TO: NOMAS,<BR>I keep reading your writings and wonder how you are handling all of this. I'm going through very much the same exact thing. How did you break it off?

Hi Wings.<BR>I am not handling it very well. My friend and I are in are 'upteenth' attempt of breaking off all contact. Seems like the 'cost' of keeping contact going is taking a toll on both of us emotionally. The pain of knowing we cannot have what we want so much just continues to break our heart.<P>Someone posted earlier that this breaking off contact is "quite simple. It's just not easy." Well, I won't argue that point for now.<BR>If you do a search on my name, NoMas under the general questions archives, you will see a thread I started a few months ago titled "Question for the "JUST SAY NO" crowd". <BR>This ordeal has by far been the most difficult thing I have ever encountered. What makes it so hard is both myself and my friend are similar in so many ways, and share the same weaknesses, and are very fond of each other. We became "bestfriends" this past year, and emotional support for each other. So, now that we have to face the reality of withdrawl, and work on struggling marriages, it just makes it so hard not to turn to each other when it has been so easy and natural to do so this past 8 months.<P>Wish I could give you more encouraging advice. You get to a point where you are afraid to try again, because each time you fail, meaning you contact each other again, it seems like thepull back is much stronger and deeper. It becomes and endless cycle. <P>I know that I tend tokeep coming back here to the boards because in one sense, they are a reality check for me. Hearing the pain of others who are betrayed help keep a certain balance for me. <P>There are times throughout the day, where I have to just get off by myself and just cry, I mean deep sobs and howling of pain. It is not pretty. It is like a death is taking place. I have chosen to walk through this without my wife knowing the full extent of my battle. Others would suggest I tell her. For now, I walk through this hell alone.<BR>

NoMas,<P>I have always appreciated your openness and honesty. Your words could so often be my own. I know you are helping many through your transparency.<P>I,too, am once again attempting to break all contact. My friend, too, is very similar to me in thinking and communicating. It is hard to go back and work on a struggling marriage. I am realizing that I will have to accept many things that I have always struggled with because that is just the way the person is. <P>I guess I'm repeating all your words, but they are the same for me, and it helps to write them out. I also come back to these boards to keep me in the reality of the ugliness of infidelity.<P>I want to encourage you with your deep sobs and howling of pain. In a way it is a death and that is a healthy way to go through it. I feel like that too. A few weeks ago I also sobbed and sobbed. I had a terrible headache afterwards, like my head would burst. My husband didn't ask any questions (he doesn't like to dig too deep into uncomfortable territory). Like your wife, he had an initial disclosure, but doesn't know I'm still struggling and so I am doing this alone also. I know others will say I should tell him, but he gets very angry (not in a dangerous way), I know I'll have to tell the rest of this someday so we don't have a big barrier between us, but just feel I have to do this part alone first. It is hard.<P>I am praying for you. <P>Again, I don't want to offend any betrayed. Just need to express some of my feelings too, for healing.

Thank you 'sifted'<P>It helps to know others like yourself understand the need to 'go it alone' and not tell the spouse. There is a scripture that reads "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". I suppose each of us needs to do what we think is best for our own situation.<BR>It never ceases to amaze me...how similar so many of the thoughts, struggles, and feelings that we all experience, be it whatever side of the tracks you find yourself on.<BR> <BR>It sure seems like it would be easy to just "give in" to the longings of our hearts. But deep down, we know the price to pay would be very high. I told my friend sometime ago, that all of our talking and sharing behind the backs of our spouses was like running up a credit card on a shopping spree. Breaking off contact and dealing with withdrawl, is like getting the bill in the mail and having to start making payments.<BR>It was fun while it lasted, but man, it hurts to pay it out like this.<BR>

