphins. One of the effects is that you will give all your lover says/does a positive prefix while you give all your spouse says/does a negative prefix.<BR>Your "better option"-love will not stay like that forever, but when you're in it I think you refuse to admit that to yourself (since you're in a fog).<P>I understand that it doesn't always work the way that your spouse gets out of the marriage before finding a new partner, but it should. There's no excuses for an affair.<P>BTW: I recommend this books to all people that take interest in this discussion. It's known as a very balanced book and it's quite good at describing how both parts feel.<P>scandinavian

Doug,<BR>Get over yourself Dictionary Boy! <P>There is a HUGE difference between education and intelligence. <P>Aren't you late for a spelling bee or something?