I've got a little (OK... not so little) problem. I need the help of someone who knows the MB principles nearly as well as Dr Harley. <P>That would be you. <P>I don't want to post the whole story if you're not here. Actually, I don't want to post it at ALL, but I will if you're still around. <P>I REALLY don't know what to do; I even called the radio show yesterday, but Dr Harley's on vacation until next week. I think this will be resolved, for good or ill, before then. <P><BR>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited May 26, 2000).]

Post away, old friend...<P>

Thanks, K...<P>Here’s an edited version of something I sent out via email to a few people yesterday. I actually initially posted my request in the “Resolving Conflict” section, but figured there would be a better chance of your seeing it here... <P>********************************<P><BR>I’ve known this guy “Scott” since 1983. He was my Pledge Trainer at my Fraternity; basically a Pledge’s mentor during pledging. Great guy; fun to be around, and alla that. Knew him BEFORE I met my wife. In fact, the night in 1984 when my wife called the house looking for my best friend (who she had met a couple months earlier, but had never hooked up), Scott answered the phone, came into my room, and said, “these two girls are coming over! Woohoo!” He got wasted and passed out, and my wife and I wound up together from then on.<P>Scott got married in 1986-7. My wife didn’t even know he had a girlfriend until we got the invitation, even though his W was a Little Sister in the fraternity, just like my wife later became. One quick note, and I don’t think this is really relevant, but at a party in 1985 or 86, after I had gone to sleep (read: passed out in my room). Scott told my wife if she “didn’t watch it, he was going to kiss her.” She dared him to, and he gave her a little kiss. She said, “You call that a kiss?” grabbed him and laid into him, smoochies only. She told me this about 2-3 years later, and it really didn’t bother me at all, as I knew she was with ME.<P>From about 1987-88 on, my wife and Scott were better friends than Scott and I were. That’s not to say we *weren’t,* but they just seemed to get along and have fun, and to enjoy talking to each other. He and his wife moved to Texas in 1990 or so; I can’t remember if they came to our wedding in 1991 or not, but I think so. They have two kids older than ours. Scott has a tendency to get REALLY drunk, and lament his life. I’m talking so drunk I’m surprised he can dial the phone. Over the years, he would call his friends back here while he was incredibly drunk, barely able to talk and cry about his life. When he would call us, if I answered the phone he might talk to me for 5-10 minutes, then talk to my wife for a couple hours. If she answered the phone it would be the same, but he wouldn’t talk to me at all. These calls would come 3-4 times a year, and didn’t bother me at ALL... they were friends, and I supported that.<P>OK... more specific as we get closer to the present. Spring of ’98, my affair ends, and we start rebuilding. Many raw feelings, of course. Summer of 1998, his wife had an affair and filed for divorce. Many drunken phone calls. In October, divorce finalized.<P>The week before Christmas, he called and asked my wife to talk to ME. That should have been my first clue, but we were friends, right? Due to the divorce and his moving out, he had over-extended himself, and needed to borrow some cash, western union. $175; no big deal. He’d pay me back when he got his Bonus right after Christmas. I was honored to help him, and said, “How about $200, just to be sure? More?” I sent it off WU on my credit card, with a $40 fee. Jackals. No problem whatsoever.<P>A month came and went, and I finally sent him an email, asking him what was up. Told him if he needed more time, to just let me know; he could have as much as he wanted. Nothing in return. A week later, sent the same thing; “It’s NOT a problem, just let me know what’s going on.” My wife was more worried that he was OK, so a week later I called him. No answer, but I left him a message on his voicemail. A bit terse, but deserved. He called me back and said he was fine, and the check would be in the mail that very day.<P>Of course it wasn’t. By this point in time, it wasn’t about the money, it was about the complete lack of respect he’d shown to someone who was trying to help him out of a tough situation. All I wanted was for him to let me know what was going on. It was February, and I told him all he had to do was say, “I can’t pay you until I get my Tax Refund,” or “I can’t pay you right now, who knows when.” Yeah, I would have been upset, and it WOULD have gone back to being about the money, but it was about being lied to and manipulated by a supposed friend.