16 months separated and no divorce in sight as yet (financial battles)<P>H refuses to contact me in any way. This I have come to accept...that is the way it is and always will be. I have gone to his office(now banned from there I know not why as I was not threatening but went in to address the issue as a "concerned parent", I have called him about the kids when there has been a live issue,but he states it is not his problem and the kids are fine and make their own decisions (as if a 14 and 16 y o can always have it their way)<P>What irks me (always has but I no longer get fired up about it) is that H "uses" my d (mainly, but uses the older kids as well) to get info about other kids behaviour issues etc in my home. D cannot say no to dad and dad does not "get it" that she is not the mother of one of her siblings and is not H's wife. I CANNOT tell d anything as H a)does not get the picture...2nd hand from a 14 y o about a sibling<BR>b)runs straight to his lawyer and accuses me of things that are not true.....I have depersonalized this and no longer get upset, but........<P>How do I get my kids to understand that whatever happens when they are with dad is between them and their dad (I never ask and wait for them to tell me anything if they choose to) and what happens with myself and them is not any of their dad's business really.<P>I have told them that I hope that they can have a good but seperate relationship with each of us, and that the one relationship does not influence the other! This has been so hard for them , as their father is IMO infantile....if they "play" with him, then they cannot play with me and he feeds off this and manipulates them.<P>This is why it has been a nightmare...H has used my relationship with the kids (parental, sometimes saying NO,) against me as he then offers them fantasy options which are very attractive, but are harmful in the long run with these 4 teens never having to take any responsibility for their actions....just like dad!!!

Willbok99,<P>Oh my, you have a crappy situation. I can't believe some people these days. I don't have a clue, but I feel for you. You seem to be so knowledgable about your kids and situation, but can't control your own destiny.<P>Obvious question follows: what does your lawyer say about your options? Is there any time limit? <P>Bad suggestions follow: can you delay future visitation until the financial battles are finished? Or how about declaring bankruptcy, and having the creditors attack?<P>I know, I know, i'm not helpful in the least.<BR>I wish I could help so many well intentioned people here with answers, but it is only a wish.<P>hang in there, and keep exploring options.<P>thl<P>

Willbok-<P>How do you explain this to a teenager? I'm not really sure. Their going to hear what they want to hear. Whatever you do, though, don't stop trying to explain it to them. My H's parents divorced when he was a teenager and it was a bad divorce. His mom offered a "Fantasy" life as well. No school and party all night. Dad was the ogre with all of his rules and expectations. Needless to say, mom won and the kids slowly made their way to her. My H regrets it to this day. He and his brother did graduate from high school but not on time. His sister has yet to get her GED (she's in her mid 20's)and is a serious drug addict. <P>I feel awful for you that your H is acting so childish. Shortly after DDay I told my H we had to get along for our D's sake. We had to be united in raising her whether we were together or apart. He was in total agreement. We have kept that end of the bargain since the beginning. Our D is not dragged into the middle of this and we do not play her against one another (sounds like your H is).<P>I don't know what else to say. I pray for the best for you and your kids. I pray your H will see the light and realize the harm he causing his kids.<P>Best of luck to you and stay strong!<P><P>------------------<BR>Molli<P>Find your strength within!

