I think my wife is at the "what if" stage of all this. She is confused at what she is reading and hates that everyone calls what she has for him a "fog" and a "fantasy", she knows in her heart it is real.<P>Her "what ifs":<P>1. What if I go back to my H and he grows comfortable and treats me the way he did before.<P>(that would never happen, simply because I've learned what it was that caused this. and for me to set up an environment that would allow for it again would be impossible.<P>The pain of this is like cutting off my left leg with a circular saw. To ever slip back into it would be like walking in the garage and intentionaly cutting off the right leg as well.}<P>2. What if my one true chance of happiness with OM is passed up? She doesn't think she would ever forgive herself. Truely she doesn't believe that I could ever satisfy her the way he does.<P>So now I have to wait. I feel as if I discovered the affair told her I did not want a D and I want her to think about what she is doing. I feel as if she thinks she can stay married now and continue with the affair. <P>How long do "what ifs" last?

Homer....<BR>Probably no easy answer to that question.<P>Let me share this with you...<P>Her "fog" or "fantasy" is anything but that. It is a very, very real sense of something so wonderful...that to deny that this place exist...only will anger and drive a wedge further between you. She will have to see for herself...that although the feelings are very genuine...that to act on these will eventually cause more pain and heartache than it was worth.<P>Someone shared with me here a while back something I thought was noteworthy. You can cross a line...where you are 'doomed' to live with a certain degree of "regret" for the rest of your life. If you stay with your spouse, you will always have a tinge of regret..wondering 'what if' I gave that relationship a try. On the other hand, if you do pursue the 'dream relationship', you will always have the regret of the carnage you left behind.<P>Keep in mind, that while you doubt that you can ever feel for your wife what you once did because of her betrayal, she too is doubting that she will ever feel the intensity of love and romance with you...that she obviously has found with this other man. I believe the premise of MB here is to say that you are both wrong...and that if you apply these principals...with the help of God...that both of you can be proven wrong.<P>I myself, am a long way of discovering this...but it is the one thread of hope that is keeping me from going over the edge.<P>And that is my two cents worth.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NoMas:<BR>Someone shared with me here a while back something I thought was noteworthy. You can cross a line...where you are 'doomed' to live with a certain degree of "regret" for the rest of your life. If you stay with your spouse, you will always have a tinge of regret..wondering 'what if' I gave that relationship a try. On the other hand, if you do pursue the 'dream relationship', you will always have the regret of the carnage you left behind.<P><BR>That is exactly the way i see it. I hope it doesn't take her long to realize this. I understand her feelings, I think, I'm actually very envious of her feelings, wish I could share it with somebody. I know if she were to come back it wuold take a while for anything close to that to develope. I ask myself everyday if she is worth the wait. She is clearly not ready to give him up yet. <P>Did your W plan A you?<BR>why did you come back?<P>not to discourage you I would lvoe to help her with understanding (unfortunately comming from me it is a LB). I know it has to be her decision.

Hi Homer....<P>No...my wife did not 'plan A' me. And I never physically 'left'. I have been trying to 'find my way home' though, for some time. My wife really scoffs at the notion that this is like Harley describes, as an addiction. She says it was all about 'choice'. Well...I can't argue with her on that....nor can I get her to understand my dilema. I had a counselor tell me one time that when emotion and 'reason' meet head on...emotion will usually win out, unless there is a plan.<P>Believe me, I KNOW....that where I have allowed my heart and soul to drift to this past 9 months is so wrong. I would never intentionally do anything to harm my wife and kids....or anyone for that matter. But this emotional pull on my heart is the most powerful thing I ever ever encountered in my life. <P>I literraly feel like I am dying inside, to turn this ship around and steer my heart back to my wife. I know this is not what you really want to hear Homer...as much as you are hurting. But I am telling you, regardless of the reasons that led to your wife getting involved with this man, this 'pull' on her heart is very real, and very strong. <P>Sometimes, I have looked at this as a 'hostage' situation. You just can't go in and manhandle your way in to this scene, blast the culprits with 'truth and logic', and expect to come out the winner. It requires a whole new set of game plans and strategy....if you are to win her heart back. <P>This may sound odd coming from someone who allowed his own heart to fall deeply in love with another woman. But I am telling you, from the middle of this place....it is a force to be reckoned with. My situation has been predominantly an emotional affair, which, really, to my wife, is more hurtful and painful than had I just "had sex" with some stranger. <P>I am seeking out counsel for myself right now. I would really like to refer you to a post that was on here some time ago, that was very, very helpful and I think you would benefit from reading it.<BR>Go read this...and if it helps you, do a search on this person's name 'brokenbutnotcrushed' and read some of his other post. I think you will find this interesting. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/001445.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/001445.html</A> <P>One last thought...unless of course, you have any further questions for someone like me who is still in the depths of trying to turn this hurting heart around.<BR>I suspect you are right, that your wife will need to see some of this on her own. I wonder if we have to get to a place where the pain of our consequences, is more intense than the pain of seperation from the one we are convinced we are in love with. If this is the case, I dread what awaits me in the future.<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited July 04, 2000).]

