WhoDat...I know this is not really your thread, but what you wrote was so eloquent and "right-on" that I had to respond. I believe me and my H (stbx) were in that coast mode as well. Nothing bad really, just pre-occupied and not paying enough attention to our marriage and where it was headed. He had a PA/EA starting last May 1999. However, he ultimately left me and the kids to have a life with OW. He is still with her. We will be divorced in about a month. He is planning to marry OW right away. I wish he had tried after his affair, but to be honest, he just didn't want me after that. It's hard to swallow on my part but it's the truth. He gave up on us and decided I could NEVER be what he truly needed. I wasn't given the chance to try and I almost lost my mind for the 8 months he continued to live with me and lie and pretend to try. When he finally left it was such a relief not to have to try and compete with OW and always come up short. I just never had a chance once he met her. It was extremely stressful. His 6 months has turned in to over a year. I guess it really was true love for him. I don't know what I was for the 15 years we were married (14 of them I considered good). Maybe he was just hanging around until his "true love" came along. I don't know. But I thought the coasting analogy was good. I didn't mean to go on like this...but the words just came pouring out. It helps to say this stuff to betrayers since my H isn't interested in anything I say. Hope you guys don't mind letting me get this stuff off my chest.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhoDat:<BR><B>Marie:<P>You can sit there in your deserved indignation, refusing to Plan A, and you will be right the entire time.<P>If being right is more important to you than being married, by all means continue to BE right. You will win, because you ARE right (and I'm serious as a heart attack about this whole post). You will win loneliness, tears, and a divorce decree.<P>Plan A isn’t about kissing your spouses backside, it’s about PROVING to them that you are a safe haven for them to return to when the fantasy of the affair finally crashes.<P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OUCH! AND, OH MY! <P>Again, I feel that you, and others that have responded to my post, have missed my point. This is about TWO PEOPLE who have decided to work on the marriage doing something "selfless" for the other--meeting needs without asking "why should I?"...or telling your spouse you can't/won't do something for them. It's about compromising--not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.<P>Perhaps I'm confused, but I thought PLAN A was for a wayward spouse who has not yet committed to their marriage---in other words they are trying to make up their minds if they want OP or spouse. The BS then uses PLAN A to "win back" their spouse...to put themselves in the best light possible. However, from what I've been reading in Dr.Harley's books (namely Surviving an Affair) and from the examples in the book, he counsels couples who have decided to "make a go" of the marriage--who have COMMITTED THEMSELVES TO SAVING THE MARRIAGE-- to MEET EACH OTHERS NEEDS. He doesn't simply say (to the BS), "OK PLAN A WORKED. YOUR SPOUSE IS BACK. NOW, BS, YOU MUST CONTINUE TO PLAN A INDEFINITELY." Rather, he puts them (the couple) on what he terms a "plan for recovery". I do not believe this should be confused with, nor is it the same as, PLAN A.<P>Here is an excerpt taken from the book (see CHAPTER 6--Preparing for Marital Recovery)which discusses identifying and meeting your spouses five most important emotional needs. Again this pertains to both the BS and the WS:<P>"People take courses regularly to become experts at all sorts of things--typing, computer programming, hair styling, teaching. And at the beginning, learning any new skill may seem awkward and it usually requires some effort. Take typing, for example. At first it seems very unnatural. You search for every letter. But with practice typing becomes almost effortless and requires very little thought. You just know where the letters are because it has become a well-developed habit.<P>Habits that meet your spouse's needs develop in the same way. At first, they may seem uncomfortable to you but with practice, they become a habit, part of who you are. A good marriage becomes almost effortless when spouses develop habits that meet each other's needs.<P>When Jon (BS) and Sue (WS) identified their five most important emotional needs, I asked them to make a trade. Jon would agree to become an expert in meeting Sue's most important emotional needs, and in return Sue would become an expert in meeting Jon's. But my problem with Sue and Jon was not in their learning how to meet each other's needs, it was in their wanting to meet each other's needs.<P>Sue did not want to meet Jon's need for sexual fulfillment. And Jon felt the same way about meeting Sue's need for affection and conversation. But if they didn't meet each other's emotional needs, the feeling of love they needed for their marriage would never materialize. Unless they met those needs for each other, there would not be enough love units deposited to trigger the feeling of love in either of them.<P>So I asked them to "prime the pump" to get love units flowing. Granted, it would have been much easier for them to meet each other's important emotional needs if they had been in love. But if they had waited for love before trying to meet each other's needs, they would still be waiting. My encouragement for both of them to make a trade and try to meet each other's emotional needs right away helped start depositing those love units that were essential to marital recovery." (End of book quote pgs 117-118).<P>Please note that my post states that my H and I "compromised/bargained"....just as Harley's book instructed us to do in the example above. I would not ask him to do anything that he strongly objected to--nor would I advise any of you to do something you strongly objected to do. I was simply asking for the WS to think of what the BS was asking for--and then trying to compromise or "meet them half way". As I pointed out to Truthseeker, this may be asking for too much in HER SITUATION, but in our situation it is working for me and H. Again, the BIG word is COMPROMISE.....or if you like Dr. Harley's words better "making a trade".<P>Again, I think it's important to understand the difference between PLAN A and the PLAN FOR MARITAL RECOVERY.<P>Sorry to have ruffled any feathers. As always, best of luck to all of us. Peace, ~Marie<P>

