<BR>Hi All -<P>I am in a very conflicted state of mind and need ALL of the input I can get on this.....<P>A lot of you know my story and for those who don't....I have been in this for three years, the last one of which my H has left and filed for divorce. There was barely a couple of weeks between my finding MB and his leaving and getting an attorney, so there was no "discussions", etc. about the marriage, MB or anything else.<P>Going right into attorney mode, basically kept my husband in control and inhibited the kind of communications we could have had that might have led us through this nightmare (attorneys advised to no written communications, put us both on no trust/self-<BR>protection defense, etc.)<P>H refused counseling, even when asked by my attorney.....<P>But we have a great bond when nothing is mentioned of the "relationship" . We get along fine and the love is there between us....he's just messed up with it!!<P>Anyway, that is some background..<P>On to the dilemma......<P>I have recently discovered that I was entitled to an 18 month separation with MANDATORY counseling!!!! (among other things)<P>I was also informed that I don't have to agree to Irreconsilable Differences and "Adultery", etc. could be the grounds.....<P>There is also a provision for a "limited divorce" which is basically a separation and no final dissolution is made.<P>I have still to talk with my attorney (appointment Monday thanks to my "blast" letter!!)<P>But I need to know how I want to proceed.....<P>Up until now....I have not held up the divorce. Have not been demanding, nasty or anything like that.<P>If I opt for the mandatory counseling (which he needs desparately!!) - three things could come from it: <P>1) It will totally antagonize H<P>2) Being forced to counseling will probably not help because he doesn't want it to.<P>3) It would help.<P>I am sooooo torn. I don't want this divorce, have maintained that all the way through. If I do attempt to stop it or hold it off, my actions would follow my lip service, but would end up being a MAJOR LB to H.<P>If I don't exercise this option, I have not done all that I can to save this marriage.<P>WHAT DO I DO?<P>My ideal would be to get H to Retrouvaille for a weekend in September.....I even looked into it and discussed my situation with their counselor couple!!<P>If I could convince H that it doesn't have to be to "save" the marriage but more for an understanding of what we went through and are feeling, I think that that would be the ONLY thing that would have a chance of working.......<P>Don't think that the courts would agree to that and would more than likely just pick some idiot counselor for us to go to a couple of times.....<P>HELP ME!!! <P>Why did this come to light now do you think? Is that relevant in some way? It makes me feel that I am supposed to do something with it, but if I do - it could do such great harm....but is that what is needed? Some sort of "shake-up"?<P>ANYTHING you can throw at me to help with my muttled brain is appreciated.<P>Thanks, Hugs and Prayers for us all!!!!<P>Sheba

What are the chances of the divorce not going through if you don't do it?<P>What do you really have to lose by trying?<BR>

Hey Sheba,<P>I don't know what you should do...I think you defined your options and possible benefits and consequences very well.<P>Are you sure about this new info? Why weren't you ever told about this before?<P>Would it still work at the stage of proceedings you are currently in? I guess what I am getting at is you better be absolutely sure of your options before you rattle your H's cage.<P>I'm thinking...<P><BR>

Sheba,<P>Honey if you feel you won't have done all you could to save the marriage if you don't try for some of these things, how will you feel about yourself later ?<P>You have to look at that. Because when all is said and done, you have to live with you, no matter which way it goes.<P>I think you have to do whatever you can deal with the possible outcome of . Make sense > No of course not, .<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{sheba}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>Hepatitis C, educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://hepatitis-central.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://hepatitis-central.com/</A>

Truthseeker -<P>I truly believe that the divorce IS going to go through regardless.<P>It is HOW it goes through and HOW the interactions between h and I play out that will be detrimental to any future revisiting of a "relationship" that is really where my head is thinking on....<P>The relationship now is not angry or hostile in any way and at the very least I want AND NEED it to remain so.<P>That would be lost if I don't proceed correctly.<P>UGH!!!!

Hi Sheba,<P>Don't know how much help I can be, but I see some similarities in our husbands. My H also will not go to counseling (what is with these guys?). If I try to force him into it he looks like a deer caught in the headlights. Yes, he also needs it desperatley, but I had to back off and give him time and space.<P>But...if I was facing a divorce I think I'd pull out all of the stops I could. Keep in mind the Retrovaille people may call him if you sign up and ask him if he's being coerced into going. They really don't want people there that are being "forced" to go. I have decided I'll Plan A my butt off, but if and when the divorce word is mentioned, all bets are off. I don't want to look desperate, but I will push like hell if it looks like he is truly moving on.<P>Truthseeker is right, what do you have to loose. I hear wonderful things about Retrouvaille, and would love to get my H there too, he's just not ready yet. I am hoping he'll attend one in September with me. <BR>You're right, you may get a real stinker for a counselor if you go through the courts. Can you guys negotiate a bit, and you tell him that if he willingly attends Retrouvaille or goes to Marriage Counseling, that you will not make him to the mandated counseling? I don't think it's bad for him to see you taking some control of things. It may help him to see the strong, dedicated woman you have turned in to.<P>allison

