OK Let me see if I can present my question coherently.<P>I have been on this board since Feb 1999. Long term affair by h and coworker.(5+ years)<BR>H keeps telling me it was over a long time ago. He moved out 1st time May 99, 2nd time June 99 and 3rd time Sept 99. Still lives in an apt. My history is still under sunglasses if you want the long story. He still says he loves me but doesn't feel right moving home yet. The right "in love" feelings are'nt there. H started new job very close to home two weeks ago so daily contact with ow is nil now. Hoping this will help lift fog and I am trying my hardes to plan A.<P>Here's my problem. Trust. I just can't get the trust back. He swears it is over but I have a hard time believing him. Firstly, I just found out ow address, looked it up on a map book and it is within blocks of the hotels he lived in last year even though he swears he wasn't seeing her anymore. Then why so close. Secondly, when he moved into apt in Sept last year I discovered he and ow coming out of his building even though he said he wasn't seeing her anymore. My intuition tells me that maybe it ended, started, ended, started. . . Maybe now it is finally over but how do I know when he's lied over and over.<P>I just don't get it. Many people on this board have had sp move out so they could be with other person and told their spouses just that. Mine has never told me that. Always says he moved out for him. I truly believe that is a lie. Why does he still lie, is he trying not to hurt me, trying to avoid me losing it and filing for divorce? I don't know which would be worse, having him admit that he was or is still seeing her<BR>or having him continue to lie about it.<P>He still says he is trying. Still says he plans on moving home one day. In the meantime the kids and I suffer with not knowing the truth.<P>I ponder calling the ow and asking her but don't want to open that can of worms. The only way I think I will truly know is by seeing his cell phone bill but those statements are sent to his apt. I could look it up online but don't have his acct no so it won't give me info.<P>Demanding the truth doesn't work. Should I ask to see the phone bill? I'm sure that would be a major lb to him but I'm at my wits end wanting to know the truth. I don't even care about the years prior to discovery, I just want to know about the last year and a half. Am I just being a gullible idiot that jumps to conclusions everytime something out of the ordindary happens.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hoping:<BR><B>Here's my problem. Trust. I just can't get the trust back.</B><P>Well, according to Harley, you shouldn't trust him, so drop that as a concern . Should he move back again and commit to recovering the marriage, you should require a full and open lifestyle, with accounting for his time, and access to his email, phone bills and credit cards.<P>It seems to me that you and he are not at that stage (i.e.: him wanting to move back), so I'm not sure that your energies couldn't be directed somewhere more fruitful. <P>You know he has lied and cheated in the past. Assume the worst. When he approaches you about another reconciliation be ready with the ground rules. <BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Hi Hoping - from one oldtimer to another,<P>I think that although you say the issue is trust, could it be that what is really driving you crazy and causing you to suffer is your focus on trying to understand WHY he is not moving back home and working on the marriage with you. And believe me your feelings of frustration are legitimate and justifiable after all you have been through. But feeling them doesn't mean you have to act on them right now. I guess I just don't think that confirming your suspicion either way will really address trust. This can only be regained IMHO when you begin to experience your spouse behaving in a trustworthy manner - and only over time. And he is not doing that with you yet.<P>I think it is very likely that he saw OW while he was living in hotels and in his apt. Whether it was intense, or dying out or still ongoing is immaterial in a way. (That is not to say that it doesn't hurt intensely -it does - I know.) <P>Seems to me the real issue is that he still has some barrier to returning to you and the family and working on the marriage - you can't really know at this point if it is withdrawal from OW, active involvement with OW, depression - or whatever. You may need to focus only on what you can control - which may mean assessing (with Steve H perhaps or a counselor) your own status and how you can take care of yourself while your H continues to "decide" and how long you will continue to do this. <P>It is not "bad" after many many months to get to a point where you just can't plan A anymore - (I know how long you have been at it already - you are amazing ). What is maybe more damaging to any eventual and potential recovery is not recognizing when you are at that point - because you then focus on trying to control things you just can't and end up making yourself crazy (speaking from experience).<P>Step back if you can Hoping and think about this before acting. Do not call OW or snoop or demand. Again, speaking from experience this doesn't help any. And try as much as you can to bring the focus back to you, and what you need to do to take care of yourself.<P>Hugs,<BR>Starpony

Hoping...from an even older-oldtimer who's struggled right along with you and Starpony with our behavioral triplet husbands.<P>My H never told me when he was seeing her at the time. He tells me now when had been seeing her...when he can remember what was the actuality--and I believe him that sometimes he isn't sure what was real & what was the story he told me.<P>He nearly always told me he wanted the marriage, unless I really pushed, then he sometimes would say he wanted a divorce--he told a lot of people we were divorcing. He never served me papers. As you know, I got to the point where he threatened divorce once too often and I went to the lawyer and served him papers, well, that's part of the <BR>reason, anyway.<P>I think, if your H says he is trying to work on the marriage (my favorite quote "Do or do not do, there is no try"--Yoda) is to respectfully say if that is true, you'd like to see his cell phone bill. If he gets defensive or won't show you or waffles and puts it off, you have your answer. My H was always defensive when he wasn't really wanting the marriage, but wanted me to want it, he'd "throw me a bone" as someone else stated. Now he has voluntarily given me his personal & business email passwords & shows me his cell bill every month--it still goes to his other address, but he even lets me be the first to open it. I view that as a real show of not just "trying" but of "doing".<P>Hoping, the one thing I am sure of, is that if actions do not line up with words, and vice versa, you have to pay attention, it MEANS something.<P>All my best<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Hoping<BR>I haven't much to add to the wise replies here.<BR>I think Lor hit the nail on the head though. Our H's often don't know what really happened. They lied so much that they don't know the truth. I think the only option in that case is to guide towards future honesty.<P>I have seen every receipt, cell bill, piece of paper etc. in the entire 7 year relationship that my H had with Bimbo. I still don't know the truth. I have asked about certain things and received a different answer every time. He doesn't know the truth. I have to accept that.<P>I believe H is starting to see the value of honesty. But it will have to be honesty of the present and future. The past is such a pit of lies that I don't think the reality of it even exists.<P>Can you trust yourself to handle what's happining now and what is to come? I think you can. That is the only trust you need to worry about now.<P>Wassi