Hi, Homer. I agree w/NoMas that it's not a fog or fantasy. At the time, I really thought I loved OM. There was some fantasy there thinking I could be happy w/him for the rest of my life and disregard my family. But the feelings were very real.<P>Her "what ifs" are genuine. I had those same what ifs. Once in awhile I still worry that my H and I will slip back into our no communication period. It also does worry occassionally that he will fall again and betray me again. I also worry about your #1 question sometimes. ("1. What if I go back to my H and he grows comfortable and treats me the way he did before.") That does happen, occassionally, but hopefully it won't to us. He knows how crucial it is that I get the attention, concern, love, etc. from him that I need. That takes constant work. <P>The #2 question: ("2. What if my one true chance of happiness with OM is passed up? She doesn't think she would ever forgive herself. Truely she doesn't believe that I could ever satisfy her the way he does.")<P>This is the question that truly takes time and analyzing. I asked myself this many times, but in the end, I chose my H. She has to think very long and very hard about that one. You could satisfy her the way he does, but it'll take a lot of work and patience on your part and a lot of compromise and time on her part. She needs to decide if she's willing to risk losing you FOREVER, is OM worth it? That's something only she can decide.<P>Don't let her have her cake and eat it, too. I wanted to do that, and it's not fair to any of us. I would still love to just be friends w/OM, but it's just not possible. He can't be in my life, period. And the OM can't be in your wife's life, period, if she wants to stay married to you. She has to choose you or him. I know it sounds harsh and simplified, but it's the only solution. I've been down this road, I know what she's going through.<P>I don't know how long the "what ifs" last. If she decides to quickly to stay w/you, she may think that she's "settled". But, if she drags it out too long, then that's more pain for you. And if she does choose him, that's even worse for you. My H wanted me to decide so that he could get on w/his life. He didn't want to waste his time if I wasn't going to stay.<P>Hope things get better, hang in there! My prayers are w/you and your Wife. <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by momma (edited July 05, 2000).]

Hey Homer -<P>Here's another WS response to your question. I have to agree with everything Momma said.<P>I asked myself those same questions. I think what changed things for me is that I began to see that the OM was human, too. He had his faults like everyone else. Then I looked at my husband and at his faults. <P>The biggest turn around for me came when I realized that my H was the love of my life. And he loved me - even after all the things I put him through. How would this OM be in a similar situation? Trust - believe it or not - was a big issue for me. If this guy was willing to cheat with a married woman, what if it got to the point where I married him? He wasn't exactly a poster boy for integrity.<BR>I began to take note of all his shortcomings, instead of just focusing on the "good feelings" I had about the relationship.<P>Eventually, my head took over from where my heart ran amuck. I never really thought that I loved the OM. I never really stopped loving my husband. But the OM was fulfulling my need for attention or whatever that my H wasn't at the time.<P>I wrote in a few posts that during the past few days, it's like someone turned on a light switch. I began focusing on my H instead of on the OM. It's really hard to let go, and everyone goes through this at a different pace. There are no gaurantees of a "happy ending" regardless of what path you choose.<P>But for me, I finally came to the realization that I loved my husband far more than the thought of being with the OM. <P>Before I told my H about the A, he actually - jokingly - said that I could have him and another M - just as long as he didn't lose me. In my mind, I think that's why I went through the PA - he said it wouldn't hurt him so why not? <P>Immediately after the PA, I asked my husband why be married at all? Why should I be able to have my cake and eat it too? That is not what marriage is supposed to be about. <P>It was really weird for a while. But then, he made one simple statement that made the difference - at least to me - he said "I don't want to share you with anyone." For someone with low self-esteem, it was really great to hear that my husband didn't want to share me. The next day, I sent the no contact letter, and my H and I are working through this together.<P>There are ups and downs in every relationship, the only thing you can gaurantee you wife is that you'll try to make things better. Before the A, my husband never knew anything was wrong - neither did I - hopefully this will be our last wake up call. <P>It's like trying to wake up in the morning - you can keep hitting the snooze button as many times as you want, but eventually, you have to wake up and smell the coffee. your wife will have to make some decisions. For me, I would rather make those decisions with my H than by myself.