Hi FHL and Deb -<P>I found out the law part and sent a letter to my attorney asking why I was never told and have been tossed around like an old shoe!!!!<P>We will discuss it all on Monday, so NO I don't know what I can or cannot still apply at this point.<P>I have to have a decision ready should it be the case that I do have these options.<P>Keep thinking FHL and Thanks for the Hugs Deb.....I know that I need to be able to believe that I have done all I can....but perhaps the best thing I CAN do is let him work this out his own way in his own time.....<P>Oh, I don't know!!!!! I only wish God wasn't so darn quiet all the time and would speak up instead of hinting!!!!<P>

I'm still thinking.....<P>Wish you'd come up with an easy one every now and then!!!<P>Luv ya!<P>Lori

One amazing thing about you, Sheba, is how you steadfastly refused to play any games...even when they would have been in your best interest...or even old W-a-D's.<P>I think your personal conflict is that your personal style that pretty much allowed W-a-D to keep W-a-Doddling and pretty much avoid conflict or confrontation came from your conviction to not play games and go with what you felt was right. So in a weird way it was win-win. W-a-D maintained a bond with you and you were at peace with how you were proceeding.<P>Now what your heart wants...explore saving the marriage or at least not letting go of it, because after all it is your lifetime committment and you know W-a-D is messed up and you suspect that you need to protect the marriage for both of you.<P>However, unlike going with your heart up until now, you know (or strongly suspect) that you will endanger the very bond you have fought so hard to maintain.<P>But yet you really can't go against your heart, can you? <P>Tell me this, Sheba...which route...letting D go on or exploring new options...seems more truthful and is not playing games?<P>On a practical note...what would using infidelity do for the proceedings or for settlement?

Hey Warrior Gal, <P>Well, I have an opinion, but it may not be what you want to hear. <P>Sheba, I take issue with what you said regarding your efforts to pull your marriage together. I believe you have done all you can do and in fact, I think your efforts have been beyond reproach. <P>Any man in his right mind would love to have a woman like you as their wife. You give effortlessly. You are witty. You speak from your heart. You lend a hand when most others walk away. I could on and on. <P>Sheba, my point is you HAVE done all you can. Making your h go to counseling when he doesn't want to would foster resentment in my opinion. I know you love this man dearly. I also know you would give your right arm to have him love you back in the smallest way. But, I have learned that you can't make someone love you. You can only be someone who can be loved; the rest is up to them. <P>Sheba, the good news is that you ARE someone who can be loved. Counseling and/or Retrouvaille will work when you and your H BOTH want to heal your marriage. <P>I never was able to get my wife to go to counseling. Anytime I asked, she felt pressured to respond in a way she didn't feel. Perhaps others have been more successful in forcing counseling and if so I hope they respond. <P>I know how you feel. I pray that some day my wife will once again see me as the man she can desire, respect, and love like I want to be loved. Until then, I can only offer her my best. The rest is up to her.<P>Sheba, do what you think is right. Never tire from doing what is right and good. The Lord will guide you in these difficult decisions. Be open to His answer even if it's not what you want it to be. <P>Here's a hug and a punch in the arm for you!<P>Best wishes and prayers,<P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

To be honest, I agree with SHA about counceling...actually his whole post.<P>However, YOU need to figure out what will bring SHEBA peace from the process.<P>You always put doing "the right thing" ahead of figuring out the best angle.<P>If you let the D proceed, you have been wayyy beyond reproach. But if your new options would bring you greater peace about your personal efforts or put you in a position of greater security (hey you have got a life to live), then you need to do what you feel you need to do.<P>I think I'm just restating what I already said...but who knows...this is so complicated.<P>We all have faith in you, Sheba.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sheba:<BR><B>I am sooooo torn. I don't want this divorce, have maintained that all the way through. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't know your whole story, and others here obviously do, but here is my opinion, one size fits all.<P>I don't see how slowing down the divorce process and seeking counseling can possibly be a lovebuster. <P>You don't want this divorce and you want counseling. If it is rushed through, you may have a lifetime to wonder "what-if"? <P>It is one thing to be aggressive in a divorce proceeding over money or possessions, or to just run up the bill by being contrary. That is not what you are contemplating. Your motives are pure.<P>I say slow the game down, see what happens. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited June 22, 2000).]

Sheba,<P>I didn't read all the replies 'cause I gotta run but here is my take:<P>It would not work to force anyone into counselling and you do stand to lose his goodwill.<P>BUT, I'm learning to think more "out of the box". It doesn't always have to be either or...<P>Don't know what terms you guys are on now, but you could think about using this as LEVERAGE to get something you could both be "enthusiastic" about.<P>Make a list of what YOU want now and maybe you could negotiate something.<P>But you would need to find something he can be happy about doing, even if he thinks it's only for you, not himself.<P>I don't know your story well. Does he want to get the divorce so he can remarry or just to end things?<P>You said you're on good terms but haven't talked much. Again, I don't know the rest of the story, but if it were me I would trade it for something I wanted. Like - Here's the thing, I just found out about this mandatory counselling you haven't done, etc., I don't want to bog it down for you, I just want to close it well. I'll sign it if we go to Retrouville (sp?) or on a cruise (where you can relate with no interruptions), or whatever. Sheba, I know I'm reaching here, just saying what I would do.<P>Just wanted to give you more options. It seems you've already done all in your power anyway, but it might not have to be a yes or no answer here.<P>Take care, dear Lady.<BR>------------------<BR>Cindy<p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited June 22, 2000).]

