I guess the question says it all! As I wade through this painful entanglement, the questions slowly seep out and address me. I realize that every woman is different, but really....how much is really needful to answer in detail?<P>I realize that I 'made my bed and must now lie in it"...but I feel like I am walking through a mine-field here. I want to focus on my wife's needs and hurts and fears now. And I am doing my personal grieving and withdrawal in private unknown to her. I just know that once I answer something, whatever that may be, those words and images will be around for a very, very long time. Is there a tactful way of giving her some 'generic truth' without doing futher damage???<P>In other words, what I am wanting to know, is when you ask your spouse questions about the involvement, do you REALLY want to know everything? Or is just general info good enough for you? And WHY would you want details?<P>Help me here, please....even my 'critics' responses are welcome! :-)

NoMas:<P>Get yourself to Steve Harley. NOW!!!<P>You should be focusing on "what your wife" needs to know, as opposed to taking polls here. And the fact that...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am doing my personal grieving and withdrawal in private unknown to her<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>...is bad news. You are depriving your wife of a chance to build up your lovebank by helping you through withdrawal.<P>You really, really, really should be in counseling at this point. Hopefully your wife will go along too. <P>Have you thought that your desire to spare your wife pain may be part of the behavior set that got you into this prediciment in the first place? You need to be honest, about everything. You certainly should negotiate with your wife concerning how much "detail" she wants/needs to hear---but these are decisions that you must be making together, per the POJA.

At the moment that I ask for info, whether it is good for me to know or not, I want the entire truth.<P>But, I also realize the entire truth is often times very painful. I think the willingness to tell me the truth is more important than the details.<P>I do know the details have given me images that I've had to deal with, and it can be overwhelming, but kinda like childbirth - the pain goes away. It just takes time and love.

I think K is right. I think you were suffering as a result of not wanting to add negatives to your wife's life - when she was going to school and that left you vulnerable. I think the way to avoid this right now, and not repeat the mistakes of protecting your wife at your expense is to start with some good coaching with harley's.

NoMas,<BR>My husband did give me as much information as I wanted, and I was/am haunted by images, places, etc. I hated my crockpot because he cooked her supper using it--the situation gets that weird.<P>I think when I was asking a million questions, I basically wanted to know from my H:<BR>do you love me?<BR>can I be the love of your life again?<BR>will you stay with me?<BR>will you give everything you have to this marriage?<BR>will you stop contacting her?<BR>will you stop thinking/dreaming/loving her?<P>I'm not sure, but I wonder if he had addressed these issues if I would have stopped digging for details. With me, probably not. The good thing about details is that I know pretty much everything a person on the outside of a relationship can know and I don't feel any hidden "shadows" from their relationship, the bad thing is I resented every bit of attention, time, and fun he had with her.<P>Is someone working on forgiveness with your wife? A pastor, counselor? Unforgiveness does relate strongly to anger, resentment, bitterness, depression.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

I only REALLY wanted to know:<P>Do you love me?<BR>Are you sure you don't love her?<BR>Will you ever contact her again?<BR>Is it definitely over with her?<BR>Are you positive this marriage is what you want?<P>The images that haunt me are details the OW gave me (unsolicited by me). She told me in part to hurt me and it worked. I would never have asked my H the things she told me because I didn't want to know. I think some people think they want to know but don't. It's like watching horrible images of a plane crash on TV. You know it will upset you, but you keep watching anyway.<P>To Lor - I would throw the crockpot away! I was so relieved when H told me he was getting a new car. Not because I wanted a new car, but because I knew she'd been in it.

