That is the question.<P>I posted in a previous thread (can't remember which one) about having warm feelings about my H but being concerned that rather the feelings were brought on because he was making me feel very loved by his actions and I deperately NEEDED to fell loved at the time. I mentioned that I wanted to have feelings for him more because of who he is and because I enjoy his company than because he makes me feel loved.<P>I mentioned this to my counselor and I half-expected the same response that I would expect to get here - "what's wrong with feeling something for him for filling a need like that?"<P>Instead she understood exactly where I was coming from. That I wanted to need him because I love him and not love him because I need him, because of what he can do for me. It made an incredible amount of sense to me. But if this is true, how am I going get those feelings for him? Is there any hope? <P>I don't want to give in to feeling like I need him. I don't think that would be fair to him. He would be doing all of the giving and me all of the taking (pretty much the way things have been throughout my marriage and it hasn't been a successful recipe for us)<P>Comments?<P>

But TS,<P>Does he need you? What are you giving him that he needs? Maybe it's enough for him. Maybe it makes him happy that you're there and trying and that is all that he needs right now.<P>Please forgive me for being frank, but it's almost like you're looking for excuses to end your marriage. Sounds like you're still feeling a lot of guilt. Do you wonder if your H is truly happy? Just because you would not be happy with what you are willing to give, does not mean it doesn't make him happy. Maybe, like so many of us here, he does not have high expecations of what he will get from you right now.<P>Sounds like your therapist had a good point, but we need to remember that, right or wrong, every relationship has a giver and a taker. That's just how it is. You are the taker. It does not make you a bad person, any more than it makes my H a bad person for his taker role. <P>Why do you work so hard to justify this? Because it's not making you happy yet? You know...there is not a marriage I can think of, none, that I cannot almost immediatley ses which of the spouses are more attached or in love with the other. You can see it in sublte ways...the way one looks at the other, or talks about the other. One spouse is almost always more secure.<P>Maybe you may never feel that wonderful head over heels feeling for your husband, but can you imagine spending the rest of your life without him? I know we all want the romance and heart-pounding in love stuff, but I guess I just feel like I got it at the beginning, and that was enough. It made me crazy. Maybe I'm nuts, but give me comfortable old love any day.<P>When we get home from work what's the first thing we do...get on the sweats/jeans/shorts/t-shirts that we love. Yeah, we'd look great hanging around watching TV in our dresses and pantyhose, suits and ties, but we'd be very uncomfortable. Yep, give me comfort, familiarity, softness, warmth. That is all I ever wanted. A soft place to fall as Dr. Phil says. A familiar face waiting for me at the end of my day.<P>Sorry for the rant, but I guess I just don't know why people don't see that life is just what it is sometimes. That is not at all meant as a slam on anyone here. We just go through different stages in life and I have had no trouble accepting them. My H on the other hand, can't take it. Needs to feel sparks and ups and downs and new love and heartbreak. I just don't get it.<P>allison<P>

TruthSeeker:<P>You are probably tired of me already... you have inspired some of my best posts, though! And this is certainly the most posting I've done here in ... months!<P>I hate to tell you this, but you are HARDLY unique in your "need to feel loved." All human beings need to feel loved - it is part of the reason we have intimate interpersonal relationships! We all need to feel loved, and it is only unhealthy when we base our entire existence on that need. If feeling loved is an emotional need of yours, your warm feelings toward your husband's loving actions simply mean that he is FINALLY meeting that need for you!<P>That is a reason to CHEER!!! It IS the hope!!!<P>We fall in love with people who make us feel GOOD ABOUT OURSELVES - people who make us FEEL LOVED!!! Those "warm fuzzies" are EXACTLY what the beginnings of loving feelings are ... someone is meeting your emotional needs. <P>I am SOOOOOO happy that this is happening - and you should be too. It is the sign you've been looking for. You don't NEED him... you need to feel loved. Your husband makes you feel loved. So, you are beginning to love your husband. Don't you see it?<P>I wish there was a way that you could feel as incredibly absolutely stunningly POSITIVE about this as I am feeling. I hope that you can feel that way soon!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I can see clearly now,<BR>the rain is gone ...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TruthSeeker:<BR><B>But if this is true, how am I going get those feelings for him? Is there any hope? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why don't you do something to take the whole "need" thing out of the equation so you can just enjoy each other without this feeling of indebtedness or that someone is being cheated?<P>What is it about each other that you need? Can you find a way to fill that need yourself? For example, if he gives you money, can you find a way to make more money so that you don't need him for that? If he needs you for cooking, he can learn how to share the cooking. <P>I am a very self reliant person. One thing I have never done is "need" anyone for anything, so I feel it makes all my relationships meaningful because they are all based on choice not something they can give me or something we trade (although I suppose companionship is a good trade, but not a need).<P>If this doesn't work for you, try accepting what is. There is nothing wrong with mutually supporting and providing things for each other. The problem isn't the help you give each other, but your attitude towards it.