Wow, SKM! Great post! I agree w/you totally! I just thought I'd tell you how impressed I was with your comments! It really hits home!

I can't get enough of the WS encuoragement. I don't know how she truely fels but I hope she realizes what a great thing this can be one day.

Hey Homer,<BR>Did you get a chance to read that post from brokenbutnotcrushed I pointed out to you? What did you think about it?<BR>

Yes I read it, I hope it doesn't last that long I most deffinately wont be able to last that long. He did not know till after it was over. I know in the middle or the begining. 4 months into it.<P>The ending is still encourageing

Momma -<P>Thanks. I have read a lot of your posts, and, unfortunately or fortunately for me, we have a lot of things in common. I saw your post about July 4th and having to take your kids alone. I wanted to reply, but I didn't want to hog the boards. Plus, I was only going to join in on your "whining." <P>It seems like you are a few steps ahead of me in the recovery process, so watch out, I'm following your lead. Somehow it's nice to know that other people are going through the same things I am, and are willing to talk about it.

I just want to repeat something I've said literally dozens of times over the last 2 years I've known about MarriageBuilders. I won't go into detail, because it doesn't matter. The reason it doesn't matter is because this experience can't be learned from others, it has to be <I>lived</I> in all it's gruesome details.<P>The affair absolutely, positively <B>IS</B> a fantasy, and those in it are in a fog. You can't trust NoMas' viewpoint on this at this point in time, because he is <B>IN</B> the fog! If someone had told me 2&1/2 years ago that my OW was not my "one true love"(blech!) or "soulmate,"(heave!) I would have been as incredulous in my denials as NoMas is at this point in time. When you're in it, you can't <B>possibly</B> see it! It's the nature of the beast, and quite a beast it is.<P>There's a fine line on the feelings we betrayers have for our other persons... they ARE real. That's the trap... the feelings are real, they are intense, and they run deep. There's nothing quite like infatuation on steroids to make a "comfortable" love like you've had for years with your spouse pale into insignificance. But while the feelings themselves are all too real, the person we are feeling them for is not. We have created in our minds this idealized "soulmate"(gag!) who <I>no one</I> can live up to IRL... not the "real" OP, not our spouse... <B>NO ONE.</B> We overlaid these incredibly REAL feelings onto someone who really doesn't exist, and cannot exist.<P>The only way any of this can be seen with any clarity is to go through withdrawal, come out of the fog on the other side and look back. I've told this here until I'm blue in the fingers, but this is an experience that must be <I>lived,</I> and unfortunately, no amount of experience from others matters one whit. An addiction, a fantasy, and a fog are the only possible way to describe it from the other side. If you do the work, ANYONE can come through this with a marriage better than they ever dreamed. But the betrayer at some point either has to let go of the fantasy, or run from their spouse and embrace it until the bubble finally bursts. If the latter, you'd better hope your spouse will still be there to catch you when you find out that OP really isn't all you made them out to be.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Wonderfully encouraging for the BS's, WhoDat. I periodically read the WS questions to try and get an idea of what my WS is going through. It's nice to know that after living through this h*** on earth, you can give up the fantasy of the OP. I hope my H will learn that in time. I am diligently working on us falling back in love. Thanks for the encouragement to keep going.