Sheba:<P>This is difficult. I'll start with some philosophy.<P>First, divorce is a legal action, not an emotional one. I don't think a decree changes your situation much one way or the other. If he comes back, it will be because he wants to, not because he took a vow. He's already trashed that one.<P>Second, there is no way to get someone to open up that doesn't want to. My guess is that your husband would view counseling as pure torture, just as mine would. And why not? They've got so much to be ashamed of that they've been avoiding. The last thing they want to do is confront themselves. Even if you say it's to help you gain closure or for you to learn, forget it. How open has he been with telling you what you need to change? Don't answer, you know that I already know. If you back the animal into the corner by forcing the counseling, expect him to last out.<P>Third, the only hope to turn him around is TIME. That's it. You can't make it happen NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. That's not to say you should become obnoxious when thus far you've been a delight, but continuing to delight him probably won't do it by itself either. The change needs to come from him.<P>The only thing that I see delaying the divorce to do is to prevent him from rapidly remarrying someone else, which pretty much closes off his way back to you. So I vote for PLEASANTLY delaying the divorce to give you more time. It's clear to me you still are 100% committed to this man so I WILL NOT encourage you to move on. How could I anyway - I'm just a little behind you in the time line.<P>Best of luck and don't forget to pray.

Sheba,<P>No wonder you have been hiding!<P>My opinion would be to talk directly to your h and lay out the same info to him. <P>I agree with SHA that you have done everything. You can't drag WD into couseling, it has to be up to him. If you want to give him more time to think about it, thats okay, but it doesn't sound like he wants to think about anything.<P>I think by laying out your options to him, and how he reacts to them will be your reference on which way to go.<P>God Bless and good luck,<P>Bob

Sheba,<P>I am most definately not one probably to be giving advice so I will just give my two cents. If it was me in that situation, I would want to try and go for counseling that way I would know I had done everything possible to save the marriage. I wish in a way the state I live in had that clause. But my H doesn't have any problems that he needs to tell anyone. You know. <P>Just my two cents. I think maybe if they get there and you have a good counselor that progress can possibly be made and if not well you tried your darndest.<P>If only I could get my H to my counselor just once I think it would help but that would be when h*** freezes over.<P>Good luck and my thoughts are with you.

I am not sure what is the best thing to do, but I don't think pushing mandatory counseling is a good idea. Counseling is NOT effective unless the participants WANT to be there and are willing to change. Forcing someone to go isn't the way to make that happen. Like you said, it could make him turn against you.<P>Can you get the delay without the mandatory counseling? If so, I'd go that route.

Sheba...I keep thinking of how you wrote once that a piece of paper was not going to change your heart....so maybe delaying the D for the sake of delaying it really holds little value at this point.<P>However, if this is what your heart tells you to do...then you are probably right. If there is some value to you or if you just can't handle signing papers for Irreconsilable Differences when you know it is not, then carefully consider your alternatives.<P>Take care!

Sheba...<P>I know you'd like as much input as you can get...<P>...no matter what it was!<P>You've been through a <B>hell</B> of a lot!<P>What is going to make you satisfied...<BR>...when your time on the earth is over?<P>I don't know the answer.<BR>I don't know if you think of being the saint.<P>I do know...<BR>...whatever you decide...<BR>...we can back you on it!<P>Ok...<BR>...again the sepecifics will come out when yout talk to your lawyer...<BR>...and you'll have to make the decision on your feet.<P>I have pondered partially the same question that you are basically asking...<P>Do you let the divorce go through... in the hope that the "light will turn on" quicker!<BR>...or hold back the divorce... to give your spouse more time to come around.<P>WWJD...<P>WWSD...<P>Wisdom says keep the marriage alive as long as possible...<P>I would (please take this from one coming from a divorce being shoved down his throat)... do whatever it would take to lengthen the marriage.<P>Force the counseling... maybe not...<BR> (courts ability to help marriages just stink... very poor track record)<BR>"limited divorce"... definitely...<BR>"18 month separation"... I'd say yes...<P>You can't change your H!!!<P>You can stay the course.<P>If you feel the course varies...<BR>...then your heart will lead you that way!<P>When you make the decision(s)...<BR>...have no regrets!<P>So take heart... wisdom...<BR>...you'll be OK.<P> <P>Jim

One minor detail...if the option you choose comes with mandatory counseling, but you did not choose that option based soley on the counseling, then YOU aren't making him go, the court is.<P>If that option is in your best interest overall, then counseling is only one factor to consider.<P>I keep checking back to see how you are doing....how are you?