Hi Truthseeker,<P>About a year ago, a guy named airheart began a thread about just this kind of thing. He got all sorts of frustrated responses ... <P>It was suggested to him that he "fake it till you make it"... and we had quite the dialogue about how well that works. For most, it doesn't work, by the way, and only serves to give false hope to the betrayed spouse, as well as not providing the TOTAL HONESTY that the marriage deserves. <P>Is it, or is it not dishonest to tell your spouse that you are in love with them when you either clearly aren't, or just aren't ready to say it for whatever reason? You might think it makes them feel better because it is an EN to them to feel loved and protected - and it *would* if it were honest. Do you not think your spouse, of all people, can't read right through you? And words are just words... actions are what show the truth.<P>Truthseeker, you know what you feel in your heart, and you are trying to make your marriage work using the tools you have learned about here and in therapy. Only you know if you are making a dent in things. I think that the fact that you're here says volumes about how hard you're still trying despite some pretty big hurdles. <P>I understand you. I support you. Just wanted you to know. <p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited July 11, 2000).]

Hi TS,<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I posted in a previous thread (can't remember which one) about having warm feelings about my H but being concerned that rather the feelings were brought on because he was making me feel very loved by his actions and I desperately NEEDED to fell loved at the time. I mentioned that I wanted to have feelings for him more because of who he is and because I enjoy his company than because he makes me feel loved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I thought about this question and I thought some more. I realize what I am going to say will not make much difference, but here goes.<P>In your quote above you say you want to feel love for your H because you enjoy his company rather than he makes you feel loved. I guess my take on this is that I really enjoy the company of many people (male and female) but I don't love them because of it. I do love my wife because she loves me. It is a major reason. My wife and I were friends long before we fell in love. In fact we met on a blind date and didn't like one another at all. We didn't see each other for a year.<P>So it was not love a first sight. We fell in love with each other as time went on. It was gradual and it was subtle. I really liked her a lot. The love part came as our relation deepened.<P>Now you may ask what has that got to do with my question. Well, as you know I came here because I was worrying about the state of our marriage. I felt I was falling out of love with my wife and was beginning to wonder about divorce. Why? Well, after reading here for months and reading about infidelity and all of this I realized, that a lot of my feeling we connected to the feeling that my W no longer loved me.<P>I realized my marriage problems were mostly mine but were prompted by the feeling that my wife really didn't love me. So I began to question my love for her.<P>Now your question seems to fall somewhere in my experience, I think. I feel love for my W in direct response to how I preceive she feels love for me. So my answer to your question, is that my "need" for love, does affect my ability to love. <P>It isn't the whole picture, for I came to realize that I loved my W after much introspection, without her changing a single thing she had been doing. But I did want more so I began to use the information here to make my marriage something I was more comfortable with. It has worked. W and I talk more about deep things. She is more open to me and in her way tries to show her love more openly.<P>But there is a connection between how much one feels love to how much one gives love. It is not a binary switch though. You can love someone and not get much back from them. Your H is a very good example. You are not showing him any love and he still loves you. But he may know something you don't. You are still in withdrawal from the affair, if not the OM. Further, he feels strong enough to risk giving love and being rejected.<P>I realize you view this as an "if" check with two possible paths, but it is really "fuzzy" logic . There are many combinations of the two states you have mentioned possible. You have to decide on your on comfort level.<P>My guess is that you are still very afraid to "need" anything from your H and maybe from any man. After all the OM supplied nothing but a fantasy for you. He was not interested in a romance with you. Had he pursued the relationship and you felt "needy" with him you may have bolted from that relationship. I don't know. You probably don't know.<P>TS, as usual, you are asking a very difficult question. Not so much because people don't know the answer but because in you endeavor to boil it down to basics, you boil away the subtle aspects of the relation.