The credit card analogy is very good. I realize, too, that now I have to pay for the "good feelings" I indulged in. What else can I expect? It is part of the natural consequences.<P>A few more thoughts:<BR>In some ways the withdrawal is made easier just by the relief of getting away from the deceit. I think you mentioned the cost of keeping up contact. It is a relief to get on the right track, but even so it is a roller coaster, with longings causing pain also. What a mess!<P>As far as telling spouses: I noticed that some spouses are very supportive of their WS. That could certainly be very helpful and I admire all of you who are able to do that. My guess, though, is that happens in cases where the couple had a pretty supportive relationship before the affair. It takes a spouse who is already supportive and nurturing to be able to do that. Not all spouses can. I guess that is why we each evaluate our own situations, knowing our spouses. I do believe that our spouses must eventually know, including as much as they have a need for, in order to build a close relationship again. But the timing of telling our spouses may vary depending on who they are. <P>I hope this doesn't sound too manipulative. I know we cannot fully decide ourselves how our spouses would react, but I think we have a pretty good idea, and if there has been an initial disclosure already, we know even more. <P>On the other hand, full knowledge might speed up the "No contact".<P>For me, my own feelings are so fragile right now, I haven't wanted to add someone else's strong rage and feelings to that equation. I already have a pretty strong internal battle going on inside of myself and I have put myself in some forms of accountability to get back on track. That is all I can handle right now. <P>Just typing this is making me realize that I do generally try to fight battles on my own, without depending on others. Maybe that isn't always so good. I'll have to think about it. But for now...<P>This battle is really wearing me out.

Thank you NOMAS and SIFTEDLIKEWHEAT...<BR>I can't tell you how comforting it is to know someone out there understands and is experiencing the same difficulties I am. I pray for all of us in the throes of letting go and doing what God has called us to do. To be faithful and to trust in HIm. <P>I ended contact just this week. It's been devastating. Ended relationship just last month, but ended ALL contact this week. I can totally relate to your sobbing pain...I don't believe I've ever felt anything like this before in my life. It is as if someone died. <P>Thanks so much for your honest hearts, both of you. I will continue to pray for us all! <BR>And as you so often say, NOMAS, we are not asking for sympathy in any way. We have fallen into a snare and are digging our way out and searching for some integrity in all of this. I'm certain many do not understand. But we do. The pain is very deep and terribly real.

I'm going to jump in again. sorry<P>I'm from the crowd of let your spouse help you, but then I was the supportive spouse.<P>You just don't know how supportive they will or will not be when you lay it out, are totally vulnerable and let the chips fall.<P>wings and sifted, I told some of our story to Nomas in a thread by tootrusting 3 days ago.<P>My h suffered, but he never went through the hell you guys are talking about because of my support. And he had no reason to think I would be supportive either. I wanted to throw him out. I surprised myself when I let him cry on my shoulder in withdrawal. I stayed up with him all night sometimes.<P>It hurt, yes, but I think it was integral to the healing of US, and that we have travelled so far in six months. We are now very much in love.

Schizzo, thanks for your reply. I have been thinking more on this subject of letting our spouses know all about our struggle to let go. I remember one time NoMas saying his wife was rather "put out" (can't remember now if that was when he shared a struggle of the pull of another woman, or if it was after disclosure). In my case I have a similar experience. When my husband found out about my feelings for another man (and he found out everything up to that point - he got ahold of ALL our e-mails), he was understandably VERY hurt, angry and VERY open and vulnerable. He was very motivated, getting up early to pray and read a book on the subject. He was very open with his feelings. That lasted about 3 weeks and then things seemed to go back to "normal". It was like that was all the pain he wanted to feel and now we should just proceed as we always had. The trouble is, "the way we always had" was part of the reason we got into this spot. He just expected me to "get back in line" and start behaving like the "good christian wife" he had always known. He wanted to close that chapter real fast. I bought 2 of Dr. Harley's books and also Torn Asunder (over a 4 month period). He said, "why are you buying so many books on that subject". He also said to me once that this forum is "poisoning me". He has no idea what Plan A is and has only read portions of the books that I have asked him to read. If it was only up to him he would like to just forget it all and now continue on as "normal". <P>Partly because of my personality I am much more motivated to deal with this and my desisre is to learn from it and have a much stronger marriage than ever before. He prefers to retreat from uncomfortable situations and so in a way, we are back to where we were before all this happened. <P>That is why I am going this alone. We had a very small window (3 weeks) to work on this together and that was all he wanted to open himself up to. Uncomfortable situations make him retreat and he would much rather go along as if everything is fine. <P>In all this some my be wondering how I am supporting him through this pain. I have shared what I learn through MB, this site, the books I have. I have always listened when he does share his hurt. I have encouraged him to go to a counselor. I have said we need to go together also. (In our area it is very hard to find a good Christian counselor, so that is taking some time). I haven't closed off my whole heart to him, although I feel dead inside. I am still at home!<P>If you have never lived with a conflict avoider you just may not understand how hard it is to work through tough issues.

