Can a person really recover with their spouse after they've had an A with a co-worker and continue to still work with same co-worker? <P>How many of you have experience with this as either the betrayer with a coworker or the betrayed spouse?<P><BR>What can you/or spouse do that helps? <BR>What should be avoided?<P>My case is my H and OW are co-workers. She is still madly in love with him and is "waiting with hope" that he will come back to her. So far hasn't done anything radical but be in extreme withdrawal and depression since my H dedicated himself to our marriage. My H has been everything loving and good since d-day (3 months today) and continually reassures me with his words and deeds. But I just can't help but think it will just be a matter of time before the bomb hits. <P>His work is very important to him and he has gotten so much recognition and learned so much since working there--and the money is the best he's ever made so I understand his view that changing jobs is unthinkable. I agree with my head. My heart says this is insane! OW could work anywhere but is not inclined to leave where "the man she will love forever" works. <P>Any insights?<P>Mahalo,<BR>Leilana<BR>

Count us in! Robert and PT "fell in love" at work and they still work for the same company! <P>It was pretty rough at first....PT was relentless. Tracked him down constantly, letters, vm msgs proclaiming her love, tricks AUUUGGGHHHH! <P>He was vulnerable at first. I was wonderful....told him I felt sorry for her, I knew how she felt. Eventually, it really got on his nerves and HE started pushing her away even harder. Now he pretty much ignores her or is mean to her and we're down to a msg every week or two (instead of 12-15 per DAY!) and hardly ever tracking him down at work.<P>I don't worry. As long as we're doing what we're supposed to do and building the marriage we deserve, she's not competition...neither is anyone else. That's the key, I think. <P>But, it's gotten on his nerves SO badly that, just recently, on his own, HE asked for a transfer!!! I was thrilled! I hadn't mentioned it since he came home! He did it all by himself.....so I KNOW where his heart is!<P>That's our story.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

Lori,<BR>You are amazing!<BR>What do you do to give yourself such strength? What was your "mantra", daily affirmation, or mind set that helped you deal with their constant contact? <P>I'm usually quite strong but occasionally have "panic attacks" when I hear she called him. Hearing all this "addiction" to the OP-talk makes me doubt the strength of our recovery which has been quite good. He says he is totally in love with me many times a day. However my H still sees her as a sweet, innocent and kind person who has been victimized by her H. Which I also believe except for the part about asking my H to leave me for her and willing to abandon her children to try to get him back! Mini-vent.<P>We're doing the MB program--Thank you, God, for that--but the continued coworking is SO not allowed in the program that it gives no detailed instruction for us that have failed (for whatever reason)to followed that step.<BR>We are in recovery but are expected to treat the marriage like the A is still ongoing--a Plan A? So what would be the trigger to go to Plan B? <P>You are my poster-child for this, Lori!<BR>

My H and OP are coworkers too. THey work side by side all day.......and have lunch together and drive in a car together.<P>She used the damsel in distress routine also. Unfortunately, when there was too much negativity in their work community re: the situation.......my H backed down...said he never said he wanted a relationship with her just that they are very close coworkers who share some antimaterialism missionary bond thing!!!!! (EA)<P>THey were both doing the same thing.....working together......living in their own sparse apts...obsessing about each other i guess.....but doing things with their spouses and kids....she was telling him to be nice so he would look good!!!!<P>So.....I had to back away! Told him I wouldn't be his friend while he was her friend.\<P>Now...he is really mad at me..... He liked it the way it was! But now, he is seeing the kids non stop.....every other weekend he takes friday off and takes them somewhere..he sees them one or two eve a week and will even have one spend the night !!!!!<P>My H thinks he can outsmart this thing... I know him well!!! He's going to have to hit rock rock bottom!!! whatever that will be I do not know!

