How may here think that their WS is actually suffering from Mental Illness and the Affair is really just a symptom of a much larger and deeper problem?<P>I'm just kinda curious as this is a topic that I haven't seen Harley touch on. At least, not the stuff I've read.<BR>

It depends on what type of mental illness you are referring to. I bet many of us (betrayed) might say that their spouse's are suffering from depression.<P>Especially those of us who have seen our spouses become totally "other" people. <P>People who are depressed covertly, will very often try to find "something" (work, exercise, affairs, sex, gambling, drugs, alcohol) to alleviate those feelings. Very often the boundaries between them and the substance becomes blurred.<P>My H behaved like a true addict.....when the affair hit the light of day. He would go to work and be normal (he was a workaholic also) and actually appear "high" very energetic etc. then come here and walk in the house like he was withdrawing. He would turn the heat up, put a hooded sweatshirt on and still shiver...he felt cold....he looked old and tired and would sleep...<P>When I would mention depression he would look at me and say "I'm not depressed".....<P>Some authors even call midlife crises, mid life depressions....<P>I know both Nellie1 and NSR have stated that their spouses are depressed. Mental's H has some problems as well...depression could be one of them...<P>Actually, if you look at the q&a section here at MB he has answers a question on depression!!!!!<P>I would think that anyone suffering from a narcissitic personality disorder would also choose an affair as a "self-medication" for their illness. <P>Do you think your WS has symptoms?????<P>There have been many links to psych sites that I have read on this board...I just don't remember any of them.. But if you search under psychiatric disorders I'm sure yu will find some good info!!!!!

I read a post on the midlife crisis section of the divorcebusting board that there was an article in last weeks's NY Times Sunday paper (June 25th) about depression in men. One psychiatrist was quoted as saying that in cases where men suddenly leave a long-term marriage, it is invariably depression. <P>As tootrusting mentioned, I am sure my H is suffering from depression. At one point before he left, I said to him that it seemed like he had lost interest in everything he used to be interested in, and he agreed. He had just about every symptom on the list.

Hi TT,<P>Yes, I do now recall the Harley article you referred to. I believe he said that the illness would need to be addressed before any work could take place in the marriage.<P>My H appears to suffer from some type of mental disorder. Not sure exactly what, but he's finally gotten to the point where he admits he needs some help. He told me today he intends on making an appointment to see a psychiatrist tomorrow.<P>I guess I posed the question because I'm wondering how many affairs are really just masking a larger problem. And, until that problem is addressed, then no amount of Plan A/Bing is going to make much of a difference.

I don't know if depression is really a mental illness or not. I do know some professionals think of it as a disease. I also know that my H wasn't suffering from any mental illness during the affair. I was the one suffering. I had a very bad bout of depression, I don't know which came first though, the depression or the problems with the marriage.<BR>I just know that I have to have counseling, and I need this for me, I am a type of person that wouldn't do something like that just for me but I know that my whole family suffers when I don't.

Hi Nellie,<P>I'll be sure and check the divorce busting site and look into that article. That's very interesting. I'm going to be curious to see what the psychiatrist my H is going to see says about his situation.<P>I once spoke with a doctor who had spent many years treating addicts, and he told me that many times they have to hit rock bottom before they will reach out for help. And, even then, sometimes they never do.<P>I would think the same would hold true for the depressed. You can't force them to get help, they must first admit they have a problem.<P>I reread your bio, is your divorce still going through? How are you holding up?<P>

Yes, yes, yes! My h suffered from a major case of depression based largely on our daughters leaving at the same time to go to college. Also, some deep rooted childhood issues chose to come out then. He literally wasn't in his right mind and it caused him to turn his back on everything he believed and cherished. Men who cheated on their wives would make him sick to his stomach. Then he became one. He is on medication and in counseling now and we are doing so well.

I'm going to look into that article in the NYT also.<P>Depression is actually in the psychiatric classification of disorders. Of course there are types of depression...situational being one type probably many of us have suffered from<P>I think there are some theories of chemical imbalances (or some type of brain scan changes) in other types of depression.<P>Sidney, My h turned a switch off SUDDENLY, not only to me but to the kids and everything in the house and his family of origin....... He left suddenly...became a workaholic and exercise nut also....along with EA with coworker.<P>I've only seen a few glimpses of his old self. On the night oP's H confronted the two of them together...H called me and talked to me for 3 hours.....he even admitted to missing sleeping in our bed with me.....he then said ...he didn/t know why he said that.<P>Everyone!!!!!! friends, family, colleagues, marraige counselor, kids counselor, can see my H has completely walled off his emotions.<P>I think he must be still lying to his counselor or refusing to take meds. My H barely sleeps 4 hours of uninterrupted sleep a night and has been this way for many years...He obsessses about work etc. I asked him if he told his therapist. He replied No.....they had too many other important things to talk about.<P>My H is really going to have to hit rock bottom....Unfortunatly...he has the financial means to keep this fantasy going. The kids counselor told me that noone can ever predict what will make them hit rock bottom.....<P>I see my H and just want to hold him and hug him....but he has been so cold...so mean...and we aren't even talking now!!!!!<P>I keep praying for a miricle.