<P>At this point I sent him a nastygram, telling him I basically felt screwed over. I’m REALLY good at the guilt trips when I want to be. He replied in a way that made ME feel SOOOoooooo guilty, and told me he had to go get some $0.01 stamps as the rate had just gone up, but it would be in the mail the next day. As I felt so guilty, I believed him.<P>Of course, there never was any intent to send it. About 2 months later, after NO contact, no explanation whatsoever, I sent him the final email. I can’t remember exactly what I said, but one phrase sticks in my mind... “The next time you’re sitting in your garage, so drunk you can barely talk and feeling sorry for yourself, as you reach for the phone to call someone to console you on your horrible life, I want you to remember one word: Karma. And then call someone else.”<P>He didn’t reply. It truly, honestly wasn’t about the money, it was about being lied to, manipulated and suckered. It was about him coming to ME instead of my wife or one of his friends he didn’t WANT to lose. It was about pushing your friends away and treating them like that at a point in your life when you need your friends more than ever.<P>We haven’t heard from him since March of 1999 or so. It was brought up in counseling, since I asked my wife if she would ever reply to him if he wrote her, and she said “Of course. He’s my friend.” I explained how it felt to not have the support of her after my being treated like that, and I thought it was very disrespectful that she would support HIM but not me. She said that was my problem, but hadn’t talked to or heard from him, to my knowledge.<P>Until Wednesday. She forwarded him and email she received, and got a reply, which she forwarded to me afterwards at my request. <P>My wife had the best response when I was lamenting on getting screwed over by this guy... “What do you expect? It’s SCOTT!” Concise, and to the point. Likely why he knew he couldn’t go through her. So she always KNEW he was a loser.<P>On NY Eve, we had friends over, and all the guys were in our fraternity when we were younger. When we were drinking after midnight, we started getting into a talk about what happened to Scott. Sides were taken; half on my side, half on my wife’s. “We all know Scott is a drunk and a loser, you need to be a supportive friend!” and “WhoDat, you did the right thing... there’s no way this guy should be allowed in your life again.” My wife was silent, but later stood by her assertion that she’d “Do whatever she wanted, and if you don’t like it, that’s your problem. If I want to talk to him, I will.” At that point, she hadn’t.<P>Flash forward to Wednesday, when she called me up. “I got something in my email that made me think of Scott, and I sent it to him, and got something back. I was wondering if you’d like to see it.” I said no, I didn’t *care* what he was doing, but that I appreciated her telling me she had emailed him out of the blue. I was NOT a happy camper, but didn’t want to lovebust and punish her for being honest. <P>My lovebusting would come later, when we got home. <P>On the drive home, I was *pissed* and getting worse. I still feel it is so incredibly disrespectful what she is doing. I got home after picking up the boys. I wanted to let her know how I felt betrayed, but at the same time didn’t want to punish her for being honest about telling me about sending the email.<P>So she gets home, I’m tense, and I tell her about my quandary. Fight, of course, ensues. We both get snotty, her saying “of COURSE it’s about money!” Pretty much sounding like she believes the whole Clinton thing was about sex, too. No listening involved on either of our parts. Fight escalates to the point where I say, “If (oldest son’s) Open House wasn’t tonight, I’d be OUT of here.” She just says, “meet us at school, then.” She then brings out the BIG GUNS. Says, “So let me get this straight... someone’s going through a bad time in their life, lies, manipulates and screws people over, and we’re supposed to just give up on them? Because I know someone ELSE who was a lot like that...” At this point I lose it, but luckily walk away.<P>Yeah, that’s right... two years of working my backside off, and she threw my affair back in my face.<P>I got dressed, and was gonna leave, and spend the night at the Motel 6 by my work. But then there was that pesky(thankful?) open house... I was playing with (the baby) in the living room, and my wife came up and wanted to hold him. I said, “Of course (and this is the only thing I really regret saying), I’ll never hold the kids against you after we get a divorce.”