You know, I read some of your posts, complete with colorful names for OP and detailed descriptions of fun and exciting things you'd like to do to them, like urinate on a dead OW's grave, spray paint a red letter "A" on the hood of her car and lots more juicy stuff. I know that many of you writing these things have unfaithful spouses who are still in contact with the OP or refuse to end their affairs or come clean about them. So, I can definitely understand your anger and inability to have closure and move on. Your spouse's behavior is playing a big part in you being stuck. But, it does make me wonder what OM's W thinks of me. Or even if she think of me at all? Geez, I hope not. What a waste, if she does. She's always had my name, phone number and address, yet she has never contacted me. Not once. My H and I have the same phone number we've had for 12 years. So, I don't know what she thinks of me. I certainly don't expect her to like me, or have any desire to be friends or go shopping with or have lunch with me or anything, but I really hope she isn't expending any energy toward hating me. That would be a total waste of time on her part. I don't want her H! Now that I see things clearly, and my H and I have learned how to give and receive love, all I want is my own H!! No one else. Any thoughts and rememberances of OM and me and what he and I "thought" we had makes me want to vomit. It is a painful, ugly reminder of my darkest hour, my worst moment. Hating me would be a serious waste of time and would hurt her, not me. I've moved on with my life, so if she is hating me, then she's doing herself a tremendous disservice.<P>As for H's OW, I rarely think of her at all. In a way, I've always felt a little sorry for her because my H flat out used her and then dumped her. As a matter of fact, when I did have the chance to talk to her by phone, I actually apologized to her for my H's deplorable behavior. Maybe it is because of the fact that I also cheated, but she, as an individual, is insignificant to me. I know that she could have been interchangeable with any other OW who was willing, at the time. There was nothing special about her or what they had, and I certainly can't blame her for what she thought of me when I know she was only going by what my H told her. She didn't know me, I didn't know her. It was nothing personal. <P>But, like I said, I know I'm coming from the perspective of someone whose spouse is equally committed to rebuilding. Neither the OP's or their spouses have any place in our thoughts or our lives now. We have moved on.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Hey NW ...<P>What do you got ... a death wish posting something like that on this forum?<P><sigh><P>I'll be back to pick up the pieces later.

Maya,<P>LOL, I guess so! Or maybe, just maybe, I am hoping for the best. You know me, little Miss Optimist. But, I had to. That "peeing on the grave thing" got to me. One of the most unsettling things I've read. But, oh well, we'll see.<P>(Donning protective gear as we speak .... )<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by new woman (edited September 08, 1999).]

New Woman<BR>I hope that you can try to understand that none of this is aimed at you, Maya or anyone here.<BR>in my case personally, I have 7 years worth of pain to deal with from the OW. She has interefered in my marriage for that long. She has caused me pain for that long. She didn't sleep with my H till last fall but she has been tresspassing for 7 years in my marriage. I know a lot about her as a person. You don't watch someone in action for that long without building up something personal.<BR>If the worst thing that I do is say some nasty things about her at this forum, then I am not ashamed.<BR>When I amke these comments I am refering to HER. I am thinking of HER. I don't lump people into categories. As I said on another thread Some of my favorite people are betrayers - My H and my oldest friend.<BR>most of the people I know have had to deal with infidelity in one way or another.<BR>My H's OW is the only person in my life that has had this much negative impact. <BR>I spent years doing the "right thing". <BR>I have a lot of anger towards HER. I am trying to get it out here. I do not want to hurt her. I spent a very long time praying for help in forgiving her.<BR>She has no remorse and she thinks that she can pop into My H's life any time she feels like it. A month ago was the last one. This makes it very hard to deal with. If she showed one ounce of remorse I would find such freedom. <BR>I admire everyone who is working towards recovering from this.<BR>I am sorry if you take this personally but I would rather be getting this anger out of my system safely. <BR>7 years of pentup hurt from one person is a lot to deal with.<BR>I know the old line that it was my H that did this. yes he did. And he has remorse. But I caught on to her game the first time I met her. This is personal for me. I am trying to deal with it without lashing out. <BR>Once again, I am sorry if you take it personally. It is not meant that way.<BR>I see everyone here as Marriage builders. No other name tags.