I'm also a member of this club. I would have rather belonged to Toastmasters, but we could only belong to one club and W filled out the application not me.<P>W and OM are team members on a two-person team. They sometimes have separate projects and sometimes there are joint projects. They are in adjacent cubicles, etc.<P>They were close friends before the affair, so I couldn't really say anything bad about him. After all he was an admired "free spirit" and a "soulmate". I always tried to include references to him when we discussed the lack of progress and the pain involved. I always acknowledged that he was in pain also. <P>One thing that made it easier for me not to trash him in front of her is that in my mind, she carries almost total responsibility for the affair. Others on this forum seem to blame OP exclusively making their WS an unfortunate "victim". That's not the way it is, however. I don't absolve OM from all guilt or from being a scummy dirtbag who took advantage of another's confusion, but my W decided to sleep with him. If she hadn't, there wouldn't have been a PA.<P>Anyway, off my soapbox for now. Lori and I discussed this exact issue this morning. I agree with her that the "no-contact" part of the MB philosophy doesn't seem to be absolutely necessary. By writing a "no-contact" letter, you are just setting the stage for hurt feelings, lies and LB'ers. If you don't believe that, just read thru the posts. There are very few where a "no-contact" agreement wasn't violated at least once, if not several times. And when they work together, it's almost impossible.<P>Plan A is the key. Hard, driving Plan A with no let-up. Make you and your home the place your H would rather be. Be understanding, forgiving and display a positive attitude. It's hard, no doubt about that. I've done my share of whining and complaining about the difficulty of constant Plan A when it seems he world is falling down around you, but it works.<P>Workplace romances fail all of the time. When they do, the party desiring the break-up doesn't seem to have problems continuing to work with the former lover. An affair can end the same way. Even if they get separated by different jobs, the affair can continue. And if the WS doesn't find what they want at home, there is always someone else if OP leaves.<P>I can't say it enough....Plan A, Plan A, Plan A. Don't disparage the OP or try to say things to make them look bad in WS's eyes. Make them look bad by your exemplary behavior and demonstrations of love and understanding.<P>Keep posting, good luck and lots of hugs...we will be here if you need us....<P>--DeWayne--

I will try. I will really, really try to do as you suggest. I know Plan A is the way to go, I know I need to show exemplary behavior--it's just so damn hard! The OP is a daily--8hour factor most here don't have to worry about. They spend more time near OP than with us. It's hard not to be discouraged or anxious. WS's just don't get it! Especially if they are really walking the straight and narrow. They are doing all the right things but still not getting the results they deserve because of our very real fears. I needed to hear your pep-talk, guys. Thank you so much. It's going to keep me going for a while longer. I'll tell myself if DeWayne and Lori can do it, so can I! <P>Maybe I should download it to re-read when I get into these doubting periods.<P>Examples of how you guys are rebuilding with the coworker-OP still on the scene will help me oodles. I'll watch for your posts. Please pop off any suggestion or thought you have at any time. I'm starving for commrades in this lonely and impossible cruisade.<P>Sorry to hear of your troubles, Tootrusing.<BR>I hope the advice I've gotten does something for you as well.<P>I literally L'dOL about your club comment, Heartpain--first time anybody here could make me do that--you've got a great twisted sense of humor as well as some very sound advice. Thanks, too, for the "no contact" letter info--I've been going in circles over that issue (it was never done and didn't make sense here. And I felt like we might have failed a very important step. You relieved my fears)<P>I mostly blame my H re: the affair--it was just an ego boost for him and I hate the way he rationalizes the A that he was "just trying to make her happy" so that makes him look wonderful in his own eyes. I really did sympathize with the OW's sad life story and understand how she could have fallen for my H. But now I find myself beginning to resent her persistence and not doing the "right thing" now that the cards are all out on the table... It is true she initiated everything. My H just fell right into her plans all too willingly. It is so hard not to LB when he defends her selfish actions with "because she's so in love with me" or his own "I don't like to see people hurting"! Roaring-vent!! But to recap, he says he loves only me and doesn't love her and shows me love continually. I just think he's deluding himself about the his reason for the A. Maybe that's why I'm so anxious.<P>Question:<BR>Is there any way besides what I'm doing to open his eyes about his ego or self-esteem being his weakness to an A or is that an unforgivable LB?<P>Love and understanding, grace and dignity--whenever I can remember--I tell myself to behave with these all the time--I've done well, I think, but I get lost or forget sometimes. You've reminded me. <P>Love and prayers to all of you,<BR>Leilana<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited July 03, 2000).]