<P>I believe someone above, mentioned the possibility that your H "needs" you as well and that is why he is willing to give you love although getting little in return.<P>I responded to one of SKM's posts in the last few days. She was questioning how her H could love her after her affair and how she felt like a second class citizen to him. I told her what I am suggesting to you. Her H didn't want her to be second class and he loved her despite the affair, because he "needed" her and her love. <P>She showed the thread to her H and it brought tears to his eyes. Because it was true, he did need her and her love.<P>So TS, I don't know about you, but I know from experience and observation that people often do love at least in part because they need love themselves. We aren't really all that ulteristic in our behavior.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I might be way off here, but I'm wondering if it doesn't have more to do with "what is love"<P>TS you mentioned that your counselor said you want to "need your husband because you LOVE him". You want to be sure you love him. Then you ask, how will you get those feelings? Are you thinking that love is (equals) feelings?<P>What is love? If I look at what the Bible calls love, it really doesn't have much to do with feelings. For example: Love is patient, love is kind, love does not keep a record of wrongs, love is not rude, love does not seek its own... You can find more about what love is by reading the whole of 1Corinthians 13. There isn't really much about feelings, though I believe feelings often accompany love. They accompany love, but are NOT love itself.<P>So, are you patient with your husband? Are you kind, not rude...? Then you are showing him love, you are choosing to love him. You cannot "get" those feelings (make them come about). We can't "get" any feelings - feelings just are. But we can act in love (as described above). Think about it, God does command us to love one another. If love were based on feelings and we can't "get" or control our feelings, then that would be a command we couldn't fulfill. But if love is really actions, then we can control our behavior and we can fulfill God's command to love others. <P>Every minute of every day that you choose to be kind, patient, not easily angered... to your husband - then you are loving him! <P>So, what about those feelings? We all want those too - they are so nice. And really God created feelings - we are meant to feel - that is the kind of beings He made us to be. So, I believe God wants us to have feelings also. Yet, I believe only God can raise up those feelings in us. Ask Him to do that for you. You cannot "get" (or create) them yourself. You act in a loving way and trust Him to raise up the feelings. He wants that for you, I am convinced!<P>I am in a similar situation as you (absence of feelings). Is there hope? Yes! My hope is in God. And that is faith - to hope in what is yet unseen (in this case, the feelings of love). Look to His promises:<P>"You open Your hand And satisfy the desire of every living thing" (Psalm 145). <P>He does want to satisfy you. In your time of barrenness (as far as the feelings go), wait patiently for what He will raise up. Trust and look in hope towards Him, for nothing is impossible with God.<P>Bless you today, TruthSeeker! <P><p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited July 11, 2000).]

WOW Sifted!! <P>Excellent point!! <P>...and you have convinced me that it's possible to love someone without even realizing it!!<P>Pretty amazing!

Just one more thought: I was thinking just this morning - if I love my husband (by being kind, patient, etc), and the feelings never come, I have still fulfilled what is required of me - I have loved. If I get to the end of my life and I have loved my husband, children and others - I have fulfilled the command God has given, I will have been a good and faithful servant. And that gives me great peace and joy. Then I will have done, "so far as it depends on me". And also in loving others (especially my husband), I will have loved God. So, I don't want to set my sights/desires on only the feelings. They are a wonderful side blessing, but they are not everything and the final goal to reach for. I am to love.

new_beginning,<P>Just what I have been realizing also lately. I have at times felt guilty because feelings weren't there, thinking it meant I didn't love. But when I realize what love is, I see I have been loving! And that is all that is required of me. What a relief!<P>This reminds me of the post where someone wanted to hear the words "I love you". I have trouble saying those also. Maybe because we want to "feel" a certain way to say it, but we can also say it by the way we act towards someone. That is also saying, "I love you", whether feelings are there or not.<P>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited July 11, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited July 11, 2000).]