I found the reference to the NYTimes article on the divorcebusting.com website. It's actually a condensed version within a post:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com/ubb/Forum34/HTML/000524.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.weiner-davis.com/ubb/Forum34/HTML/000524.html</A> <P>Hi Chick's,<P>I can relate to you. I was having difficulty with my job (I was being taken advantage of) & I wasn't handling it well. It was during this timeframe that my H entered into the affair. I realize now that I was depressed. I would come home and vent and my H felt powerless to fix my problem. As we all know, men are supposed to be able to fix everything! I read somewhere once, that depression in a family can actually be contagious. I wonder now if I gave it to him!!<P>Hi Hopeful,<P>That is just so wonderful to hear! You're H sounds like a carbon copy of mine. He detested cheaters & never forgave his mom for cheating on his dad. Said he would NEVER do that. That's very encouraging to hear that meds & counseling are working.<P>Hi again TT,<P>I too will be praying for your miracle. I think it is the suddeness of it all that is the most shocking. I know in my case, I felt completely blindsighted. In thinking back though, there were telltale signs. The most obvious being his grumpiness & irritability. Another was his constant complaints about having sore muscles. Whenever I suggested he go see a doctor, of course, it was always, "There's nothing they can do." The funny thing is that I recently came across an Email to him from OW & she suggested he get on anti-deps. So, even she could see it. I don't think it was until she began urging him that he finally looked into it. As we all know, wives don't know anything.

My husband was diagnosed with Bipolar I disorder with suicidal tendencies and acute alcoholism in January. His return to alcohol after 17 and a half years of sobriety exacerbated his dormant illness, that incidentally, surfaced from time to time throughout our entire marriage, but since he was not sober, I just thought he was mildly depressed and had an occasional 'mean' streak. He was just a sick pup.<P>Meds work to stabilize his chemical imbalance when he isn't drinking, however, he is having a tough time staying sober...and now I don't think he wants to stay sober because he has so much regret and remorse to deal with. He would rather hide in the bottle and makes little effort to get well.<P>He has become complacent and his health has lost its prioity on his list of the ten most important things in his life. Soon, I will no longer be important again because in a few months of drinking, he will begin to blame me and hate me for his actions.<P>And the beat goes on.<P>catnip =^^=

Hi Catnip,<P>Sorry to hear your H is having such a tough time with sobriety. I, too, have a sneaking suspicion that my H might be bipolar-- he has had bouts of paranoia which is a sign of the mania. He's also had many episodes of insomnia throughout our marriage in which he refers to the "gremlins" coming out. I always thought they were simply regrets & unresolved issues from childhood. Now, I'm not so sure. Like your H, he too, did his share of drinking, but had to stop due to heart arrythmias plus he now gets horrendous hangovers if he has more than one.<P>My heart goes out to you. I know what you are going through.

It's funny how you say depression can be contagious in a family...My H has pretty much always been unhappy. In fact if you ask him how he enjoyed something and he says "it was all right"...that means the best for him!!!<P>I do think I probably was getting depressed during the past stressful year... I think I withdrew from my H...taking care of the kids and just living my own life. But you know, I guess I thought we were having a slumP....due to his having to work 7 days a week, and be on call, having no backup!!! except OP. When a new partner joined him and he began to have weekends off again i figured things would improve,,,,and they did....until the mission trip with OP...<P>I guess the groundwork for their relationship was already there!!!! Great friendship, comiserating about work issues, support, etc!!!! ta da.<P>My H came home from the trip sooooooo different...and very grandiose. Kind of narcissitic...He actually seemed to me to think he was on some special ordained mission in life. He actually said the kids didn't understand what love really was, when eldest said she thought he loved us the day he moved out!!!<P>I read a great article about people facing their "shadows" or ego....as in a mid life crisis.. It said that a person who is compasionate, kind, affectionate can turn into a self-absorbed, narcissitic, cold being in one day!!!! <P>The marraige counselor recommended a great book called "King, Warrior, Magician, Lover" by Gillette and Moore.<P>It describes the male psyche. It is a great book dealving into why some men cannot get himself together...or experience or feel.<P>THe book further postulates that the man who is having this difficulty is the man who remains the boy----having not been shown how to transform the boy energies into the man energies.<BR>THe Authors look at each type and the "shadow" or dark side of each type. When I read the "shadow" lover it pretty much decribed my H's actions to a tee!!!<P>My H has always been very introverted, conservative, doing the right thing...never anything illegal..I don't think he even drank underage..and hardly would drink now.... Always MR. nice guy, conflict avoider, white shirt and tie.....<P>He is definately the polar opposite now!