LOL Maya!<P>new woman, <P>No need to duck for cover. I will throw in a smart @$$ comment about my H's exOW once in a while. To him though, I've never said anything negative about her to anyone else. She was mostly just my H's friend, and was easily interchangeable. She never went out of her way to pursue my H. Heck, she never even called him. I have spoken to her a couple of times on the phone, and she's been nothing but remorseful and respectful to me. Thankfully! We spent hours on the phone one night. I never said a derogatory thing to her. I just wanted info. <P>Anyhow, your can't understand the pain, nor can I, of the betrayed here whose OW/OM continually wreak havoc on their lives. They intentionally cause a lot of pain to the betrayed. It becomes more than personal then. I'm sure you've read some of these stories, and yours is really tame in comparison. These OW/OM don't deserved to be pi$$ed on if they were on fire. Big difference from someone like you, who is remorseful. Wasting energy on hating an OW like you, isn't worth it. Releasing anger about the truly pathetic OW/OM that you often read about, is probably very healthy for the betrayed who do so. Luckily, all they're doing is calling them a few names here and there. It could get a lot worse. <P>------------------<BR>The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart.<BR>Helen Keller<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Distrusting (edited September 08, 1999).]

Wasstubborn,<P>Please understand, I DON'T take it personally. I'm sure you have GOOD REASON to dislike the OW. I hope I made that clear. But, like I said, reading how you guys feel sometimes makes me wonder what OM's W thinks of me. I truly hope she doesn't think things similar to what I read, because if she does, while it's eating her up inside, I am going on with my life. It hurts her, keeps her stuck, while I've moved on.<P>This being a marriage builders forum, and a forum that is about recovering, healing and moving forward, I am sometimes caught off guard when I read something that doesn't really fall in line with that. Venting can be a good thing, but I still think everyone should be careful ..... you know, a "be careful what you wish for" kinda thing. I am one who doesn't believe that fantasizing about causing someone bodily harm, or thinking about doing something hurtful or nasty to another person, calling them names, etc. is either Christian or healthy. I know the bible teaches us that our thoughts are just as bad as carrying out the act for real. (You know, lusting in one's heart?) So, I just feel that it goes against God's teachings of loving thy enemy, thy neighbor, and forgiving those who trespass against us. <P>If I wrote something that others felt was unhealthy or preventing me from healing and moving on, I'd full well expect, AND WOULD HOPE, that you guys here would call me on it. I want to heal, I want to recover, I want to move on, I want to be a better person. I am relying on you all to let me know if you see me doing anything that could get in the way of that. <P>Isn't that what friends are for? <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

I know exactly what my OM's wife thinks of me, because we had several long conversations (initiated by her after discovery). The first conversation, she told me she hated me, that I was the lowest form of human sludge that she had ever known, that I should be sick to my stomach from shame for myself. I agreed with her, didn't say much except to apologize.<P>The second time we talked, she wanted to know how my frienship with her h had escalated to such an intimate relationship. She was still hateful and angry at me, but she did initiate this conversation and told me I owed it to her to answer all questions. so I did.<P>The third time we talked, several months later, she called me at work (this scared me to death). She told me that she had worked through her hate for me and it was gone. she felt like a weight had been lifted from her shoulders because she had forgiven me. She also told me that she did not want me anywhere near her H or in her life ever again, but that she felt as a Christian that she needed to tell me in person that she had forgiven me. She did tell me that her H's affair had been a blessing in disguise because they had never been so close and that their marriage was stronger than ever before. I'm sure that's why she was able to come to this conclusion about me. I wouldn't expect anyone who's spouse is not working on their marriage, as he apparently was, to forgive in this way.

Tamis,<P>Yes, I'm sure that's makes it a lot easier to forgive. The minute I found out about the already ended affair and called OW, she cried and apologized to me. Then answered any questions I had. That made it easier for her to become insignificant. I know that the people who are stuck in hatred are ones whose spouses are, well, jerks basically. If their own spouses will not behave honorably and respectfully towards them, it's no wonder the OPs won't either. They are being fed b.s. by the unfaithful spouses. If their spouses and the OP's would show even a little remorse and respect, I bet they wouldn't feel this way.<P>But, even still, I don't like to see good people consumed with hatred. I don't think hatred is ever a good thing. Hatred keeps us stuck and eats us up inside while the person we are hating is living their lives. It's not fair, but it's a fact of life.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Distrusting<BR>I wrote an apology to you on nb's thread. Please read it.<P>NW<BR>I'm glad you don't take it personally. i understand what you are saying.<BR>I really think you would get a lot out of reading the Forgiveness Workbook. It is a Christian book. One of the things it stresses is that we maust allow healthy anger. If we forgive just because the Bible tells us to, we are not being realistic. We end up hurting ourselves worse if we don't deal with our emotions.<BR>There is nothing I would like more than to be able to forget what she has done to me. It isn't that easy when you are looking at that length of time. I am working very hard at getting through this. It's coming along slowly.<BR>Another book I read insists that revenge fantasies are the best therapy. If they stop there. That is what a lot of us are trying to do. Get rid of the anger without hurting anyone.<BR>I can't imagine that what you did and who you are could even compare to my OW. I'm sure that your MM's wife doesn't have 7 years of resentment towards you. I wouldn't bother wondering based on anything you see here from me anyway.<BR>Just a little story for you: When my MIL met the OW years ago the only thing she said was "Oh my I'll have to keep your FIL away from that."<BR>This is the kind of woman I have been putting up with all those years. Just to have her dive in like a vulture when the going was rough in our marriage. Not something you can easily walk away from. Especially when You spent all that time avoiding your anger and trying to do the "right thing".<BR>This is something that needs to be processed safely.