MikeC2,<BR>Thanks for the reply. I know I shouldn't be concerned about trusting him yet but I want to. I want to believe what he tells me. <P>Starpony, <BR>Good to hear from another oldtimer. How's your plan B going?<BR>Yes, your probably right. I am going crazy trying to understand why he wont come back. And your probably right, whatever I find out probably wont make me completely trust him yet and it really won't change anything as I want to make this marriage work. I think the barrier is still her. I know I shouldn't call her because if he isn't in contact with her I'm sure she would call and tell him I did call. Don't need to initiate any contact.<P>Post an update so we know how youre doing.<P>Lor, <P>You sound so good and very happy! I wish we could get to that place.<P>As for the cell bill. I feel like that is the only way I'm going to know the truth about her. The truth now and the recent past. I'm not worried about years ago just the last year and a half. I just don't want to look like a gullible fool I guess. He shouldn't get his cake and eat it too. I know that asking for it will be a major lb that's why I wish I had his acct. no and I would just look it up online.<P>I guess I just need to be more patience. I'm hoping that the new job will help. No daily contact. Now he drives 1/2 an hour to work whereas if he lived here it would be 10 minutes. <P>Was Stubborn,<P>Yes I think he is very confused about his stories and all I really want is honesty now. I don't want to know all the gory details of the last six years but just the last year. He says he's trying but I don't really know if he thinks he's trying with me and keeping her on a string also. That's not fair.<P>Thanks for all the replies, it helped me keep my mouth shut for another day.

Hoping, re-read the section on lovebusters and what they are, it isn't based on what irks your spouse, they are very concrete behaviors (I think we all forget or disregard this & use LB as a short hand for when our spouse is angered by something we say--even if it is NOT an actual Harley lovebuster). No Selfish Demands, No Thoughtless Decisions, No Angry Outbursts, & one more about Judgements, but my H has the book at his house...no where does it say keep your mouth permanently shut . If you can keep away from the angry outburst, asking to see his cell phone bill is not automatically a selfish demand.<P>It is also ok to be patient & wait. Just don't let fear be your motivator to do so. The fear won't go away by itself, you have to get to the bottom of it, or forgive the result.<P>And I'd say, too, don't worry about the trust right now. He isn't back in the house. He isn't accountable to you, his actions don't line up with his words...where would your trust for him build from? Trust that YOU will be okay and in your God-given strengths.<P>I think back on what kept Guard out of the house, when the OW was out of his life...and it was multi-level from what he has said. Part was guilt, remorse, he felt he no longer deserved his family (not true). Part was the fantasy, if not of the OW, there was also just the possibilities of the life that is open to a single man and a "fresh" start (well, we all make decisions that send us down one path or another). Part was that he felt I would never love him whole-heartedly again (I do love him and it is my choice to forgive him, seek his forgiveness for my own crap and work on being the wife he needs, am I the "same"?...no, maybe I'll be "better").<P>Hoping, your post brings back so many feelings...the frustration of not knowing what was going on in his head and nothing making any sense, and the days just passing and passing and nothing ever getting any better. The long Plan A had definite, positive results, but what exactly turned Guard's heart? <P>I believe God turned him. If I could, I'd bottle the procedure, and not only dose myself & Guard daily, but I'd order up a round for everyone on this board.<P>At least now, if it all fell apart, I know I have been partnered with my husband again and it is "us" that didn't work. But I don't think it is going to fall apart...ah, hope... <P>Guard & I still aren't in an easy place, but we're slowly diffusing the landmines and removing the rubble. We still bleed from our wounds (gotta quit picking the scabs!) and we grieve at times and fear both the past & for the future. But we realize we are each other's best chance for wholeness and happiness, yet neither of us plan to continue if the other gives up again. <P>And I see my daughters smile again...and I know the damage there is also healing. I pray that for you, Hoping. Even 2 months ago I did not think I would be in this place.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Hi Hoping,<P> Listen to Lor, she is so wise. And Lor, I agree with you totally. <P>Even though we moved to start over my H was withdrawn, was evasive and defensive. It went on for 9mos. ,.......I was at my wits end and found out he was still in contact with OW. <P>Actions speak louder than words and are what you MUST go by. Now, my H is kind, attentive and treats my like he used to before all of this mess.....in fact if I would have been smart I would've known something was going on years ago by his actions. He blamed things on the job etc...... <P>Hang in there, hoping, I think like Lor said wanting to see cell phone bills is NOT a LB in itself.......LU