OK, you all know H came back home.<P>OW left the state.<P>Things have been terrific between us. The kids are even coming around a tiny bit. <P>Now for the bizzare!<P>The other day H tells me he put OW's dog in a kennel. Apparently *they* had bought the dog together 4 years ago but she didn't want to take the dog with her when she left. H says she isn't a pet person and although she did tend to his needs she never had much to do with him. He was really attached to H, and didn't care much for OW.<P>OW calls H (and he told me as soon as he got home that night she had called him) and tells him she signed a lease on a condo and they do not permitt pets. She doesn't much care what he does with the dog. She doesn't want him. She will be coming back to put her house up for rent. She can't sell it as it has some major problems and it would never pass an inspection so she's going to rent it out, to cover the mortage, untill she can afford to make the repairs.<P>H tells me about the dog and how nice it is etc. First he asked me what I thought he should do with it. Then he asks me how I would feel if WE kept the dog. I took a deep breath and told him first thing we need to do is talk to our daughters and tell them about the dog. He talks to them both and they agree they don't want the poor thing to have to be put down or go to a new home where he knows no one. We are all animal lovers, especially dogs. <P>H asks me a bunches of time if it would *really* be ok with me. He wanted to make sure I wouldn't look at the dog and it would bring up bad feelings for me. I assured him that 1st the poor dog did nothing wrong, 2nd I know he must really love him as they bought him as a puppy four years ago, 3rd I am not going to be bitter and certainly am not going to make an animal suffer because of mistakes human made. <P>I want to move forward and forgivness and acceptance of the past is a good thing, right?<P>I tell him it's fine with me. He is my H and I love him and I know I'll love this dog since he loves it so much.<P>So last night we hop in the car and go pick up our newest member of our family. We have 3 dogs already so a fourth won't make that much differance.<P>We get him home and he did really well with the other 3 dogs. As long as he can manage to continue to do so he is here to stay! So far so good. He seems to really like me too! I find it funny and somewhat comforting that this dog, who didn't like the OW, thinks I am his mommy or something!<P>So today we need to run some errands. H decides he wants to swing by the (*scene of the crime*) OW's house to pick up a few things. <P>Yes, that is right he took ME to OW's house to pick up some more of his belongings!<P>I have to say it was an odd feeling to be there, especially with H. WE took things that belong to him and the dog's things. We went through the garrage and the entire house. Closets, drawers, etc. We filled up his car and but couldn't get it all so he will have to return to get the rest. <P>I was kinda stunned that he took me there. He kept asking me if I was OK and I told him I could take it. <P>As we were leaving he told me he wanted me to go there with him so I could see for myself that he was taking EVERYTHING he owned out of there. He didn't want me to think he was keeping anything there as a possible iron in the fire with her. He also said he wanted me there so I would know that his life with her was dead, that that house, her, and his life with her is over.<P>It made me feel good to know he is that committed to me and our marriage. I guess it was his way of showing me it is really over.<P>I know it was hard for him to do. I mean 13 years with OW a house filled with furniture and other items they bought together for a future together. He wanted me to see he is leaving it all behind. He did it to help me not to throw anything in my face. Infact I had offered several times to help him get his stuff, so he knew I was willing.<P>The only thing that bothered me was he said, as we were driving home, that he felt like he had robbed the dead. I told him he only took things that were his so he robbed nothing. He said he knew that but he felt like that. I wonder why he felt that way?<P>I guess I felt these things were pretty darn bizzare, and I wanted to share them with others to see if anything similar has happened to anyone else when their WS leaves the OP.<P><BR>FC<BR>

I tried to do a search to find out more of your story....did you just write 13 ye.A?????<P>When you found out did you plan A the whole time???????<P>Your H seems to have really grown..as have you...I hope I will have an opportunity to be that strong some day. I would think that whenever you are giving up something...even when you know it is the right thing to do you would have feelings... robbing from the dead is just a great analogy..he knows it is over..... He has stopped running I guess...<P>Wow!