WIFTT:<BR>Again thank you...advice always great,but bankruptcy NOT an option. I AM THE CREDITOR...but since I am married to the jerk, the divorce courts here are messing with commercial claims as well as everything else!!!!! Both very well off,but H claims what is his and mine!!!!!I just want what is mine and let him go off to the distance AFTER he pays a fair share for ALL our 4 kids. (I have supported them mostly through this but refuse to be the "family banker" where I pay my lawyer more than I get back LOL!!!!) ....H states to all how rich he is(!!!! certainly rich enough to be attractive to bimbo and thinks he needs it all to pay for her baubles and trips!!!!) but will not pay for education for kids!!!<BR>Valuator now going through his books!!!<BR>I will not deny visitation...my lawyer threatened him with this as he was using an older son in a terrible way so that son and I are estranged....(to be sorted out with son and me in the future I hope), but the kids need to see their dad...so since it benefits them, I will not stop this (even if I could).<BR>I have tried so hard to act in the best interests of my children through all this.....<BR>Most high fliers like H support their family totally and then play games and control but because of our unique situation, H cannot control me financially,never has and only needed to once bimbo was on scene and then could not understand why after 21 years of marriage I did not love him for how much he made...lol<P>Hope your situation is more peaceful if not easy...........<P>Molli:<BR>Thank you,<BR>deep down my kids know that I am there for them 100% and their father has let them down in so many ways since seperation....(One out of 4 is estranged from me as he bought into his father's fantasy iin many ways....but he will one day grow up, H will not......)<BR>I think H lost it totally as a human being...all he has is his business and bimbo and he has lost all sense of values as a parent...financially, parentally and emotionally in understanding that the kids have needs as well, but since he NEVER put these in perspective and his wants and needs were always catered to and came first,how should he now know how to interact in a parental and adult way....my fault too as I enabled,but this man was/is the King of manipulation.....but now he is with a woman who is only interested in him for what he can provide...trips, baubles etc and he is too brain dead to understand that his kids need him as a dad...but then he never has been much of a father figure in that sense.....<P>oh what a mess.....which I knew it would be.<P>The losers are the children in our case BIG TIME and my heart bleeds for them and the way this families life has unfolded.<P>But we are all healthy .......

Willbok99,<P>That's why I said BAD suggestions follow!! <P>Well thought out answer follows: <P>I think the real answer is to discuss with your kids the implications of what your EH is doing. That is important and is what I am doing with my kids as we chat.<P>History: s is 11, d is 8 (going on 13) <P>My tact is to explain everything to them, including the differences between my STBX and me. The differences in the styles of communications, and get them to see both sides. Then they can learn which is better.<P>I explain lack of communication, I explain over communication, I explain impatience, I demostrate patience, I explain hard work and where money comes from, etc. I explain how some of my W's bad habits they have picked up causes others to feel diminished, I actively halt bad habits as soon as possible, and at times, when either are not exhausted, they can learn, although 11 yo s still eats with his hands, (like his mother). That one needs constant attention! The list is huge, but I know education is the only answer, and maybe meeting with the counselors themselves in your kids absence, you will find ways to relate these topics to the kids.<P>Forgetabout the H as you are doing, just keep working over the kdis, and eventually, it will work.<P>I think although you will have to do what I do twice as many times, that is your best alternative. But just don't explain why it is your opinion of why it is wrong, try to explain the consequences. As I said in an earlier post to either you or sue, the kids will have the inclination to quit a relationship about mid 40's (guessing) if it gets hard, because that is what they are seeing and experiencing. Ask them about their quitting any current relationships because, BF or GF just because another B or G looks a little more attractive? Try and relate it to their social lives, and see if they grasp the concept that way.<P>Is there anyway you can get them to think about how they will act at this point in their life? and get them to see from maybe role playing, that the consequences are not disneyland?<P>I guess the more social education you can give or find, the better off they will be. I know my kids right now are OK, and are understanding, but we will see as this weekend and next week will be the first official separation week.<P>good luck, but after pondering with some creative time, that is how I am approaching it.<P>thl<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited July 05, 2000).]

wiftt:<BR>again thx.....<BR>being older and having patterened their behaviour from what they learned IN THE PAST...with faults of both EH and myself...this adolescent thing etc... is so hard.<P>But today son 16 left camp early (quit...long story...but he was to come home Sat when I was to drive to pick him up) He could not get hold of me at first when he calledhome to drive up 1 1/2 hours each way this afternoon....so called dad. Dad evidently told him that he was in a meeting and would under no circumstances come..he is the boss of business!!!!<P>As I walked in the door I got the frantic call and left in 10 minutes....and cancelled my plans for the rest of the day....was going to play tennis and out for dinner after with friends...cancelled all and drove and collected son. I told son that it was my choice to pick him up and I would not discuss his father's choices with him,but did call the therapist and son has apointment tomorrow!)<BR>Son then said "I know you do it all" and I said "yes, and I want you to know and appreciate that, but this was an inuendo that someone else was not doing" (ie dad bashing) but to show appreciation towards me at times like this for what I do indeed do. I think he understood and this will help in future relationships <P>I do talk to kids therapists....and they are VERY helpful. I do explain,but our deedsoften do not mirror this ...eg patience and mine is getting thin....<BR>I am tired of explaining behaviour (not justifying) and consequences over so many issues.....but I do not give up...which my kids know so are able to learn very,very slowly<BR>All 4 deep down know how badly their father has behaved,not only to the "marriage",b ut also to them since seperation...and this is a topic I will not go to...when it comes up I tell them to discuss it with their therapists as I will say too much (as I did last year this time)!!!! One 19 yo and 16 yo treat sSO well so I have hopes for them...the other 19 year old is "gone" in terms of this...he just does not get it and 14 yo d is getting there. All say they will not cheat...and 2 have learnt some of these concepts in their adolescent relationships with girlfriends.<P>I want to know when I can "go and play"lol!!!<P>Hope that your kids are having an non eventful and peaceful summer <p>[This message has been edited by willbok99 (edited July 05, 2000).]