Wow, WhoDat! I hope some day I will have as much clarity as you do. I'm getting there, I have more clarity everyday. <P>I think you are exactly right! And I hadn't really thought much about it until I read your post. Just wanted to thank you for that.<P><BR>SKM, <P>How are you doing, gal? From reading some of your posts, I thought you were further along in this recovery process than me! As far as the length of time I've been going through this, yes, it's been quite awhile! I guess we all have our ups and downs! <P>I'll walk beside you, don't follow my lead, you never know where we'll end up! LOL <P>Seriously, I'm trying my hardest to stay on the right track. I know what I've done wrong, I know what I should and shouldn't do, so it's just a matter of doing what's right. Know what I mean? I also remind myself constantly that OM's not worth all the heartache to my H and also our kids. How can I sacrifice them just to make me "momentarily happy"? I love them too much to play the game anymore.<P>Keep on truckin'! We'll get past all of this! My thoughts and prayers are with you!

Great postings! I thought I had strength for the long haul but now I'm sure of it. There'll still be those "hopeless" feelings but I know in my soul and by God that the only way we will not get to the happy ending is if I give up.<P>I am not giving up.

Hey, WhoDat!<P>How the heck are you?<P>As you see, I'm here causing trouble again. <P>All's well at home. Et tu?<P>Been reading?????????<P>

Hello WhoDat,<P>THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!<P>Your post is wonderfully enlightening and encouraging. I hope everyone who visits this site will take the opportunity to read it and take your words seriously.<P>Thanks again!<P>Peppermint

While I appreciate the comments, I’m certainly not worthy of them (and although I appreciate the nomination, Changed Man, I’ll defer to Dr. Harley… I owe my marriage to him, after all!). Likely most of you are too new to know how truly ugly my story is. Even though I never posted it all (and who has?), what the oldtimers saw was bad enough. I won’t go into it again; reopening old wounds does neither my marriage nor myself any good, as I have already learned from mistakes made. Unfortunately, I didn’t “come to my senses;” my OW decided to stay in her marriage and celebrated by having another affair… before she let me know ours was over. My withdrawal from this “love”(glrrgh!) lasted nearly a year; far longer than the affair itself. I define my length withdrawal a bit differently, hence the longer timeframe. I feel it lasted until I could see the OW for what she really was, instead of the idealized person I had placed these amazing feelings upon. She truly is everything I never wanted in a woman.<P>I fell back in love with my W much sooner than that, though. In fact, strangely enough, I don’t think I ever did STOP loving my W… it’s just, as I said, that day-to-day, year after year comfortable love just can’t compare to the intensity of the feelings the fantasy of the affair bring.<P>And Hi there, Dazed! Things at home are pretty wonderful! Ups and downs just like any relationship, but we know enough now to work on them together! And on the reading… if you mean here; not much. If you mean elsewhere… I’m all caught up, and checked in today. I particularly liked the newspaper clipping… I hope Eileen gets to see it, although I’m sure she already knows how close she truly came…<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Homer:<P>My stbx was a "ws" at one time. We are close to divorce now, and he has resumed his relationship with Mia, the woman with whom he had his affair. He posted here on this board as "Exhausted Man". <P>Way, way back, I'd say about 15 months ago I posted my first post about how I found out about my H's affair. I was bitter, angry, resentful and quite frankly didn't give a rat's behind about plan A, B, C or D! I hated my H for what he'd done. Who Dat wrote some very "colorful" things in my posts and he had reasons for them. I wish I had cooled off from my anger long enough to really try hard to fix my marriage. In the end, everything my stbx posted on this site about me and our problems and how very much he tried and I didn't was all true. It's too late for me now. <P>My stbx did end the relationship with Mia to work on our marriage. Only I wasn't willing to work on moving past the anger and hurt. After about a year, we decided to end the marriage, and he went back to seeing Mia. The worst part of all of this is that he is genuinely happy with her. That stings like the dickens to say but I can see that they care deeply about each other. I on the other hand, continously wanted to "punish" him for his indescretion.<P>Your wife probably does love this man. But you will have to be willing to set aside any negative feelings you have about the affair and work your tail off to be the man she fell in love with. I wish I had taken my own advise....<P>Take care,<BR>TL

Tired Lady,<P>Please print up your post and send it to your stbx. It could never hurt.<P>allison