<P>We had dinner, walked to (oldest son’s) school, but I really didn’t say too much to her the rest of the night. A couple sentences about whatever we were watching on TV, but that’s about it. She seemed to have almost forgotten it, or at the very least it was a non-issue. Thursday morning, after I went running she got up to go, and said, “You didn’t wake me up to go running.” My only response was, “Huh.” I DID still do my normal morning stuff I do for her... put her towel over the shower door instead of laying my wet one on it(a small thing, but one of her LoveBuster’s... I actually did it without thinking, then put it back, but thought better of it and did the non-lovebuster thing), and made the bed. Fed (the baby) and got ready to take him to daycare. <P>When I left for work yesterday, I took (the baby) in to give her a kiss. As affection is my #1 emotional need, she’s been, over the last year, very good about giving me kisses as often as possible. She gave (the baby) his kiss, and as I turned to go, said, “Don’t *I* get a kiss?” My only reply was, “Nope.” I just didn’t *want* to give her a kiss... not to punish her (as that would be more of a punishment to me), but because I didn’t *want* to.<P>I don’t think she realizes how angry I am at her at this time.<P>Last night... no conversation at ALL. I had moved our counseling appointment up to next week, and she just asked "Why did you move it up?" "Because of the Scott thing." She came back with the, 'why do we need to talk to (counselor) about that?' look, so I quickly said, "But I guess there's really nothing to talk *about,* is there?" She just said, "Nope," end of conversation for the night. And this was before dinner.<P>I know your first question: Is she having an affair with this guy? No, I don’t think so. I truly don’t think she’s talked/emailed him for a year and a half. Is it an unhealthy emotional attachment though? Unhealthy? No. That part really IS my problem. Emotional attachment? Of course. *Could* it bloom into an affair? I think that’s my fear. One of the things I said last night is obviously I haven’t been doing as good a job of righting this ship as I thought (and have been told in counseling by both her and our counselor). No reply. And of course, Dr Harley says that we all have Lovebank accounts with everyone we interact with, and fill those emotional needs, and you WILL fall in love.<P>I just don’t understand why, after a year and a half, she felt the need to contact him. It was a slap in the face of everything I’ve been trying to accomplish, of all the work we’ve been doing. She’s not nearly the believer in MB I am, but has tried her best to meet some of my Emotional Needs. In counseling, we’ve even said we need to re-do and fine tune the questionnaires, as so much has changed in the year since we did them.<P>At this point in time, I feel like becoming the perfect husband. By that, I mean showing her just how unlike MOST men I really am, by NOT doing all those things I actually enjoy doing that most guys don’t: taking care of the kids, cooking, making the bed... just being a “regular guy.” I also think a trial separation, with her doing all the work she never sees me do would really open her eyes. Do I feel unappreciated? Yep.<P>Our anniversary is coming up in two weeks, and that is the day of our next counseling appointment. I need to move the appointment up, as I don’t think we’ll be talking before then... about anything. At this point, being a “regular guy” includes “forgetting” the anniversary. I think you know they kind of guy I am, and how I go overboard on this stuff. Call me Mister Emotion. Ignoring it would be the biggest slap in the face I can think of.<P>*sigh* I won’t, but it’s tempting.<P>I also want to just do whatever I want, and not take HER feelings into account on anything. I know... counter-productive. But what I’ve been doing over the last two years all seems to have been for naught.<P>************************<P>First off, Kel(one of the oldtimers here, for the new folks) has already reminded me of the Golden Rule: Don’t lend out any gold you don’t intend to ever see again. And I know that... but let me reiterate... it’s not about $$$ with Scott, it’s about lack of respect, and my Wife’s indifference in the face of that. It’s about HER writing him after a year and a half... it’s about... well, likely my fear that he’ll meet her emotional needs, and we both know where THAT leads. It’s about my fear that if I do NOTHING, I’ll be pushing her away.<P>Soooo... can you see my problem? Any advice? Chris? Sheba? Terri? Dazed? Doug? Other oldtimers who remember my story? I know what you’ll say first... "Treat it like a budding affair, and do Plan A" Well, what on earth have I BEEN doing for the last two years!<P>I think what bugs me the most right now is that SHE contacted HIM. I can almost (almost) understand a response should he have contacted her. But why did SHE write him after a year and a half, KNOWING how I felt about it?<P>I just don’t get that part...<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited May 26, 2000).]