Tootrusting<P>Yes, their affair lasted 13 years. <P>But I didn't find out about it until 3 years ago. <P>From D day I was in plan A (unofficial as I had not yet found this site) untill H came back one year later.<P>He stayed one year and then went back to OW. That is when I found MB.<P>I have been in an official plan A since last Aug.<P>I think being in plan A for 13 years would probably kill anyone, or at the very least drive them to drink!<P>My official plan A went on about 10 months.<P>Thanks for mentioning his comment about robbing from the dead possibly means he feels the relationship is in fact dead. I was hoping that is what he meant, but right now, due to my skeptical feelings at times, I'm checking to see if others think it could mean something else.<P>I know what you mean by WOW!<P>Sometimes I wonder if this has really been my life for the past 3 years or if I've been living in a bad made for TV movie!<P>Yes, we have both grown. I can tell you I never in my wildest dreams thought I was as strong as I now know I am!<P>FC<BR>(who is sitting at the computer with XOW's dog in her lap!)<BR>

All Right, FC!!!! <P>I thought I did good when PT had to give up the dog that WE gave her last year (AAUUGGHHH!!! The beginning of the affair!) and I found a home for her with the help of a MB friend! (We couldn't take another one right now - too much up in the air about moving!)<P>And when SIL and I visited Robert at lunch one day, he gave us DIRECTIONS to get INTO the house he had lived in with PT and asked us to get the rest of his stuff!! We didn't break in - just returned the trike and left like good little girls!<P>Yayyy for you!!!<P>Keep it up - you guys sound great!<P>(I think you're right up there with Jill - remember, Crazy or What took CUSTODY of OW's middle daughter to get her out of the crazy house and she stayed with them for months until her father was found and took her home. That STILL amazes me!)<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fingers Crossed:<BR><B>Things have been terrific between us. The kids are even coming around a tiny bit. </B><P>You should work on that. Hostile kids will make the whole scenario pretty wearing for your H.<P><B>OW calls H (and he told me as soon as he got home that night she had called him) and tells him </B><P>Whoa! Where is the no contact letter? <P><B>The only thing that bothered me was he said, as we were driving home, that he felt like he had robbed the dead. .</B><P>I wouldn't worry about that comment. Just a throwaway remark, and a natural one, given the circumstances. If she is "dead" to him, so much the better.<P>As far as the dog goes <shrug>. When you are in the dumps you can twist the little bugger's ears No, just kidding. The only down side I see if it becomes an excuse for the OW to call. "How is Pooper?" "I really miss Pooper." "I changed my mind, I want him back." "I found his medical file." Whatever. a tie to the past. <P>Other than that, which can, ahem, be avoided with a no contact letter, if the dog doesn't have any emotional baggage for you, no problem!<P>Congrats again on an amazing success story.<P>Mike<P> <P>

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

FC,<P>I think it is great that you took the dog. One of the things that I find hardest to fathom about my H's OW is that she has three kids and NO PETS. Not even a goldfish. Just doesn't seem normal. I don't know if I know anyone else who has kids who doesn't have a least one pet.<P>I disagree with Mike about pushing the No Contact letter. I don't think it is effective unless the H wants to do it. And if you make someone do something they don't want to, they will be resentful.

I'm with Nellie on the "no contact" thingy. It's best and GREAT if that's what they want to do...if not, Nellie's right, tons of resentment.<P>Robert had to work through the contact thing in his own way and I decided it was best FOR US that way. To force him to write that letter and not speak to her at all (they work together) would have been setting him up for failure or to hide things from me. Nope, for us, it worked out better this way. I think, although it's OPTIMAL, each situation has to be handled a little differently.<P>Keep up the good work.<P>Lori