Schizzo,<BR>Again, I applaud the effort made on your part and how far you have come. Talk about God's grace being poured out on you.<P>There are times, when I would like to think my wife could/would do the same. Then, there are times, like last night, I just really wonder.<P>We went out for a long drive and for some ice cream. I started to open up to her about what all is going in in my heart, some of the more 'general issues' that I have struggled a bit like some depression and such(Like wesse was sayingin another post by missy9.)<P>My wife seemed to be hearing and listening. But then when I started talking about our marriage, and the state it is in and how it might have gotten there, she got tense and almost offended that I suggested that "we" had a problem. She then voiced that she felt like we never had any problems until I started having these bouts with depression and that "if I could just get fixed, then the marriage would be fine along with everything else".<P>Maybe I am reading her wrong, but what I "heard" was that the problem was mine alone. It was like she has nothing to do with it. Yet, I know that there are certain things she could have been doing all along, that could have really helped me during that time that I began to stray. She does not appear to be open for discussion along that topic. <P>So, I continue, to fight this war alone. I certainly don't mean to 'paint' my wife as some cold and callused woman. She is not that. She does struggle in opening up at times, and pride plays a role in that. I just don't think she has the capacity to deal with such major issues like this in our life right now. Maybe it is denial. I don't know.<P>I did get her to take the Dr. Phil quiz,(which I will bring up again for others) and we both scored poorly on it. She seemed irritated with that, saying "I didn't think there was a problem bad enough that you would have to go looking for someone else!"<P>Well, I didn't "go looking". My friend just ...was there. Even after the disclosure or our meeting in Dec., my wife had very few questions. Seems to me, I would have had a bunch of them, wanting to know how we got there and what could I have done. Not sure why, but she really did not seem to care about what problems might have been there to deal with.<P>I perceive that her pain is so great, that she just does not want to deal with it. And that is why I hesitate adding to it, by telling her the depth of the emotional involvement that there has been.<P>***sigh***<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited June 03, 2000).]

*******<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited June 03, 2000).]

NoMas: The reason why your W doesn't know what is going on in your marriage is because YOU are NOT being honest with her. She doesn't know that this OW is still involved with you.<P>All your W notices is that your heart isn't 100% into this marriage, therefore, she is saying that you have the problem with depression.<P>I don't think that your marriage is going to improve until you start being 100% honest with her and when you DUMP that OW.<P>How is communicating with this OW helping you? Whoever this OW is, she should know better. You said that you met her on this forum? Well, if she were so caring about your marriage and about hers, she would help to break this contact also.<P>All of this is just prolonging the pain. It IS simple! Just break contact! You make a choice. Either your marriage OR this OW.<P>Who is more important to you? This OW or your W?<P>If this OW is so important then tell your W, leave her and let your W move on with her life. Stop dragging her in the darkness. It isn't fair and it is cruel.<P>Stop thinking about how you feel about not being with this OW. Start considering how your behavior affects others. Your W is a victim and doesn't even know it!