I thought about this over night...and then checked the responses this morning.<P>Truthseeker, I was going to first ask you to define what you meant by love.<P>I absolutely agree with siftedlikewheat about Love being so much more than just a feeling. <P>You gotta know that I love that 1 Corinthians 13 verses (my name is part of it). It is an an examble of real love in action. Actually it is an example of Agape love, which is the unconditional love we have for one another as humans. In the Christian sense, it is reflecting the love God has for us, by loving all our fellow humans unconditionally.<P>Marriage needs a huge dose of Agape love, especially doing rough times. The really cool thing about Agape love is that it is a love of choice and a love of action. It is an attitude and a process instead of a proclaimation. I would think much of the love you are feeling from your H is Agape right now. I would guess the feelings you seem to be questioning, even fighting, are also at least part Agape.<P>Of course there are more types of love in marriage. Another love your marriage may be still strong in is Storge (not sure of these spellings). This is the Love of loyalty and belonging and familiarity. You can call it an old shoe type love, (if you are fond of old shoes). It comes from a shared history and it it provides security and comfort in a marriage. Some of the love you feel from your H may be Storge love, and some of the warm feelings you describe may be Storge for you as well.<P>Now if your marriage has these types of love...that's a good thing. I think you may be feeling these types of love, but instead of embrassing and building upon them and respecting them for their own significance in the tapestry of your married love, you are dismissing them and even holding them suspect because you are not labeling them as the "right" love. Could this be true? <P>I mean in your quest for the real honest love you are searching for, you ignoring some vital systems you need to build that complete love. An example would be you are shopping for a car and you take great effort into choosing the model and color based on how it looks, but you don't pay much attention to the tires, say or the under carriage. If you took that flashy new car on the highway without those parts, you wouldn't get very far, would you?<P>The other loves in a marriage are based on feelings. Phileo (spelling) which is a cherished friendship. Eros, which is the pitter patter romantic type of love, is also a feeling. Then their is one more that I can not remember the Latin name, but it loosely translates as lust or desire.<P>Many times we confuse a combination of Eros and lust for "real" love because the feelings are so heady and so powerful, how can't it be real and desired?<P>Well the feelings are real, but if it is not built on a frame work of the other loves, it will burn brightly and die.<P>The feelings types of Love must and can be nurtured. <P>I'm not sure exactly what you mean in that you are doing the activities necessary to make that happen. I'm sure whatever you are doing is a good thing...spending time, communicating, etc..<P>However, if you are expecting love to be a feeling that will decend on you and you want it to be for your "right reasons", then I'm not sure that you are doing all you can.<P>Truthseeker, I think you would benefit by really thinking through your definition of love and then evaluating if your definition is complete.<P>I have to say I am a little baffled at your desire not to "need" to be loved. Personally I think that is part of the tapestry of marriage. However, I think you would also benefit by fully describing these "needs" you don't want to have and deciding if you want to hold on the this idea or redefine it.<P>Truthseeker I admire how you are exploring yourself instead of just following your feelings. I hope this at least gives you something to think about. <P><p>[This message has been edited by FaithHopeLove (edited July 11, 2000).]