Hi TT,<P>Your H sounds very, very similar to mine. Mine always saw everything in black & white, very conservative, "straight arrow for 20 years" (as he puts it), a Type A personality. Yesterday, he told me that he knows he's in trouble and needs some help. Here is part of my other thread: <P>He is going to make an appt tomorrow to see a psychiatrist. He said he needs "help in dealing with his self-destructive behavior" and "some guidance". He said that over the course of the last 2 years he has evolved into an ego-centric, selfish, child and that he is having a difficult time in grasping reality-- he described it as "everything feels surreal & fluid". He said he is compulsive & cannot seem to consider the consequences of his actions prior to doing them. He also said he knows he's irresponsible. That he knew I would probably find the cellphone but that he just didn't care. I asked him if he wanted me to find it and he said, "No". He said he used to consider himself a moral & decent person, but now the lies & deceit just flow effortlessly & it really, really bothers him.

Wow, Sidney, that is great!!! The fact that he admits he has a problem.<P>That is truly the first step...and he really seems to have a handle on some of his inner conflicts or issues!!!! A psychiatrist can prescribe meds too!<P>Unfortunately, my H is a physician himself..and you know the old saying "physician heal thyself"!!! Well he isn't.... He has the means to keep this going for a while...... He can afford two lifestyles so he can assuage his guilt alittle....<P>My H will now say that this is not about me or OP...it is about him....but he can't seem to figure out that it is kindof a problem if you feel more connected to your staff at work, and people who live thousands of miles away (from when he did the missionary thing) than to your children, wife, and family of origin!!!! <P>I see his pain and confusion....It's so sad because he seems to feel guilty for what he has....hence the "antimaterialism" thing. Yet, he obsesses over the stock market....and he flew the 3 kids to Boston this past weekend, stayed at a nice hotel and spent a lot of $ on cabs, food, tours!!!!, then he comes home to stay in his sparce apt....no TV, no Computer... When he left here he left everything even his toothbrush, and razor..... Kind of like he needed to dissociate from his "things" in the house as well as us!!!!!!

Hi TT,<P>Do you suppose our H's are really twins separated at birth?? The similarities are eerie. My H also said the problem was "him" and it was nothing I did or didn't do. When he was gone for 6 months in his self-imposed excile, he, too had no TV, just a radio and he said he read a lot of books.<P>What really frightens me at this very moment, is that he told me this morning that he has no control over his actions, whatsoever. No inhibitions, no thought as to possible consequences, no goals. He's just living in the here and now. Like when he was a teenager! I LB'd big time and said, "Then perhaps you need to be single again." He stormed out of the room and 5 minutes later he was demanding a big hug from me.<P>I'm really, really afraid right now. I just think he is teetering on the edge. I've been trying to get through to a psychiatrist today, but I'm guessing most are off for the holiday.<P>

Wow. Sidney, TT, I think our husbands may have been triplets.<P>My H has said more than once that his affairs are not because of me;they're because of him.<P>In my case I believe that sadboy hit the nail on the head when he said he thinks my H has a sexual addiction. My H has spent a lifetime trying to live up to his parents' expectations and feels as though he has failed on all accounts. He says that he gets a temporary high when other women find him desireable.<P>He, too, has been disconnected recently, but has refused to see a psychiatrist or any type of counselor. Fortunately, in our last "make up" he agreed to see one with me since it seems to be what "I" need.<P>I think the MB concepts describe a basic set of circumstances that allow affairs to happen, but I think that few affairs are so simple as to be only caused by the factors discussed here. <P>Take care and try to enjoy the holiday. --HBC