Leilana - Glad I could make you laugh. Laughter kept me sane over the last 15 months.<P>When you are here and need a good laugh, look up Medic's(Tim) posts. He has an incredible sense of humor and I have nearly fallen off my chair in the past, reading his posts/replies.<P>About Plan A, I don't want you to get the wrong idea. It doesn't always work with the WS(but often does), but it does always work for you. You will be a much better person when this is over whether or not you are still with your husband.<P>Also, don't get me wrong about "no-contact". If it is done and done successfully, it is the fastest way to get WS into withdrawal and on to recovery. But, I don't believe that the idea that it is absolutely necessary is always correct or possible.<P>We're here with you, Leilana, and most of us have made mistakes in letting down our guard and LB'ing from time to time. It's gonna happen to you, too. Just try to keep the damage to a minimum and <B>always</B> know you can count on all of us for support and help. We are here for you......<P><BR>--DeWayne--

Well heartpain, I really blew it on plan A.. I was getting nowhere....every time I seemed to get stronger my H would reel me in by telling me he wanted to work on the marraige and go to counseling.....<P>THen we got there and he told the counselor he saw us heading for D, and thought we should be able to talk civilly to each other.....yet we walked out of the office and he said "hey, do you want to go to dinner" at which point we had a great time with lots of conversation.<P>He does not want to give up his EA with the OP.... He even maintains that he doesn't want a relationship with her, they are just close coworkers who share some common bond.<P>He was being nice to me anyway...Ops' H told me she told him to be nice to me so he looked good in the community.<P>Now he is really mad at me because I am not talking to him...I told him I wouldn't be his friend while he was friends with OP!!!<P>Now he sees the kids a lot....and comes here and asks them to ask me if he can come in to change his cloths or asks them how I sound when they call me from his house!!!!<P>Frankly, I just wish they would go ahead and have sex!!! I'm thinking that was not our biggest problem lately...I feel it was feeling needed and admiration!!!! <P>Even I can see the appeal of having an office of women who adore you with an ingratiating OP by your side, compared with a wife who asks you to plunge a stopped up toilet and 3 whiny kids, all four that you see for about 2 hours an day!!!!!!<p>[This message has been edited by tootrusting (edited July 03, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tootrusting:<BR><B><BR>Even I can see the appeal of having an office of women who adore you with an ingratiating OP by your side, compared with a wife who asks you to plunge a stopped up toilet and 3 whiny kids, all four that you see for about 2 hours an day!!!!!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>TT--my H also works with only women--dozens of them. But thought our love kept us safe.<BR>It did up until OP started work there.<P>Yup, I've said many times how the A was like Disneyland. No reality to them. I sometimes wish my H and OW had gotten to live together and taken care of her two small children and deal with the bills, mortgage, in-laws, meals, cleaning, laundry, his self-interest (sports fanatic and athlete), time he needs alone, time he needs with his friends, yada,yada, yada!!<P>Maybe that would have made recovery that much more definate and faster--she's very jealous and possessive!!<P>Don't feel guilty for the reality part of marriage--my H (during the A)complained of being stifled--I wanted too much of his time--when we used to go days without seeing eachother and we don't have any kids and he had no responsiblities--financial or other--I did it all! It's just an excuse for bad behavior. As betrayed's we deal with the same reality all the time and we didn't go out and have an A because we felt we "deserved" it. Immature. Selfish. Ego-centric. I think I'm so venty cause it's my 3rd month d-day anniversary!! Forgive me!<P>You guys on General Questions respond so fast!! I love it!! I'm usually on recovery--which is as slow going as it's title.<BR>

Tootrusting - I'm sorry for where you find yourself. As I said above, I realize that Plan A doesn't always bring back a WS. In the end, my W may not stay, but I'm so much the better for having conducted things this way.<P>My W has told me several times that she gets this recurring feeling of wanting "freedom". She cannot describe what that entails, but I have told her that it is very common for a married person, even one happily married, to have times where they wish to be single and unattached with no responsibilities. Now W may not be thinking in those terms as this has been something she has talked about for many months, but the concept is familiar to me, too. Just agreeing with your point about your H seeing the women at work vs. you and the kids at home.<P>When all of this first started, I called our realtor to discuss what needed to be done to get an appraisal for property settlement reasons. I briefly described to her what was going on. Her comment to me, I will remember forever. She said "Reality is when both your names are on the utility bill". That's the point your H is missing right now. Eventually he will come out of this fog. The real question is will you be there for him? He may wait too long and you will have given up. But until you do, do your best to make home where he will want to be.<P>I know it's hard. D-day for us was 10 Apr 1999. I was in such shock and hurt that I didn't start Plan A until mid-to-late May. I've been doing this for over a year and it was just yesterday that W decided that we should "officially" try to mend the marriage and told me that she would like me to withdraw the divorce petition(I filed in Sep 1999 out of frustration that she wouldn't work on anything).<P>Others here have done this much longer than me, but even in my case, it took over 13 months to achieve any major breakthrough. So if you can, don't give up yet!!!<P>We are here for you, too....<P>Hugs,<P>--DeWayne--