Lots of good responses. I'm not sure where to begin. I'm still a bit confused (is anyone surprised? )<P>I'm having a busy day, so I'll have to come back to this when I have enough time to sort it all out. (I'm actually getting some work done! )<P>Until then, I'll just say thanks for the input. There is much to be learned here - just not sure yet what it is.<P>

OK. I think I've gotten past today's crisis with my son turning 18 and me feeling like I wasn't needed anymore. I can put some time and enrgy into thinking about this question now.<P><B>Allison</B>,<P>The things is I don't want to be the taker anymore. The EA showed me that I'm capable of giving and I liked that feeling. I want to be able to give and I haven't been able to give to my H. I haven't had any desire to.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Maybe you may never feel that wonderful head over heels feeling for your husband, but can you imagine spending the rest of your life without him? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*sigh* Yes, I can imagine life without him. I often do. <P>RE: comfort vs. sparks<P>Do we have to give up one to have the other? Are they mutually exclusive? Am I wrong to want BOTH?<P><B>terri</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>You are probably tired of me already<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hardly. I welcome all input. The more varied the responses the more confused I can get . Actually I like getting as many points of view as possible. I always get at least a littel something out of each one. I especially like postivie responses <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>You don't NEED him... you need to feel loved. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's my point. I'm GETTING, not GIVING. I have no desire to GIVE him anything, just to take what he's giving me because it feels good. I want to give. It feels good to give. But not to him for some reason. <P><B>popeye</B><P>It's not a practical need that's getting in my way. It's a purely emotional need.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I am a very self reliant person. One thing I have never done is "need" anyone for anything, so I feel it makes all my relationships meaningful because they are all based on choice not something they can give me or something we trade (although I suppose companionship is a good trade, but not a need).<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, that's my point. (though I still shrink back a bit from the word choice - the whole 'love is a decision' train of thought sounds like a foreign language to me. I just can't comprehend it.)<P>I am self-reliant, but as terri pointed out, all humans need to feel loved . I don't want to make this need, a weakness of mine, the cornerstone of my marriage. I'd rather bring my strenghts to it (Still working on what those are )<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>If this doesn't work for you, try accepting what is. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've always had a difficult time with this. I think it's important for me to learn how, though.<P><B>NB</B>,<P>Your words are like a breath of fresh air! Thank you so much for your support. When I hear someone say something that makes sense to me I start to feel a little more sane and a little less like an alien visiting from another planet. <P><B>JL</B>,<P>I'm glad to hear that your marriage is moving in the direction you want. You hadn't mentioned it much and when you sounded so discouraged a week or so ago, I was wondering if things weren't going well. <P>I was going to say that you were right, that what you said made no difference. (But I appreciate the input anyway ) But then I read this part.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>My guess is that you are still very afraid to "need" anything from your H and maybe from any man. After all the OM supplied nothing but a fantasy for you. He was not interested in a romance with you. Had he pursued the relationship and you felt "needy" with him you may have bolted from that relationship. I don't know. You probably don't know.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, I did start to feel needy with him which is why he wasn't interested. <P>As I thought about this a bit, a lightbulb went off. Maybe that's it! I don't want to need, because when I do people leave! And that's just when their leaving hurts the most!<P>Thank you, JL! You finally said something that turned on a light for me! And you thought you wouldn't make a difference!<P><B>Sifted (and FHL)</B>,<P>I thought long and hard about your post. I like the idea, but something is still missing for me. I think a marriage needs more than what is spelled out in I-Cor-13. That kind of love can be applied to anyone - a stranger. Your spouse is supposed to be more special than that. I think a marriage REQUIRES the feelings.<P><B>FHL</B><P>I'm not sure I agree that the feelings can be nurtured. OR maybe they can be nurtured, just not created out of the blue (not by mere mortals anyway).<P>I think it's entirely possible that feelings of love can be masked by negative feelings like anger, hurt, and fear. But once you peel away those negative feelings, there is the possibility that there is nothing underneath. And that just leaves the first 2 types of love you mentioned - Agape and Storge. I guess I'm a little greedy. I want more than that. I think a marriage SHOULD have more than that.<P>I guess what remains for me to do is finish peeling back the negative feelings and take a peek at what's behind them to see what's there and what's not.<P>I think I have learned something here. Thanks, everyone, for your input. <BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited July 12, 2000).]