marie,<P>Go back and read whodat's reply. Again, you will be RIGHT, but does that matter? <P>I'm telling you, as a woman going through divorce, that it didn't have to come to this. Had my stbx given me a "safe" place, a port in the storm, I am POSITIVE that our marriage would have survived. <P>When he cheated, I gave him the room he needed and wasn't a great plan a'er having not even heard of Plan anything... but we were happily married for 13 more years, even had a marriage renewal service five years later. <P>Five years after that, three months after my 40th birthday, I made a terrible mistake and had an affair that produced one sexual encounter over a three month period. I'm not saying I'm better than he is, just that I forgave several affairs and went on, though very, very hurt. He said he forgave me, but put all these expecations on me. He needed to hear that I was in love with him, and I COULDN'T SAY IT. I made love to him, cooked his meals, listened to him and held him when he cried, all because I loved him but was in the fantasy stages of the affair and then withdrawl. <P>I refused to lie. He found someone else who could say the words he needed to hear. We are getting a divorce. Had he given me some time and put forth a genuine effort, I honestly think we'd be together today. That's all I'm trying to say.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TruthSeeker:<P>If he really does love you and simply has a hard time saying it, then I would say he's not meeting your needs and should be more considerate and tell you that.<P>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>YES, yes, yes! THANK YOU TRUTHSEEKER. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT. BLESS YOU for stating it so eloquently <P>H does love me...he just didn't want to be "told" when to say it--I think I originally requested H, as we were discussing JOINT NEEDS with our counselor, to say "I LOVE YOU" daily. And again, I reiterate, this was a request--not a demand--BIG DIFFERENCE!<P>BTW, I didn't realize that asking for 3 small words (I LOVE YOU) could cause such a big commotion. Geesh!--the "power" of love!!! Guess I picked the wrong example to use.....should have gone with "please pick up dirty socks" <P>Peace, ~Marie<BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited July 10, 2000).]

WhoDat,<P>You said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plan A isn’t about kissing your spouses backside, it’s about PROVING to them that you are a safe haven for them to return to when the fantasy of the affair finally crashes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am not at all sure that it is possible to prove that you are a safe haven, because what you do or say is largely irrelevant. It is only their perception that matters - and if the perception is that you are a horrible person, that is what they would see, no matter what you do. I have done my utmost to make sure my H is kept abreast of the kid's activities and their progress - not just because I know he wants to be kept informed, but also because I think a close relationship between them is important for the kids and for him, and because he is their father and should be involved in their lives. Yet he still acts as if, and has actually accused me of, hiding things from him. <P>He wants to believe that I am not trustworthy, and on one occasion, when he couldn't come up with any instance of my lying to him, resorted to saying that I was not trustworthy because I said I would go back to work when the kids were "older", and never did so - yet our youngest (of six) was all of 3 at the time. <P>How can Plan A possibly work under these circumstances?<P>

Truthseeker: <P>This is not meant to be a slam, but an honest reaction to what you said.<P>If you truly set aside who you were and became another person when you originally met and became involved with the man you chose to marry, then you betrayed your spouse even before you married him. And, either you should not have married him at all, or you should have divorced him once you realized you did not love him anymore.<P>Never would I say that you should become someone you are not. And I did not say anything about "forcing" love. I said that it is NOT going to just "happen"... you must take an active role in recovering it. If you cannot do it or are not willing to try, you may as well quit now and just get a divorce - because you will never be successful.<P>If you were teaching someone how to do something new, and that person said to you everyday, "This is too hard for me. I can't learn how to do this" and everytime they couldn't "master" the task they responded, "See? I can't do it" and quit trying, what would you think? What would you say to him or her? You would most likely think: gee, this person has a terribly negative attitude. What a quitter! And you might say to him or her "You will never be able to do it if you don't BELIEVE you can do it!"<P>It is the same... you cannot feel or "master" the action of love if you don't believe you can feel it... you have to keep trying ... you have to become vulnerable to failure in order to succeed ...<P>If you feel that by doing this, you are betraying yourself, then you don't belong in a marriage. I agree with Marie - then just end it now and don't make us continue to suffer. That doesn't mean blame your spouse because you feel you changed too much to accommodate him - it means take the responsibility that is yours and say "I am a failure at this marriage. I cannot do this, because I am not willing to try." And leave - get a divorce - END the marriage. Don't torture your spouse with feeble "I'm trying"'s and then not try.<P>OK, this all might've sounded awfully harsh, but you have to see that when you won't even try to do what so many therapists and happily married couples have found is one of the single most effective ways to find love right in your own marriage, you are telling the person you have hurt that he or she is not WORTH your effort. And if that is how you insist on feeling, then you should not be married.<P>Sorry if this is seen as offensive - but it is how I feel. And it is what I am absolutely certain of: Success can only happen if you believe you WILL succeed. If you refuse to take that risk, you are dooming yourself to failure.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