She's BAACCKKK!! Hey, Bro, how're you doing???? Never mind, I know already! "Twisted sense of humor" - I like that!! LOL (Sorry Leilana - DeWayne's my big, OLDER brother!! Oh, and he's actually MET this husband of mine!!)<P>DeWayne's right, Leilana, we DID just have this discussion this very morning and that was b/f I read your post! And we're not the only ones that have succeeded here. Have you checked the posts for Crazy or What? No contact was difficult if not impossible for THEM, too and they're doing great!<P>It IS the fastest way. It IS the safest way, I think. But there's no way on God's green earth that Robert would have written a "no contact" letter. Forget, not gonna happen. And it wasn't practical. It worried me at first. Wanted to do things "by the book".<P>And don't let the "poor pitiful thing I have to defend her" stuff bother you. This, too, should pass - did with us! He still gets a teensy bit defensive from time to time, but mostly, he just gets annoyed! Did you read my post on PT's latest effort a couple of weeks ago? Robert laughed his butt off at how I handled it! He enjoyed it. <P>You know what? One of the things that I'VE found most comforting (eventually ) is that I DIDN'T have to insist on any conditions. They were slower coming, granted, but I didn't have to deal with any lies or secrets either. It was safe for him to be honest with me and.....without lies and secrecy this stuff dies fast! Every step he's made AWAY from her, he did on his own, out of respect for me and my feelings WITHOUT my asking. I don't HAVE to wonder. I guess what I'm saying is that it made the first couple of months much harder...but then it seemed to just get rolling and I don't have all that many fears anymore....after all, HE'S choosing not to talk with her most of the time, HE chose to ask for a transfer - all of his own free will. Now, my Darlin', I think that's saying something!! <P>Now, if I had had a choice, I'd have picked us moving to a nice romantic island far, far away - well, no, maybe I'd have had PT shipped far, far away - you get the idea! But, I'm content with the way it played out for us.<P>No one in the world could try more tricks than PT did....it would take VOLUMES to tell it all and even I don't talk that much. Doesn't matter. The more wonderful you are, the more the other stuff will get on his nerves. Don't worry about it...just be your sweet wonderful self and BELIEVE him when he says he loves you. As Robert told me once "your love for me and trust in me after all this is making me a strong man." That's all I needed to hear.<P>Ok, DeWayne, now agree with me!!! <P>Luv ya,<P>Lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited July 03, 2000).]

Leilana,<P>Thanks for asking this. The responses are those I need to keep hearing myself as well.<P>RRunRR

Heartpain -<P>I do not agree that ALL workplace romances "fail"....Gee, look at my stbx and Mia. They met at work, were joined together during projects and are still together to this very day. Yep, he is planning on marrying her! So, I guess their office romance was one of the ones that "worked" out. Too bad the statistics didn't work in my favor...<P>TL

Lori,<BR>Is PT her initials or your own inside joke?<BR>Thanks for that encouraging post.<P>R,<BR>Eh, me problema es su problema!<P>Tired Lady,<BR>I'm sorry about your situation. But what about that great statistic about the rate of success of marriages that started out as affairs? What was it again? Anyway it is very dismal. I know of one couple that started their marriage from an affair and have been married 21 years. They are the most miserable couple!! They've both have had affairs in their present marriage. So you see, there is such a thing as karma!

TL - I followed your story here pretty much all the way. It was really sad how things turned out. However, re-read my reply. There is a difference between "all" workplace romances fail and workplace romances fail "all" of the time. Subtle difference, I admit, but still a difference...<P>--DeWayne--

I am also interested if affairs with coworkers can be considered when conducting Plan A. My husband returned home on Father's Day after leaving 4 times between April and then. Each time I said I loved him and wanted to work things out. Granted there is more to work out on his part but I felt if he was just living at home it would be easier to work on. I usually post on the preg/child board because after a 2x brief affair the 22 year old she is pregnant! So I am trying to plan A but they work together plus he feels incredibly guilty about her pregnancy.(how about what he's done to us and our 4 children!!) I try to take it one day at a time. This board has been a lifesaver. I never would have dreamed there were so many people(sadly) in similar situations. If they didn't work together I would feel moere comfortable about our recovery. If she wasn't pregnant I would feel even better. I do my best Plan A and have recently come to the conclusion that what ever the outcome at least I can hold my head up high and say I gave it my best.