NoMas,<P>You are doing yourself and your wife a great disservice by not talking with her. I realize that you don't think you have the right to save your marriage, but it is your OBLIGATION to try and do so.<P>You need to sit down and discuss with your W why she feels the marriage is NOT in bad shape. You need to understand what she meant by her comments. Not the affair but what she meant vs. what you have interpretted.<P>Your marriage has no chance of working if your W feels that everything is alright once you get over the depression. Getting over the depression will help, but you know that you are not getting what you need from her: Time and attention.<P>I know you prefer the martyr role. But it will end up costing your wife a chance for a good marriage and it will end up costing you a chance for a good marrige. Finally, it will cost your children.<P>You may be in withdrawl, but you know the score. Your W has to be part of the process or you will never have a marriage, much less a good marriage.<P>It seems to me you are too busy feeling sorry for yourself. That is right I am being very blunt. YOUR ARE FEELING SORRY FOR YOURSELF.<P>Yes, you miss the OW. Yes you are in withdrawl. However, your marriage is dying and your W needs your help in understanding why it is dying. She may choose to leave you, she may choose to ignore you, she may choose to face her role in the state of the marriage, but you must work with her. Or the only choice she will have is to leave and not even know how to make a successful marriage.<P>NoMas, I have been blunt, but your situation is not as sequential one. "I'll do this first, and then I'll do the next, and then I'll do the following". If there is any chance for you marriage to work, you must talk with your wife. You must explain to her how you interpret what she says and does.<P>Marriage is a team sport NoMas, and you owe your W at least the curtesy of telling her how you interpret what she says. Never mind the affair, just discuss your marriage.<P>You and your W can not get through this if you tiptoe around the fact that she is avoiding the conflict of facing a dying marriage. You are also avoiding it, by wrapping yourself in the issues of withdrawl.<P>The greatest irony in all of this, is if you had a friend going through what your W is, you would talk with that person and try to help. You would do this even if you were married to someone else. But you will not help the person you are married to.<P>Please think about this. By the time you finish with the pain of withdrawl you may not have a marriage to save. Further, if you really don't need your W for anything, then do her a favor and leave so that she might find someone who does care about her, at least on the most elemental level as one friend to another.<P>You both have problems, and while she doesn't seem willing to help you, are you willing to help her? If not you are no better. This isn't about the affair now, this is about treating people properly.<P>I hope this engenders in you some thoughts about something besides your withdrawl.<P>God Bless You and Your Family,<P>JL

Tell her.... don't tell her.... <P>They say, just do it, just make up your mind, just decide.... it's that simple... <BR>when in truth it is about as far from simple as it gets...<P>We know what is really going to happen.... it is going to get much worse... before it gets better... and that is if it does get better at all... and then we have caused more turmoil and pain and suffering for our spouses... We love our spouses and don't want them to hurt any more....<P>I don't think at this time, that some of us are able to deal with much more stress before we completely go over the edge.... dealing with withdrawls is bad enough without doing it and failing while your spouse watches it happen...<P>There are two things that could happen...our spouses would either stand by us and suffer the pain of withdrawls along with us... Or be disqusted and even more resentful toward us because of our weakness...<P>That is why I choose not to flip the coin.... Why I choose not to take the chance of having either of those things take place in my life right now... I am dealing with this alone... One bite at a time... until I feel strong enough to choose another option..<P>Good luck to you NoMas with your No contact... it is a hard step to take... for both you and your friend...my H also said the things to me about my depression that your W said to you...However, my H is much crueler with his words...<P>Even now... while I am much better he will throw it in my face... when ever there is an argument or disagreement or something goes wrong here... It is always my fault... or "You're not any better!"... "If you hadn't have been sick..." things like that... Sigh..<P>Good luck to you....<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited June 03, 2000).]