WhoDat:<P>My first inclination is to "tell you so" for joining a fraternity. I joined, went through hell week, and THEN decided that I didn't need them (yikes---that made me Mr. Popular!).<P>OK, on to the real issue:<P>Regardless of HOW you feel Scott treated you, I think your actions (and emotions) are off base here. A friend has disappointed you, and you responded with "lovebuster" (not that you're married to him). Did you ever think that maybe he didn't want to share with you what was "going on"? Maybe he was ashamed. Or he didn't want you dragged into it. Or that he just couldn't be bothered---all he wanted was the money.<P>Regardless, I would say that you overreacted. Let it pass. Forgive him. That doesn't mean you have to answer the phone the next time he calls you in a drunken stupor, but you're letting him push lots of your emotional buttons. Remember---forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. You give HIM the $200 to learn that lesson; it's a great investment.<P>On to your behavior with your wife:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>At this point in time, I feel like [I'm] becoming the perfect husband.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You really should give Steve Harley a call. Whenever I'm feeling particularly superior in my marital skills---a call to Steve always helps put the proper perspective on things. From what you've illustrated here (and I know that this is a snapshot), I'd say you're doing a TERRIBLE job as the "new and improved" WhoDat. Not because you're not meeting needs---because you are. But because you're LOVEBUSTING, and this is always worse. I see tons of disrespectful judgements, some angry outbursts, a couple selfish demands.<P>You may have been working very hard over the last couple of years, but I'm very concerned that you've been putting effort into areas that may not have been that important to your wife. How do you think your wife feels when you say or do:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If (oldest son’s) Open House wasn’t tonight, I’d be OUT of here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course (and this is the only thing I really regret saying), I’ll never hold the kids against you after we get a divorce<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You didn't get her to go running with you...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>actually did it without thinking, then put it back, but thought better of it and did the non-lovebuster thing<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She gave (the baby) his kiss, and as I turned to go, said, “Don’t *I* get a kiss?” My only reply was, “Nope.” I just didn’t *want* to give her a kiss... not to punish her (as that would be more of a punishment to me), but because I didn’t *want* to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now WhoDat---how much "romantic love" are you building with this punishing behavior? Duh. If I had a pole long enough to reach you, I'd give you a couple whacks with it. In fact (and you're going to hate this)---you know who you remind me of with this behavior??? D99h!!!<P>You're having a major-league Taker-itis attack here, and you're going to need to stuff your Taker back in the bottle. Again---from what I see---your punishing your wife because of the thoughtless behavior of contacting some loser who really is of no threat to your marriage. Just a threat to your manhood (and not really even that). Of course, if you continue in your prosecution of this "federal case", I wouldn't be surprised to find that you DID drive your wife to have an affair with Scotty-boy; if for no other reason than to piss you off.<P>I STRONGLY URGE YOU TO APOLOGIZE to your wife. Immediately, using whatever "extraordinary" measures it will take with her. Flowers, dinner, a new Lexus---whatever. You need to stem the damage from this lovebusting session that you did---remember, it doesn't take a long time to ruin a good Plan A.<P>Basically---your wife never "POJAed" to not contact Scott. Granted, she shouldn't have---but when she did, she gave you as much information as possible. I'd give her about 10% of the blame for this one---you own the rest.<P>I'd also suggest that you might want to try the Harley's counseling---you might find it more "action/results oriented" than your current situation. The bottom line is that you're only as successful a husband as your wife says you are (and vice versa). I can imagine that she'd say you've got quite a bit of work to do. And you WILL thank her for that information---and then get back to work with a concrete plan of action. OK???<P>Your (tough) pal,<P>"K"