Marie,<P>What still has me confused is what you said in your first post in this thread.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>And, if your betrayed spouse states that they need to hear I LOVE YOU than for goodness sakes SAY IT--DO IT FOR THEM!!!!....even if it is pretending....I honestly don't care if my H doesn't mean it, I just NEED to hear it.....<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is what I don't understand. Why on Earth would anyone want to hear it if it's a lie? This is what prompted my original reply to you. That he shouldn't say it if he doesn't feel it, because that wouldn't be honest and you would always have that nagging doubt "Does he really mean it?". If he waits until he feels it, you will KNOW he means it. It will be that much more special to hear it.<P>terri,<P>I'm not offended at all by what you're saying. It's something I've been tossing around in my head since this whole crisis started. I decided to stay and give it a shot based on encouragement I got here and on the advice of my counselor. I'm going through somewhat of a personal crisis right now and until I get that sorted out it would not do me any to make a decision of that importance until I have myself sorted out a little better. I am being as honest as I know how to be with my H. He was originally going to leave, then chagned his mind. He said that to leave would not be true to who he was and what he wanted. So he's riding out the 'storm' with me and we're talking a lot about issues that come up and attempting to spend time together to get acquainted with who we really are. Sorting it all out will take time. The way I see it, as long as I am honest with my H about everything, if he decides to stay and wait it out, it's his decision. If he decides it's too much to put up with, it's his decision. Once I get to the point where I think I am able to make the decision if this marriage is what I want he will probably already know, because we have been discussing everything.<P>My major goal in life right now is to live it honestly. I think I'm on the right track for doing that. It will take time to sort things out, but with the grace of God, I'll get there.

Hello guys,<P>Remember the different phases of marriage--Intimacy, Conflict, Withdrawal that Harley talks about? (so many theories, so little time!) I think you guys are at odds here because you are in different phases. What is working for one, isn't going to work for the other. Marie, you are definately in Intimacy and are speaking from there. TS cannot not relate to you now.<P>TS, you are not wrong either. I hope what you are doing is helping you and your marriage. If it is only helping you, then you may or may not want to reevaluate your plan. Marie would never be able to do it this way. It's not what she's about. Her beliefs about love and marriage are so different from yours.<P> When you made mention of what Marie said about "pretending"--maybe she miss worded or maybe she didn't but I know what she was saying. <P>I loved my H but could bring myself to tell him or even to admit it to myself after d-day. He's the betrayer. At first when I said it I really was "pretending"--I didn't feel the love behind it. I hadn't forgiven him. I felt it was a lie. I physically had to push the words out of my mouth. I practically threw up "I love you"! On many occasions I would rather have said "I hate you". Yet I did it because I knew it was his EN. I did it more for my marriage than for him. Thought I'd put in my best effort and then leave him. I thought this just about daily.<BR>I never knew if love I felt for him would ever return.<P> It eventually did. This love feels so real. This love is not for me, it's for another human. Cannot believe I could forgive him, could not believe I could ever admire a man I thought of as evil and a monster, pond slime, etc...for the things he has done. We didn't get here only because of three words. There was alot of damn hard work and many tears. But it is the foundation of marriage, isn't it? I just had to work like it was there even tho I could not believe it really was. <P>I'm not saying I'm right, either. We all have fundamental beliefs and adjust Harley principles to them...we all interpret the bible differently, why not other theories. What Marie does and what TS does may work for each of you. Marie's H isn't complaining. They are in recovery. I would hesitate to critique anyone's style of work in Plan A if it's helping the couple make progress. I hope what you are doing, TS, is working for you. <P>I gotta go to work. I'll look for my wet noodle lashing tomorrow. Love you guys, L.<P> <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TruthSeeker:<P>Why on Earth would anyone want to hear it if it's a lie? This is what prompted my original reply to you. That he shouldn't say it if he doesn't feel it, because that wouldn't be honest and you would always have that nagging doubt "Does he really mean it?". If he waits until he feels it, you will KNOW he means it. It will be that much more special to hear it. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear TruthSeeker: You know how sometimes you try to explain, and you feel like you keep repeating yourself and you realize that you still aren't making any sense to the person you're "communicating" with????----kinda like you're talking with marbles in your mouth????---that's how I feel <P>And, because I'm utterly exhausted, I'm going to refer you to Leilana's post above mine...because she said it so succinctly! <P>Here's a small part of what she wrote (just in case you're as emotionally drained as I am and don't have the strength to scroll up ):<P>"At first when I said it I really was "pretending"--I didn't feel the love behind it. I hadn't forgiven him. I felt it was a lie. I physically had to push the words out of my mouth. I practically threw up "I love you"! On many occasions I would rather have said "I hate you". Yet I did it because I knew it was his EN. I did it more for my marriage than for him. Thought I'd put in my best effort and then leave him. I thought this just about daily.<BR>I never knew if love I felt for him would ever return." <end of quote><P>For me, the important words that Leilana said are that she did it because she knew it was one of her H's EN. She did it more for the marriage than for him.<P>I don't know how to explain it any more clearly than this.<P>Peace, ~Marie<p>[This message has been edited by ohmy_marie (edited July 11, 2000).]