Wow, NoMas, I didn't mean for you to get inundated here. I do know the struggles and I completely understand the difficulty of telling your W. I am working through this with my H as well. We are making progress, but it's painful and slow. The advice many of these people are giving us is right and accurate. For me, as long as there was contact with OP, then I could not focus on H. When I finally was honest with H about the emotional depth I had shared with OP, he began to finally pay attention. At first he said all the same things your W said. He didn't think we had any problems, he was happy and what was wrong with me. But now he sees the reality from my point of view, but I also have to see his point of view as well. <P>Though I ended the relationship with OP, I held on to the emails. Now I have stopped ALL contact. I had to. As long as there was any form of communication, it only prolonged my withdrawl, and hindered my healing with my H. So now it's done. It's over. The OP was my best friend....and it hurts to let that go. But it nearly cost us both our marriages. And that is too big a price to pay. What a difficult and painful lesson to learn. <P>So, NoMas....at least know you are not alone. You are surrounded by many who are exactly where you are. I know we can do this. God is bigger than any of this and we have to trust Him to give us the strength, power and hope to let go of our "crutch" and honor our marriage vows. <P>Can I ask if you are currently taking an antidepressant? I'm not, but am considering it, just afraid of those things. <BR>Thanks for sharing the depths of your pain so openly. <P>Lacee....please don't feel alone. After reading your profile, I can tell you I am in the same place you are. I find the more I talk to others and share my pain, the stronger I get. Draw close to God, your husband and anyone who understands what you're going through. Just don't fight it alone, you can't...I tried that...it just caused me to fail. I am now resolved to asking for help and reaching out to others...even this forum has given me a lot of strength. Hang in there...and stay plugged in....<BR><p>[This message has been edited by wings (edited June 03, 2000).]

Thank you wings...for the encouragement. <P>I was going to try some Paxil for awhile, but since I was still in contact with my friend, I can't say I noticed any help.<P>I may try again in a few weeks. Seems to help others here from what I have read.<P><BR>JL,<BR>It would be very easy to just tell anyone who is in pain, or expressing that pain in any form or fashion, that they are "feeling sorry for themself." How would YOU define that term? <P>You don't offend me by what you wrote, but your name indicates...you still have a lot to learn. Pain is pain. Regardless of the cause. Yes, I am going through withdrawl. The easy way out would be to give into my longings, and throw so much away and chase after my dream. I know that would be a bad choice. Have you ever experienced the depth of withdrawl like what many of us are going through? If so, perhaps you have already forgotten how your mind and heart scream out and mess with you. Your thinking becomes distorted. You need and outlet, and the temptation to run back to the OP is so great. For reasons already stated, I cannot go to my wife with this. So I come to these boards to "vent". It helps. <P> If my posts offend you, or even 'disgust' you, then do yourself a favor and just pass them over and don't read them.<BR>Maybe I am feeling sorry for myself. If so, I guess it is one of the ugly stages of this whole ordeal, and I hope to pass through it.<P>Sometimes, the healing process is not a pretty one. Much "puss" and "blood" ooze out, which is all part of the cleansing process. I apologize if my "oozing mess" is turning stomachs out there. I kind of see this forum as a "hospital" or maybe and ER.<P>Sick people usually are found in places like that. Let's avoid stating or blasting the obvious...and work on getting them well.<BR>:-)<BR>

It seems to me NoMas did try to talk to his wife a few times, even disclosing to her his involvement with another. She didn't ask many questions. When your spouse responds like that, they send a message that they don't really want to look at this problem (or maybe can't handle it). You feel alone in it. Even if you do share everything, that doesn't mean your spouse will be able to come alongside and you can both work on it. Realize that some people tend to retreat further when they hear things that make their world uncomfortable. And they give all kinds of messages to let you know that - by being silent, withdrawn, avoiding the issue, pretending everything is fine. NoMas' wife also has a responsibility in the marriage. Surely she realizes something is wrong. She could also open up, ask questions and try to understand.<P>When I had a very distressful day several weeks ago, and sobbed and sobbed for hours, my husband didn't ask a single question. His way to handle it is to leave me alone and hope the next day I will reappear with a happy face. And we will never have to bring it up. The next morning I did ask him what he thought about why I seemed so sorrowful the day before. If I hadn't asked it would never have been brought up. He had come to his own general conclusion about "something must be making me sad", but he didn't really want to know what it was. That was good enough for him. Everyone should just behave "normal" again and everything will be "fine". <P>If it were me I would ask questions when I see my spouse so sorrowful. But not everyone is like that. So we feel alone and go it alone as best as we can.