Willbok,<P>Just don't give up when the going gets rough.<P>We will see, as I officially move out this friday into my own apartment. Yikes, I have to cook for myself! and its a gas stove, I hope I don't blow up!<P>I have been working overtime on the kids, making sure that they understand that this is not the end of the world, that I will still coach and watch their soccer, help them with homework, etc whenever it is my turn.<P>Its the stupid STBX that wants to control the world, in other words, I am the enemy, yet needless to say, she says Dads are important, but I will fight you for all the time.<P>Then she tells me that IF I don't go anywhere on my two weeks of summer vacation with them, she won't let me have them. Christ, they are growing like weeds, but I am not Roundup!<P>And then comes the stupid finance games about child support. Aaarghhh. I can't leave my job until the company is bought and I am paid off (of which she gets half), and that's OK.<BR>But here is someone who wants as much child support as possible, but has a 3,500 sq foot house for free heat and light included, and has never once asked me how our money was invested, traded, (I position trade options) or how much we have, or what accounts she has. In fact she was too scared to call the mutual fund company to request a transfer I wanted her to do.<P>Why are these stupid people actually allowed to marry anyway? Potential spouses should have to pass a genetic suitability test to join the availability pool for marriage.<P>You sound intelligent, love your kids, want them to grow up responsible, need a date for anything?<P>thl

WIFTT:<BR>I will not run when the going gets tough (have not in the 16 months.....) That is the problem with H....he did...so I do not think it is genetics in his case, but MLC and running away to make a "nicer" place for himself!!!!<P>Advice to you ...I know it is not asked for but here goes anyway----<BR>1)Do not only step in to coach, homework etc"only when your turn...phone each day (if possible) you do not see kids and ask to help...to take kids to appointments...here you will get to spend "quality time" if not quantity and it is also a good way to stay involved in their day to day lives, not only on official visitation times> Do not know how this works in terms of your available time, but....I know this is important to the kids as well.....daily grind stuff that you should have as well ....to maintain a full relationship with the children.<P>When "explaining" negative" habits etc to kids, DO NOT relate it to stbx attributes, but rather as these are the values, habits you want the kids to have....this is about you and your relationship with the kids, not the boundaries etc stbx fails to address.<P>Stbx cannot control what you do with the kids during your summer vacation...whether you take them away or not. Are they to be with you? Be careful...she may have some hidden agenda....if you take them away make sure it is alll documented, she knows and lawyers say ok and give her the phone numbers.<P>What transpired with stbx for me was mind-blowing in how he has behaved SINCE separation...I would never have believed some of the stunts he has pulled, so be prepsred for everything.<BR>The 2 issues which get messy are...<BR>1)finance<BR>2)children<BR>and this is, as the non-custodial parent you need to be prepared<BR>So good luck in your new place...do you have enough accomodation for the children? How much time will they spend with you?<P>Goodluck with the cooking...if you need advice...just ask here.<P>My stbx has been in his condo (2 bedrooms and 5 children for him and her!!) for 16 months...evidently he now loves to cook, cleans everything, does the laundry etc as bimbo does nothing in this department !!!!ROFLOL and this is a man who refused to lift a finger while we aere married to do any chores...insisted we had numerous help...which I always vetoed!!!!!<P>Let me know how it all goes....

Thanks,<P>I will try to do my best, as always, and yes, I do NOT frame the respect boundaries in terms of STBX lack of behaviour.<P>Cooking, just give me a few weeks, I can learn anything I want/need to. I am far from helpless and stupid.<P>I think your points about kids is great. actually, you have given me the best advice of anyone here for the stupid situation I am in.<P>thanks alot and take care.<P>thl<BR>