lostva<P>Phew...... I'm glad I'm not the only one who went to the OW's house! <P>It sounds like you were in and out pretty quick, though. I had the opportunity to look around as we were taking H's things. Nothing really bothered me too much. Except a picture of MY H and OW together on her bedroom dresser. That stung a might.<P>It was an odd feeling yet somewhat theraputic. Now I know what the place he lived in for 2 years looks like and my curiosity is appeased. <P>I don't recall the story about the person (Jill) that took in OW's daughter, but knowing me I'd probably do the same thing!<P>Thanks for your well wishes and response!<P><BR>FC<P>MikeC2<P>I really don't think *I* need to work on the kids attitudes with their Dad. He needs to do that.<P>I think mom getting in the middle is a mistake many women make in their relationships with their H's and kids. Mom turns into the translator, go between, and link between dad and kids. It's like a triangle with Mom at the top and the only way their is communication between kids and dad is through mom. Not a healthy situation for anyone, not to mention the kids and their dad will NEVER have a relationship if mom serves as the main link between them all. <P>I'm not saying I don't help make H feel better about his efforts and ask the kids to think before they speak. But I won't stick up for his actions to the kids and I won't tell H the kids are terrible for their distrust and anger. They have to work that out between themselves.<P>And the kids aren't hostile towards H all the time. In fact the youngest told her dad yesterday she had a great weekend because not only did she get her dad back but she also got a new dog. <P>As to the no contact letter....<P>Seeing as we don't have an address for her right now it wouldn't do any good to pursue one. I do plan on talking to him about writting one. I want it sent certified mail (with acknowledgement of reciept) so I know she gets it. <P>There are still some legal things with the business that need to be settled. So there will still be at least one meeting with her necessary. After that we will talk about the no contact letter. <P>I can tell you he is trying SO HARD to make up to me everything that he has done. In fact last night he wanted to make sure I had a wonderful holiday (and I did) and he told me it is his goal in life to make all my days, holiday or not, wonderful. <P>The dog is now ours, papers, medical records and all. I doubt she'd want it but if she does and she starts calling and bugging him we'll give her the dog and replace it with a new puppy of the same breed. A new puppy always makes things better. <P>Thanks for you concern and advice.<P>I too think a no contact letter is a good thing, but it's only as effective as the persons desire to not have contact with the OP. If my H is going to continue to talk to her or she is bound and determined to contact him a piece of papper isn't going to stop them. <P>I can't say I know for sure that all contact will cease and desist. What I do know for sure is I will not tolerate it. <P>FC<P>Hanora<P>Thanks so much for your kind words. <P>FC<P>Nellie<P>I hear ya about the no pet thing. Apparently XOW never had pets for her kids either as they were growing up. I think that speaks volumes about a parent (alergies and the like excused).<P>As far as the no contact letter. I really don't know if H will agree to it or not. It won't be an issue until she comes back to get the rest of her stuff and we can send it to her at her home here or we get her new address. <P>I agree about not pushing it and the resentment that can surface if one is forced to do something. I'm not forcing anything. H does know that if I ever find out he and she are communicating (without my knowledge), and he knows I ALWAYS find out, he will be spending the rest of his life without moi.<P>It was good to hear from you Nellie. How are you doing?<P>FC<P>lostva<P>I agree with Nellie too, Lori. And of course you as well.<P>FC<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fingers Crossed:<BR><B>I too think a no contact letter is a good thing, but it's only as effective as the persons desire to not have contact with the OP. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not really. If that was true, the Harley's would not be as adamant about it. <P>There are two parties here that need to have no contact for the rest of their lives. Contact may be initiated down the road be either one. A formal request to not do so may well stop the OW from contacting your H in a moment of weakness down the road. And those moments are sure to come. Your H's enthusiasm may be half-hearted, but the letter will not reflect that, so she will not know it.<P>Each contact, whether it be phone, email, letter, or in person, places a temptation in his path and potentially sets back his recovery with you.<P>There areepole here couseling you against this, or saying that they let theor spouses maintain contact and things worked out, but you should realize that this is msot definitely NOT in accordance with the Harley's philosophy. Here is an excerpt from the Plan A/Plan B article:<BR> <BR>==================<BR>My experience helping couples recover from infidelity has taught me that any contact between the unfaithful spouse and the lover ruins reconciliation. Even casual contact prevents completion of withdrawal from the addiction of an affair. Since an affair is usually an addiction, the only way to fully recover is to permanently separate the unfaithful spouse (the addict) from the lover (the source of the addiction). But even in the very few cases when an affair is not an addiction, total separation of the spouse and lover is a necessary act of consideration for the feelings of the betrayed spouse. It's the very least a wayward spouse can do to compensate for the suffering caused by the affair. Continued contact with a lover simply perpetuates the suffering of the betrayed spouse indefinitely. <P>It's been my experience that without total separation, mutual love cannot be restored, resentment cannot be overcome and protection from the threat of another affair cannot be guaranteed. So when I counsel couples who want to reconcile after an affair, I insist on total separation of the unfaithful spouse and the lover with extraordinary precautions to guarantee that they never see or talk to each other again. <BR>===========================<P>And I can't see why a MEETING is necessary to do anything with the business. Do a phone conference or have your attorney handle it or anything to avoid contact.<P>It sounds like your H is in a place right now where he is eager to please you. My advice is to take advantage of it to try and safeguard a repeat of the past. <P>Good luck! <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited July 05, 2000).]