I took my 5 year old to the waterslide, came back and find volumes have been written here!<P>My h came in when I finished posting this morning. He usually doesn't have the time to spend on MB, but he read yours NOmas and Sifted and said he knows exactly what you're talking about - it was like tearing his heart out.<P>I too reacted in the past defensively and would not want to feel at fault for anything in the marriage.<P>My h was ready to leave me, wanted to be with the OW, had no feelings left for me (according to him). For one month before he disclosed the affair I had known he was no longer in-love and wanted to leave.<P>NoMas, Sifted and anyone else - maybe it was the life and death (sure felt like it, I wanted to end my life, but my faith in God held me) nature of the crisis that made me see clearly there could be no half measures. IF HE HAD GIVEN IT TO ME IN LITTLE BITES AND NOT OPENED HIS HEART AS TO HOW DESPERATE THIS WAS, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE REACTED THE SAME AS NOMAS WIFE.<P>In every post I've read, it's always the betrayer that wants to move on and forget it without doing the hard work. That 3 weeks and lets forget it sounds unusual. Have you tried counselling with Steve or Jennifer on the phone? I don't think we would be here without Jennifer's help.<P>I not only was there from him in withdrawal, but the no contact letter was final and from both of us. I had access to emails, everything. It took away the temptation to continue behind my back.

<B>SLW</B>,<P>I am right there w/you when you see your sp unhappy you ask Q to see if you can help.<P>I too am the same way,but I think that it all has to do w/personality types.We want to help,sove the problems and find the solutions to make our marriages better!<BR>They are conflict avoiders,and also don't want to have to look at them selves to see what they have contributed.<P>I know for me......and trust me on this one it was very hard,very hard to "look" at my self and to see who I had become and how I was treating my H.I coudn't get him to help me,just to talk w/me about my behavior and how I could better my self.(I also think it is also bc he didn't want to have to look at him self........to see what he wasn't puting into the marriage.)<P>Keep hanging in there! <P>Gina<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lacee:<BR><B><BR>There are two things that could happen...our spouses would either stand by us and suffer the pain of withdrawls along with us... Or be disqusted and even more resentful toward us because of our weakness...<P>That is why I choose not to flip the coin.... Why I choose not to take the chance of having either of those things take place in my life right now... I am dealing with this alone... One bite at a time... until I feel strong enough to choose another option..<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Lacee, I don't know the particulars of your situation, but I did not on the whole suffer more pain because of the withdrawal, so I would have to say there are more than those two options. <P>It was a very strange week we spent after discovery on a cruise. I was in so much pain from learning of the betrayal that he could not possibly have caused any more. It was like he supported me in my pain as best he could, and I held him. Even though the cause was different, we connected in helping each other through this. (The first and only time on a cruise I would start crying even in the dining room and ate almost nothing for the 5 days).<P>I think it would have been much less real if he came to me when he was completely over it and I was swallowed by the pain while he went on with his life.<P>Just my thoughts.<P>

I've stayed away from this thread but have to say one thing re: schizzo and lacey's dialogue...<P>A third option is what happened to me, and some others on this board:<P>Your spouse will get you back with an affair or two of their own... and as much as nobody wants to think of it, it hurts in a totally different way. I know, because my stbx had affairs in our early married years, and then again after my affair. Don't get me wrong, it hurts like hell no matter what, but there's something even more abusive about them trying to do God's job and giving you a dose of 'controlled karma' and seeking revenge.<P>Just an added thought...<BR>