New Woman, I guess we all could take things personally and feel that some of the anger we each bear some people could be us in their shoes, but I guess we ALL need to get past that. I knew OW for about 8 of our 10 years together. She portrayed herself as my friend and though, I often felt a great deal of uneasiness with her around (I knew she was the one that H's family wanted her to marry) I talked myself out of that and tried to see her as a friend. I guess my anger against her isn't because of the affair, I really think I blame my H and myself for that direction in our marriage, but because I was really thinking of her as a friend and expecting her to have morals that made her do otherwise than what she did. I look back at events that happened and believe them to be a set up from her and don't know what to believe as far as our friendship went. I guess I was truly hurt because I tried to like her, thought of her as a friend, and then she did this action to hurt not only us but her H and herself as well. She knew she was in the wrong, she told H as well. I am facing a confrontation with her this weekend and am nervous because I still feel not only anger but sad and incredibly hurt as well. I never thought about the big red A though,..... at times I think it would feel good for me to do something like that!!!!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<BR>

Wasstubborn,<P>I understand. I do. And you're right, it's a process. I don't agree with the revenge fantasies, though, but that's just my humble opinion. I don't want to occupy my mind with anything that is not constructive. Revenge isn't. <P>If your H was truly remorseful, committed to rebuilding and was doing all that he could do, I think you'd be able to move on, regardless of what kind of person the OW is. I'm sorry that he isn't helping you.<P>Keep up the great work with that forgiveness workbook! I know it's a process and it's great that you are working so hard to get there. I admire that. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

NW<BR>I could spend the rest of the day explaining to you about my H's OW. This goes way beyond the affair.<BR>I am a little offended at your comment about my H's committment to rebuilding. This really is a matter that I should have dealt with a long time ago between me and this woman. I allowed her to trespass in my marriage. It is very long and complicated.<BR>My H is remorseful. He got suckered. If you met this woman and watched her in action you would understand. He got suckered long before he slept with her. She is the one who keeps popping back into our lives.<BR>My H is not innocent but I think it's about time that the OW take some responsibility for the pain that was caused. As a human being she owes me respect and she owes my marriage respect. Not just my marriage but all the marriages of the men she "borrows". Her words to me.<BR>I don't think that you know enough about the last 7 years of my life to be making that kind of judgement about my H.

Wasstubborn,<P>Huh??????????? Uh oh, what did I say????? I wasn't making judgements, I thought that your H wasn't committed to rebuilding. I read your profile and have read many of your posts, and for some reason I got that impression. If I misunderstood, please don't be offended. My goodness, there are like a gazillion different stories and posters on this board, so again, I APOLOGIZE if I got yours mixed up.<P>Now, that said, if your H is remorseful, has ended his affair and all contact with OW, and the two of you are rebuilding, what is it exactly that you want the OW to take responsibility for? I guess I'm confused a little. I was under the thinking that if rebuilding our marriages was the objective, who gives a rat's patootie what the OP does or doesn't do??? She may never treat you with respect, and she may never take responsibility for her actions. And so what? As long as YOU are the better person, that you and your H go on rebuilding a healthy, happy and successful marriage, who cares about her??? If you AND your H don't allow her into your lives, she won't and can't barge her way in. That's not possible.<P>Wasstubborn, please help me to understand, please. I really want to. Again, I'm sorry if I got your story mixed up, but don't hold that against me. For some reason, I thought I'd read in your posts and your profile that your H wasn't doing all he could. Again, forgive me.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.<p>[This message has been edited by new woman (edited September 08, 1999).]

new woman<BR>I said a "little" offended. No big deal. It just goes to show that we can't possibly know the whole story from what we read here.<BR>I really don't want anything from the OW. I want her to know a couple of things that I should have let her know years ago. Between me and her. That many years is not that easy to just forget. It isn't about my marriage.<BR>To put it bluntly - this woman has an idea that I am a sappy scared little thing who is so afraid of being alone that she'll let her H do anything. She keeps coming back.<BR>Do you think that description is accurate from what you've seen of me? Do you think that you would be happy if the OW thought that about you? She thinks this because I always did the "right thing". I would like her to know the truth. For my self respect. Like I said, It is between her and me. Doesn't have anything to do with my H or the affair. <BR>I apologize. I did not intend to turn your thread into my private circus.<BR>I just wanted you to know where I am coming from regarding my OW. I do not want you or anyone to be offended by anything I say on this board regarding her. I think my situation is a little different in regards to the length and experiences.<P>Mistakes are mistakes. Trash is trash.