FC, I am still amazed. And your story really brings home the fact that it ain't over until the Rubenesque woman sings (being "Rubenesque" myself, there is something that bugs me about the "fat lady" comment).<P>Mike C2, some of your responses trouble me. And when stuff troubles me, I have learned that I need to express it. I looked at your profile in hopes that I could find your story there, and then, when I couldn't find it, I did a search on all your posts until I found your initial "my story" topic. I think the things that trouble me are 1) your <B>insistence</B> on following Harley's plans regarding infidelity to the <I>letter</I>; and 2) your complete lack of personal experience with infidelity and wayward spouses (not that I would wish that experience on anyone for millions of dollars!).<P>All of us who have been here more than a month or two have generally read countless books on relationships and infidelity. While Harley's methods are very definitely extremely effective, they do NOT work 100% of the time. My personal belief is that there ARE other methods out there that are also extremely effective - those described in <I>Divorce Busting</I> by Michele Weiner-Davis have got many followers, as do the methods of Dr. Dobson. There are tons of relationship experts out there, and MANY of them have real, valid methods which WORK a lot of the time - but NOBODY can boast 100% effectiveness. The bottom line is that marriage involves give and take, that it IS work to maintain a relationship, and that you will always have periods of time when you are not wildly "in love" with your spouse. When a betrayed spouse finds a series of behavior changes and patterns which work, and is willing to work at changing to become a better person, and is willing to understand that becoming ego-centric will NOT save either their marriage or their self-esteem, then as long as the methods are working, we must respect that it is the right thing for them.<P>I mean no disrespect, Mike, but: Unless you have been through the experience of infidelity, you cannot even imagine what we are going through. The pain has been described by many counselors and relationship experts as worse than losing a loved one in death. When we who HAVE suffered that pain have the opportunity to mend our marriages, we find we are generally the ones who must do most of the work. And we HAVE to do it in the manner that makes the most sense to us and which works the best for us. We have to look at the long term and choose what to do and not to do with an eye on "forever." If that means we do not insist that our spouses immediately write a "no contact" letter to the OP to avoid the resentment that such a demand might make, then that is what must be.<P>The bottom line is, regardless of the success of one method or another, we are all in charge of our own lives and must do with them what we see fit to do. For example, I have been in a modified Plan A with my husband for 21 months now. He will undoubtedly eventually leave the slug he is with. I am not exactly "waiting around" for him to do so, but I cannot see any wisdom in Plan B for us at this time. I have adjusted my behavior to make things work for me - I do not call him "just to say hello" and strive not to call him for any reason if I can avoid it. However, I have not told him not to call me. And his most recent behavior (calling me once or twice a week) has shown me that "it ain't over." If I had gone to a strict Plan B before this with this stubborn man, he simply would have cut his nose off to spite his face - and never contacted me even if he was DYING to do so. Now, he has settled into a pattern of calling me at least once a week for various silly reasons, all valid on the surface, but weak when you look at them closely. It might be very well true that Plan B is the way to go in the near future, but it never would have worked in the "standard" Harley timeframe - partly because I had some growing and learning to do in order for me to be capable of it.<P>I guess what I am trying to say is this: Each of us knows our spouses and our situations best. Michele Weiner-Davis reminds us of this regularly. There is no "method" that can work in absence of this knowledge. And each of us must make the judgments we make based on this knowledge. I think when we learn to see the facts beyond the emotions and we make decisions based on what is best for all and not just on what is best for him or for me, then we have begun to assemble the tools we need for a successful relationship.<P>Hopefully, for all of us, it will be a successful relationship with the people to whom we are married. If it is not to be, at least we know that we gave it our best, we gave it selflessly with the relationship as our priority and we worked as hard as we could.<P>whew! OK, I'll get down off my soapbox now and stop writing this book!<P>FC - you GO girl! Write me if you still have my email address! <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