Hi HBC,<P>I agree with you wholeheartedly. I really believe that some affairs happen regardless of whether important "needs" are being met or not. I think that some spouses are sooo needy in certain areas of ego gratification that there is no way a spouse could even come close to filling that need. My H has always had a charming propensity to flirt & women of all ages gravitate to him. This never seriously bothered me because he was so devoted to me & so adament about his beliefs that infidelity was so wrong. In fact, he would become rather jealous if I so much as mentioned another man, as in a coworker. I always felt that he was very sensitive to adultery because of what he saw as a child with his mom. And, the effect it had on his dad. Well, lo and behold! I suppose history does repeat itself!!<P>On top of all this, I think he has inherited some type of mental illness from his mom. He has always referred to his mother as a "wacko" & having met her a couple of times, I know why. I would say she has a definite narcissistic personality. She completely cut any contact with him 10 years ago when he asked her not to smoke in our home.<P>I'm having a particularly bad day today. I completely lost it and suggested we put the house on the market as I can see no signs of improvement in our situation. I told him rather emotionally that I've been living in this"hellish place" for a year now & I don't want to spend the rest of my life like this. I told him that I really want him to get some help but that he's going to have to assume responsibility because I just can't do it anymore. (He asked ME to call the psychiatrist today.) He became very agitated & demanded that I get control of myself. He told me that he didn't think it was "necessary" to sell the house. That he is optimistic about our situation!! He insisted on hugging me. Then said that he's focusing on one day at a time right now. He gets up in the morning, gets through the day, then goes to bed. That's it. Of course, he left out the occassional rendevous with OW!

Well, this thread is at least giving me something to think about except lonliness!!!!<P>I mentioned the Gilette book earlier...here is some of the shadow lover info.<P>" as long as a man is possessed by the Shadow lover, the masculine energy works to his distruction and to the destruction of others around him. THe primary and most deeply distrubing characteristic of the shadow lover as Addict is his lostness. The lostness shows up in the way that the Addict lives for the pleasure of the moment only and locks themselves into a web of immobility that they can't escape!!!"<P>"In his lostness, he is eterally restless.. This is a man who is always searching for something. He has an insatiable hunger to experience some vague something that is just over the next hill."<P>Anyway...If you actually read a lot about the unconscience, books such as this one, or anything that C.G.Jung has written.....it pretty much describes the dark side of the personality especially manifested in a mid-life depression.<P>It is still something that they need to work out....it is always good if they go to counseling..... but they have to be willing to work out the problems....<P>My H seems content to blame me, the marraige, the kids.... and to continue to stay obscessed with his work world, mission, antimaterialism thing.<P>The crisis part I don't mind....I could handle it...but the fact that my H doesn't get that I would feel somewhat humiliated that Op tells my kids teacher's gleefully that he and I are getting divorced....and tells his office staff (who I have known for 8 years and who had seen me in the offic with the kids at least 4 times a week prior to the trip) that he and I had long term marital problems.... (none of which I have heard yet)<P>Or that my life revolved around his colleages, functions with them or the 2 hospitals....or our neighbors...all who work with them..... (we live in a very small town) and it has been suddenly ripped out from under me...... He just doesn't see how someone would feel bad about this. He seems to think he should just be able to do what he wants and have me here taking care of the kids..... It is soooooooooooo un like my H!!!

Very interesting, TT. The "shadow lover" definitely describes my H. He is waging a path of destruction, yet he says he can't stop himself. <P>Sometimes, I really believe that he's trying to take me down with him. The only times he becomes very attentive & concerned about me is when I break down and cry. He tries to comfort me, wipes my tears, rubs my neck and tells me to hug him. It's as if the only time he feels needed as a man is when he knocks me down. Like it's a power & control thing. It's really not that much different than physical abuse.<P>I know that H blamed me for much of his unhappiness, especially with OW feeding him tales of her unhappy marriage. But, I think he quickly discovered that once separated from me, he didn't feel better, he actually felt worse.<P>I really don't know how much longer I can remain a player in this vicious, destructive cycle. I'm beginning to believe that the only way he's going to wake up & come to grips with his problems is if I follow through with leaving him. I think he's terrified of me leaving. Yesterday, he confided to me that I am his "tether" to reality. That he doesn't think he can emotionally survive without me. Yet, he seems to be doing everything in his power to drive me away.<P>I know what you mean about them not understanding the depth of our pain. My H was astonished when I told him how damaged my self esteem was after I found out he was cheating on me. They seem to be oblivious to everyone and everything around them.<P>In a note I intercepted that OW had written to him, she commented on a statement he had made to her. It was "people only change after life altering experiences".<P>Perhaps, the only way he's going to snap out of this and change is if I leave him.

Interesting Topic. Haven't heard many mentally ill W's here.<P>My wife (age 42) married 12 years with a 4 yr old daughter seems to be experiencing an episode of trying to recapture her high school glory days with men she knew in HS. Kind of a wander lust has been triggered and she's having an affair with a HS flame in her home town 3 hours from our home.<P>I didn't find out until last week. Marriage counselling 4 months and nothing but denial, denial, denial since I found out recently.<P>She has left me and D for Mem. Day weekend and now the 4th weekend (FRI - TUE) to be with him.<P>Unresolved childhood issues? Illness? Anyone?<P>