Oooh... pulling out the D99 stick... now you’re getting nasty... <P>Thanks, K...<P>A correction, of something you corrected ME on...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><I> At this point in time, I feel like [I'm] becoming the perfect husband. <BR></I><BR> <BR>You really should give Steve Harley a call. Whenever I'm feeling particularly superior in my marital skills---a call to Steve always helps put the proper perspective on things. From what you've illustrated here (and I know that this is a snapshot), I'd say you're doing a TERRIBLE job as the "new and improved" WhoDat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh, I absolutely KNOW I was lovebusting in a big way, and I NEVER said I was becoming “perfect.” Your added word changed the whole meaning of the paragraph. I meant I felt like just saying, “Screw it!” and becoming IMperfect; the caricature of a man in a relationship. Becoming someone who does no housework, only goes to work and mows the yard, and lets the wife do the “woman’s” work. Pretty much the opposite of what I am. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The bottom line is that you're only as successful a husband as your wife says you are (and vice versa). I can imagine that she'd say you've got quite a bit of work to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, quite the opposite. My W has told me innumerable times that my improvements over the last two years are nothing short of remarkable. Counselor too. I take them at their word, and I DO feel better about myself and my place in the marriage. I know the last three days have undone a lot of that, but I certainly feel provoked. Not justified perhaps, but provoked. Yes, I DO have a lot of work to do because of this, but not because of previous behaviors. At least no more work than in any healthy relationship. I’ll NEVER just let it go into “coast mode” again.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> You may have been working very hard over the last couple of years, but I'm very concerned that you've been putting effort into areas that may not have been that important to your wife.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually I ask her, and we DO have tentative plans to get together and fine-tune the questionnaires. But she tells me I am, for the most part, right on track. If she’s not giving me honest feedback, then I’m truly lost, as I have nothing to gauge current behaviors against. Communication is tremendous...with the exception of the last couple days.<P>BTW... 2 of your 5 examples you took as opposite of the way they were written... they were actually GOOD things. I realize the other three were bad enough by themselves, and I have no excuse. Yep... LoveBusted bigtime, and didn’t know a way out. That’s why I posted, and that in and of itself is indicative of just how much I’ve changed over the last few years... admitting when I’m wrong, and asking for help.<P>Scott and any relationship I may have with him (read: none) are immaterial. But I DO like the idea of buying forgiveness as a gift for myself. Do I LIKE that she contacted him? Duh... of course not. But she WAS honest about it, and if she wants to continue to be, that’s a big plus. I just wonder that no matter HOW much work I do, no matter HOW many needs I meet over the years, will she bring up my affair 20 years down the road, as ammunition in an unrelated argument?<P>Oh... and for the record, my W thinks the POJA is the biggest crock ever written. *shrug* No chance of ever working that into the relationship. I’d like to try it by making the affair off-limits in any non-related fights we may have in the future.<P>One completely unrelated comment... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> remember, it doesn't take a long time to ruin a good Plan A.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So which is it? You spent most of the post chiding me for NOT doing a good plan A, then say I could blow it? LOL... Yeah... you DID only get a snapshot with this. We’ve got a few issues left over from my affair, but for the most part there are no LoveBusters, and we meet each other’s Emotional Needs pretty well. We communicate VERY well, and are consistently giving each other little pointers on how to make things better if they start to veer off course. There are exceptions, of course, this being the biggest in quite a while. This extraordinary circumstance caused me to need to post again, and I’m more than willing to take my lumps and learn from it. <P>Thanks for the feedback, K... you’re a prince, as always. I’ve got a lot to think about. I’m glad my new project at work doesn’t start until Tuesday... <P>