Sorry to barge in here, but personally, I don't care what OW thinks of me. I got my H, he loves me, he's with me, he wants nothing more to do with her, I could care less what she thinks, especially if I know the truth. Just my two cents.

I hope that y'all understand that I also don't lump all OP in the same category.<P>I'm grateful that my H never wanted to leave me, so I guess I should be glad that he just had a one-night stand (if that's all it was).<P>However, I think that I could understand it better if he had gotten emotionally involved. I guess it would mean that he didn't take a sexual relationship as lightly as he apparently did/does.<P>Instead, my H chose to screw a woman simply because, he said, he was drunk and she was available and easy. She was probably also drunk, and I know she had an STD. I guess this is what angers me so much--that he could risk our very lives for a 5 minute f*** in the bushes or a vehicle outside a beer joint. No, I didn't know her, but I'm quite sure that she knew who I was and that he was my husband. Yes, he knew he was married, and I'm angry at him. But, in order to rebuild our marriage, I have to do something with that anger; so, I'm focusing it on the slut. And, yes, from what I understand, she was a slut. She would come on to men and sleep with anybody and everybody who was willing. It angers me that women would set out to destroy the marriages of other women--even if the wife doesn't know about her. Yes, I knew that my H screwed somebody; I knew it for 13 years, even through all the lies. My marriage had gotten into a sorry state, and you know what? I think that the REASON that I stopped being as good a wife as I could have been was partly BECAUSE of my H's little "fling." I think that I built up this "wall" between us.<P> Really, it's pathetic that she should have respected herself so little. I guess I should feel sorry for her if she thought she could find "love" by screwing every man with whom she came into contact. I guess I should feel sorry for her that she died at a young age. Which reminds me....does anyone have any idea how long after a risky sexual encounter, HIV/AIDS can be diagnosed? I gave blood earlier this year, so I'm assuming that I would have been notified of anything out of the ordinary.<P> Anyway, I think that cheap sluts (who can be men who just want to "score") like the one my H screwed, and OP who relentlessly pursue the betraying spouse or set out to destroy the marriage are the ones who are really worthy of our anger.

new woman,<BR>My W is the betrayer and from what I find out is also the prime persuer in the affair. I am very sure the OM is just enjoying it to no end. I have talked to his W and she hates my W so much she can't even say her name it's always "that woman". All of his family hate her as well as his W's family.( I will reserve judgement on this until after she is introduced to them by him though). My W has been "tresspassing" in that marriage for a very long time as well. In talking to his wife she also said that when she met my W that she felt like she could confide in her, as it turns out my W was just finding information to intice him. My W calls her a sick woman..... things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.....<p>[This message has been edited by mkn (edited September 08, 1999).]

Yikes, but Sweetpea, SHE'S DEAD! What can she do to you now? What good does hating her do? That's all I'm saying ......<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Had to jump in here, it's a topic "close" to my heart.<P>I think my H's OW is a pathetic, vindictive moron. When he tried to break it off with her, she went ballistic and has basically been on a path ever since to ruin his life, and mine. She took what was pretty much just a friendship and blew it all out of proportion, thinking they were going to ride off into the sunset together. I suppose living life popping handfuls of Percodan mixed with liberal dollops of booze will alter your perceptions a bit, since he never said anything of the kind to her.<P>Ever since that happened, she has found every way possible to feed me and other people involved different stories, trying to make my H look like a lying, cheating b*stard. And for a long time I believed her, because I figured she had nothing to lose. Let's just say she's succeeded in making our lives miserable for a long time now, and it's only just beginning to recede.<P>That's what I think of the OW in this case. Just venting though, not my opinion of ALL OWs <P>

I cannot put into words what I think and feel about the OW, and I no longer try to. You see I do hate her, and I have never hated anyone or anything in all my life! It would consume me if I let it. But whenever a thought enters my mind, I pray for her....It hasn't eliminated that gut wretching feeling, nor provided me lasting peace, but the monents pass more quickly, it's hard to have both hatred and prayer in your heart at one time. I must admit however, that although I pray for her, I offer up the prayer for her, I ended it for me. I ended it with, "please guard my mind against thought of her."<P>So although I have a long way to go with this, that's how I deal with it. And the ironic thing in all this, is I still cannot hate anyone or anything else......just her.