One more point: I think that Harley's timeframes and methods work best with relatively short-term affairs - ones which have not already been ongoing for more than a year or two. For those of us dealing with longer term affairs, things are different. As someone on another forum once pointed out to me, after a couple of years, it's no longer just an affair, it's a "relationship" and there are loads more emotional connections we must deal with.<P>My husband's "relationship" has been going on for four years plus at this point. FC's husband had been seeing the XOW for <B>thirteen</B> years. It is very different from the affair that has been going on for 6 months or even a year, IMNSHO.<P> There IS hope for all of us!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by terri:<BR><B>Mike C2, some of your responses trouble me. And when stuff troubles me, I have learned that I need to express it. I looked at your profile in hopes that I could find your story there, and then, when I couldn't find it, I did a search on all your posts until I found your initial "my story" topic. I think the things that trouble me are 1) your insistence</B> on following Harley's plans regarding infidelity to the <I>letter</I>; and 2) your complete lack of personal experience with infidelity and wayward spouses <P>Well, I hate to see people troubled I guess that is why I post here.<P>I suppose that if I were offering my personal advice -- rather merely than reiterating that of the Harleys -- my personal history would be relevant. Not, by the way, that it hasn't been plenty painful, lack of infidelity aside.<P>If I were listening to personal advice, as in that expressed outside the Marriage Builders guidelines, I would also look to see if the people were those who had seen success with their own methodology. You seem to be saying that non-MB methods offered by someone that has not reconciled their marriage is preferable to someone in a recovering marriage that has not suffered infidelity offering advice that is based on MB principles. <P>With FC, you have someone that has seen her H seesaw back and forth with this OW for over a decade. To me it is plain that she needs to take extraordinary measures to ensure that this is the last seesaw ride. I believe that the Harleys would agree with this 100% from their writings. <P>Sorry if I troubled you <P><BR>

FC<BR>You're doing great! <BR>You know I'm thinking of you.<BR>Things are coming along with the kids?<P>terri<BR>Thank you! I have had the darndest time trying to figure out how to describe my H's 7 year stint with the Bimbo and you just did it perfectly. <BR>It is more than an affair. That word doesn't even touch it really.<BR>My H hates the word "relationship". He just cringes when I use it in reference to the Bimbo. Possibly because it holds so much more weight than "affair"?

Mike - you wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I were listening to personal advice, as in that expressed outside the Marriage Builders guidelines, I would also look to see if the people were those who had seen success with their own methodology. You seem to be saying that non-MB methods offered by someone that has not reconciled their marriage is preferable to someone in a recovering marriage that has not suffered infidelity offering advice that is based on MB principles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, I said no such thing at all. Please re-read. I pointed out that there are MANY paths to success. I cited other sources of information. I did NOT offer personal advice at all. I believe that all of our "stories" have relevance to what we post here - your story, my story, FC's story - all of them.<P>As for myself, I HAVE used Harley's methods and seen some results - however, the methods have NOT been successful in getting my spouse back.<P>Have you read any of the other material from other marriage and relationship counselors who have high success rates? The Weiner-Davis material is excellent - and boasts a very high success rate also.<P>FC is doing well not to love-bust by creating resentment. I agree with you that there is likely at least one other way to resolve the business issues without personal contact, and that can be suggested without love-busting. And I certainly agree that ensuring no personal contact is important. But what I see is that FC's husband is working as hard as he can to reassure her that his intentions are real and honorable.<P>I am still a little troubled and hope that it is only me misinterpreting your intent: Does the fact that my husband is still with slug make my advice about infidelity seem invalid to you? I believe you would find that many others with whom I have corresponded regularly via this forum and email would disagree with that. Every one of us that is here can offer advice to others - and the fact that it may be drawn from life experience as well as familiarity with many different approaches toward saving marriages truly validates it in my eyes.<P>Thank you for your response.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...