TS,<P>I came out of hibernation last night...<P>I have a question. I too have spent my life seeking for truth. But when it comes to such practical issues like marriage, what do you do while you are searching? You must still live your life day in and day out, right?<P>I don't know your h. Maybe he's not really worth the effort. And I understant not wanting to need him too much. After all, my h fell in-love with another woman, and almost left me. That may well be the hardest part of recovery, allowing myself to need him again.<P>I agree with FHL's discursion on love. But I've also learned the hard way that feelings matter. But which comes first?? Are you waiting to have the feelings first, then do some plan A stuff??<P>What needs does your h have that you don't want to meet?? I think you mentioned affection once. There was a time my h was repulsed when I tried to be affectionate. After all, it is my top need, not his, and he was in-love with another woman.<P>But I found ways that we both could like. Instead of hugs, which he felt were "clingy", I would run the tips of my fingers on his back or legs. He liked that.<P>I don't think Plan A is to do something you are blatantly uncomfortable with, but you find a way.<P>If you are afraid of needing him, how about you do such a good plan A that he is hopelessly in-love with you??<P>I agree with wanting to give not just take. I have only recently tasted the feeling of really knowing I am the only one that could make him this happy.<P>I don't think it's ever only loving him for who he is or needing him, it is a tapestry like FHL said. When it is right, it is beautiful because it incorporates all the types of love and need.<P>But I ask you, are you waiting for the feelings to come first?? It hasn't worked for me.

Cindy,<P>Good to hear from you. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>If you are afraid of needing him, how about you do such a good plan A that he is hopelessly in-love with you??<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is hopelessly in-love with me. I just don't feel it back. It's weird. I don't consciously have a fear of him leaving me. I know he loves me and unless I really screw it up, he won't leave. I do have a fear of needing people too much. It's one of the reasons I've been so driven in my life to be financially independent. I watched my mother struggle after my father's death and I didn't want that to happen to me. But I failed to look at the emotioinal side of the coin. Emotionally, I tend to get attached very quickly and once attached, I don't like to let go. (Hence the EA and ensuing difficult withdrawal). But that tendency I have to get emotionally attached quickly is what usually drives people away from me. They see me as needy and they can't deal with it. They leave. I think a lot of it goes back to a fear of abandonment from my father's death at such a young age (I was 3). My H was at the same age (42) when all this started that my father was when he died. (And that age isn't too far away for me either)<P>But the pattern continues. I need. They leave. Now I'm afraid to need.<P>And I crave affection, I just don't want it from him much. And I want to give it to him less than I want to take it from him. I know I'm capable of sharing affection because of the EA. That situaion was in reverse. But then again. I needed. He left.<P>So I don't know if my feelings for my H are there and are buried under this fear or if they just aren't there. And that's what I need to find out.<P>I also have some thoughts on this give and take stuff but I don't have the words for it yet. I'll post more on that later.<BR>

TruthSeeker...if you want to read more about the five types of love and the tapestry they read, try Love Life For Every Married Couple by Dr. Ed Wheat...not a long book.<P>I really don't mean to sound insensitive, but if your H had an affair, I bet it would wake you right up. I've read it over and over agian on this board.<P>Think about that book...even my H liked it when I read it to him. It explains all of this much better than I can and had a different perspective than anything else I read.

Another thought just crossed my mind.<P>I don't remember ever feeling that same kind of need with my H. I need to feel loved, but I never felt like I needed it from him specifically. (In the EA, I felt like I needed it from the OM specifically). I'm wondering if I married my H BECAUSE I didn't feel like I needed him emotionally. If I didn't need him, he wouldn't leave. And if he did, it wouldn't matter.<P>Or maybe, because he always gave it willingly, I never felt it as a need? You don't really feel a need for something unless you don't have it right? You don't feel thirsty unless you're getting dehydrated, right?<P>But if that's the case, why did I have the EA to begin with?<P>It looks like I'm thinking in circles again....<P>

TS,<P>I don't think you are in a circle. You got involved with OM because you other needs that having someone love you, in your case recreation. Then because you do seem to attach rapidly, you attached to OM because of the recreation. <P>You are right, if you having a need met it isn't a need any more is it? That is why I like/dislike the word needs. I can't think of a better word, but it seems too limiting to me.<P>Keep thinking you will get there. Remember you are still in withdrawal and some of this may clear up once you finish that and you sort all you have learned.<P>God Bless,<P>JL