Hi Leilani,<P>My H also had his A with a co-worker. It lasted about 7/8 months I think, and then he saw her for what she really is. A fruitloop.<BR>I moved 2000 kms away from them - to get a bit of my mind back, and some peace.<BR>He has now moved here too.<BR>He still works for the same co., and so does she, but she will not speak to him at all. Even in a business environment. So not only is she a fruitloop, she's an unprofessional one too.....<P>Anyway, I have no idea at all about statistics, and from where I sit at the moment, I don't really care about statistics!! He had an affair, still doesn't know what he wants, will not work on us while he's unsure, and I don't want to wait around while he decides if 'that' particular patch might be greener than the last.<BR>(He has had 3 'relationships' since we broke up!!)<P>DeWayne's comment about toastmasters had me laughing too..... funny guy........<P>I hope everything works out for you. Your H sounds so positive about you two, and seems to be doing all the right things from what you write. Keep encouraging him. What Lori says seems to be so 'commonsense' but I guess we can only imagine the pain she must have gone through to get where she is today. And boy, does she not deserve it.... <BR>(Go Lori, here's the Aussie contingent cheering you on.......)<P>I hope it all works out for you, she gets offered another job the other side of the "black stump" and you and your H live happily ever after.<BR>Keep your chin up, and keep doing what you're doing. Letting him see that you are so much better than she is. And that with you is where he wants to be.<P>Hugs to you<BR>Jo<P>

Ok you guys, I did it!<P>Last nite went to Walmart with H. Guess who showed up?! My H, trying to avoid her H (we never saw him, only her and the kids) said, "let's go out the back!" I said "no, let's act normal!" but let him lead me all the way behind the store to the sports aisle and guess who shows up with her kids?!<P>I smiled and waved (I've been doing that all along) and we just left the store after that. My H was shook up--he says mostly because he was afraid of a confrontation with her H--but I felt he was shook up from seeing her unexpectedly while I was there, too. He was withdrawn and strange the rest of the evening but as hurt as I was at his reaction (I remembered my lesson, Lori!) I said out of the blue, "Isn't it nice she's spending time with her kids again--that is so good to see." Which is basically true, she's been neglecting them to the point of losing custody if/when she and her H divorce--he's threatened as much. <P>We didn't create intimacy from all of this until just a little while ago--I was so bothered by his reactions that I finally got out of bed at 3a.m. and started doing quiet chores. My H got up at 6 and was concerned. I was afraid of LBing but let him know why I couldn't sleep--I'd had enough reflection time to be calm and understanding and supportive about the way he reacted, saying it was "natural to have strange feelings " when he denied having any strange feelings. (When my initial reaction would have been "Get a grip or else I'm out the door!) And darned if he didn't respond lovingly, held me and told me he loved me and that I needed to tell him these things sooner so we could talk (well, if it had been any sooner, I would have been screaming, not talking).<P>How'd I do? <P>So glad you guys had me prepped. I know I really would have LB'd big time if not for my daily lesson yesterday! Thanks a million!<P>And Happy 4th of July! <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited July 04, 2000).]

DeWayne-<P>Thanks for pointing out that "subtle" difference! (I'm smiling...)<P>I do believe however that Mia and my stbx will be quite happy with each other. They did survive the year long separation while me and the stbx failed miserably at a reconcilliation. And yes, I admit that I didn't do a great Plan A or B or anything. I'm guilty of that. The only thing I excelled at was making him even more miserable than before the affair. DeWayne is right on about Plan A - that has to be going on right from the beginning of any relationship so a potential affair never gets underway. <P>See, I have learned something from this site. I shall use my new wisdom in my next relationship!

Good girl! <P>See what a difference it makes? It's amazing, isn't it? You'll be pleasantly surprised once you discover just what a big impression that little "event" made....and how much easier it will be for you guys to draw closer as you keep reacting that way instead of the natural LB response. Soon, it'll become second nature!<P>Ahhhh, the perpetual "PT" question....want a little chuckle? Check this out - it's long but read ALL the reponses...gets better as it goes along. Also will give you an idea as to how we handled those inevitable "bad days"!<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009208.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009208.html</A> <P>Hope you enjoy it! I sure did!! <P>Keep up the good work.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited July 05, 2000).]