WhoDat:<P>Thanks for the clarification on your quote there---I didn't "see" it when I first read it. Hey, I've got a headcold---so my brain's only at about 60% (and that's why I'm surfin' instead of workin'). <P>You were upset because she brought up the affair as an arguing tactic. Does she do this often---or only when you provoke her? My guess is that if this is the first time she's done that in 2 years, that you won't see it for a while. Even if you do get that in 20 years---it's an abberation, and in response to her feeling really crappy about something. You need to remove the hurt YOU feel from that type of response, and focus on what has caused your wife to behave in that manner.<P>Your wife doesn't by the old POJA, huh?? Mine didn't either---at first. But I conned her into enthusiastically accepting it anyway [insert evil laugh here]. The bottom line is that you might want to try using this technique with her in a "one-sided POJA" in which results are based for her benefit. In essence, you will not gain at her expense. If you do this using Harley's language, there's no doubt that she's going to figure out what it's all about. And she'll eventually use it herself. You need to lead by example!<P>I'm shocked that this technique actually has worked so well for me. But we're solid on the POJA now.<P>It sounds like your marriage has made a ton of progress. Go home and cherish your wife this weekend---don't let these little spats get you derailed!

One other thing, K... then I’m gonna let this go and apologize to her for my over-reaction, and just ask her for her continued honesty. The reason I think this is such a big deal was something I can’t believe I didn’t put in my original post. When I originally told her how I felt about her having contact with Scott again, and how I thought it was rude and disrespectful of her to do this, she said... and I quote...<P>“I’ll do whatever I want to do, what you want and how you feel about it is of no concern to me, and if you don’t like it: tough. Deal with it.”<P>... and yeah, it was a Selfish Demand on my part, but one I still feel justified in having. I should have handled it differently, but her reaction as quoted above just really got to me... which was probably her very intent.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You were upset because she brought up the affair as an arguing tactic. Does she do this often---or only when you provoke her? My guess is that if this is the first time she's done that in 2 years, that you won't see it for a while. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep... first time ever. She's actually been very good about it, which is likely why it nailed me so hard.

Bad WhoDat!! Bad, bad boy!!<P>I'm so disappointed in you. <P>What a macho a**hole you're being. And I tell you this as a friend.<P>K has already told you what I would say, but I'd like to add one thing:<P>I think your W's contact with Scott is a passive/aggressive thing: "See? YOU see how it feels!" She may not even be aware of it.<P>I think that in counseling you guys ought to investigate her residual feelings about the affair. I don't think she's moved past it yet.<P>Another thing? (And I can tell you this): Lay off the E-mail friendships with women. It doesn't matter that the groundrules are there and that everyone knows what the story is. This is how you got in trouble in the first place, and your W doesn't know that it's just mutual support or small talk. As far as she's concerned, you're doing it again. Hence, her contact with Scott, which she KNOWS will get your goat. Either you're doing it on the sly, or else she knows and feels threatened by it.<P>I'd put money on the table right now that says she's bothered by this. I would be.<P>Forget the money. Your W is right. You knew Scott was a deadbeat when you loaned him the money. I once loaned a friend $1000 to keep her struggling bookstore afloat through her first Christmas season. The store folded and I never saw my money. She never even attempted to give me $5 a month. Yet there was always money to take busses to protest marches in D.C. She decided I was the rich friend and didn't need it. We are no longer in touch, and yes, the money was part of it, but more that her life was SUCH a mess I couldn't deal with it. But I knew when I wrote the check that I'd never see it again.

LOL... thanks for the whuppin’ Dazed... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I think that in counseling you guys ought to investigate her residual feelings about the affair. I don't think she's moved past it yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I KNOW she hasn’t moved past it, and so does our counselor. But she WON’T deal with it; just wants to move on with life. She has said that, in as many words. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I'd put money on the table right now that says she's bothered by this. I would be<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>and you’d double your money. One of the things we DID talk about on Wednesday night is that she was bothered “a little” by it... even though I make NO secrets about it. I Have no secrets from her.<P>I feel better now, and am glad I posted. We’ll talk this weekend, I’m sure. Maybe tonight, after the kids are in bed. If you don’t hear from me in email, you’ll know how it went... LOL.<P>But I’ll still check out continuing chapters of the Eileen/Rose/Charles saga... <BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

At least D&C got in her licks. As a matter of fact, WhoDat---why don't you "apologize" to your wife by offering to get her breast implants!!<P>[Ducking for cover...] <P>And I understand your reaction for her "quote" concerning Scott. But it's a RE-ACTION. Don't RE-ACT. ACT. Appropriately.<P>Giving a lovebuster for a lovebuster does not a loving marriage make. This experiment I have done, and the results are highly correlated!<P>Have a great weekend (you too, D&C). And D&C is right on target with email friendships with female friends---don't. I did this for a while with a few members of our community (strictly for their support)---but I don't anymore. It's simply not worth the risk to the marriage---however slight that may be.

Just wanted to let you all know, things worked out really well before, during and after the talk with my W. Of course, *I*& was the one making it a big deal.<P>Dunno why it matters to let you know, but I wanted to.<P>Also… something in regards to Scott that I found interesting… when I was going through the worst part of my depression after my affair, I had a different friend who "supported" the affair bail on me during withdrawal a few months later. I had a chance to reconcile with him, but didn't take it. Why? Besides him being a reminder of the affair itself, I felt that, "someone who is going to give up on me when it gets rough, and doesn't go their way isn't someone I would want as a friend anyway."<P>Got me thinking about the way I had treated Scott… a real friend is not someone who only hangs out when things are fine and dandy. It's the ones who stick with you when things are rough who should be cherished.<P>I want to be one of those.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

You got <B>that</B> right! <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

Hey all, Greetings from Lurkville!<P>Glad to finally get the whole poop here, Whodat. Dunc told me you were looking for some sounding-boards. Between K & D&C, you got some great advice. <P>My overall impression of this whole thing is "tempest in a teapot"... i.e. over-reaction all around... and a zillion counseling sessions has trained us to ask "why? What's REALLY going on here?". <P>Time to read between the lines, maybe... something about Scott & his problems really annoys /threatens /irritates /scares you... you sound really steamed that Scott 'dissed' you (despite that fact that he is obviously really a troubled guy)...your W responded defiantly at your suggestion that she's not being loyal to *you* regarding Scott - is she feeling over-controlled? (this happens to be one of my hot-buttons: "don't tell ME what to do!" ). It's been our experience that whenever someone is reacting 'way out of proportion to something, there's more to it all then meets the eye... there are underlying issues being churned up.<P>Miss all you guys!! The days seem too short to spend so much time here as before... but I'm glad to see a few familiar faces. K - good job, as always. Whodat - take a chill pill, bud! You sure are a thorny fella. You're comin' right along tho. Glad you two talked it out over the weekend... let it lie a bit sometimes, and the answers eventually present themselves. And you know this: keep talking!<P>Best wishes & regards to all our old MB friends - <P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Hi WhoDat,<P>Well, I only read this this morning. Whew! See what comes of drinking heavily late at night? Ya tart stalkin' funny an' do sstewpped shings, then yas get thick, er sick, puke an fall ashleep.<P>Ah college. Those were the good old days! <P>You've already received wise counsel from K and the old gang (Hi, all!) so I can't add much. But I did get the impression that your wife's behavior toward Scott was about one part independence, one part defiance (of you), and about ten parts pity and compassion for a pathetic, ne'er-do-well, old friend.<P>We're all like Scott sometimes, and it's good to have friends we can count on even when we're screwed-up. Looks like you figured that out on your own, eh? <P>Take care!<BR>Doug