I felt the same sort of silly feelings, such has hating a crockpot!<P>I despise the couch that was in this house when H brought OW home to it! I hope I never see it again! (I gave it to MIL, MIL gave it to BIL, BIL gave it to H's X!)<P>I despise red cars that have blondes in it! I despise the bar, town get togethers, and at one point the state of MN! <P>I hate infidelity movies, I cannot stand for my husband to talk to ANY blondes (and his kids are blonde)!!!! <P>TNT

As I have said to my husband - 'just the facts maam, just the facts'..... <P>That is a concequence for my husband this time, I want ALL of the facts - no matter what. But for me - this was it. I have told our counselor if my husband can't or won't tell me the truth - then I will leave him this time - I make no gaurantees that if he DOES tell me the truth - I will stay - that is the consequence of his actions and he created this situation. <P>I feel that if he tells me the truth and knows he has to do that from now on - (he first needs to learn to tell the truth - he a compulsive liar) it will be less likely to happen in the future, but without the truth to every questions I ask - I won't go on in this recurrent cycle for the rest of my life - it's too short...

Dear NoMas:<P>We want our questions answered honestly, concisely, and to the point. No more, no less.<P>If it helps, try to think of it as being on the witness stand. Personally, I think it is best to offer a simple "yes" or "no" answer to start with. If your wife needs more, she will most likely ask for details.<P>Here is a few examples of what I asked:<P>Q: Did you sleep with her?<BR>A. Simple Yes or No will do here (to begin with).<P>Now, for some, if answer is YES, your wife may want more details. For example, I wanted to know approx how many encounters, where they occurred, and what excuse he gave me on the nights he was with her. I, however, did NOT want to know what positions they used, if he enjoyed it, was she *better* than me, etc. Nor did I want to hear, "Yes buts"..... such as "Yes, but the sex wasn't as good as ours," or "Yes, but the sex meant nothing to me."<P>EXAMPLE TWO:<P>Q: Did you buy her gifts?<BR>A. Again, I believe to simply respond with YES or NO.<P>In this situation, if answer is YES, I would want to know: what was purchased, where, how much?<P>-------------------------------------------<P>Did some of the details hurt? Most definitely. So why would I want details?---For me, I didn't want to feel as though the OW had any special *connection* to my H that I didn't know about. I wanted him to share certain things with me so that I could be a bigger part of him--so that I could feel special and important--as if he was giving me the *advantage* of knowing more about him than OW did. <P>Hoping this makes some sense to you! <P>Peace to you and your wife, ~Marie

Thank you so much for asking, Nomas. I feel flattered that you would come here asking how to help give your W peace of mind. I can only speak for myself. I don't want to know every detail about the EMR. I know what happens during sex, I'm a big girl. I don't even want to go there. That's a topic best left untouched except for the need-to-know areas that would pertain to my health. These are the things that I would want to know about my H's relationship with the OW:<P>1. When, where, and how did you meet her?<BR>2. Who introduced you to her? (if applicable)<BR>3. Did you sleep together? If so, were you *always* safe about it? (read: ir oral sex took place, was a condom or dental dam always used)<BR>4. What public places did you go together? (so I'll know which ones to avoid)<BR>5. Did you buy her any gifts? If so, what were they, and when?<BR>6. Which of our mutual friends and which of your friends know about your relationship with the OW?<BR>7. Did OW have any kind of STD that you knew of (read: does she have herpes)?<BR>7. When did the sexual contact/relationship end?<BR>8. What is the current level of contact you have with the OW, if any?<P>But ... the most important and telling question I would ask would be: <P>9. Would you be willing to follow Dr. Harley's instructions regarding severing contact, permanently, by writing the OW a letter which I approve? <P>If my H did not do this, I would know that the affair was still alive on some level, and that he was either fibbing about his level of contact, or planned to have contact with her sometime in the future. I'm sure you already know this, Nomas, but any level of contact is too much for a betrayed wife. Even if you are not having sex with the OW, to your W, the affair will still be going on in an emotional sense, until contact is completely severed.<P>belld

For some weird reason the way my H explained things to me helped me.<P>When I asked for details, and they were pretty harsh...sexual info ect...he did, without realizing what he was doing, something that helped me.<P>Every time he would describe something he would relate it/compare it to me.<P>She was shorter than me.<BR>Her hair was about the same as mine.<BR>She was a walker, same as me.<BR>Her breasts are smaller than mine.<BR>She was smart, but not smarter than me.<P>It was a weird way to go about it, but the fact that I was in this descriptions hurt a lot less.<P>Maybe he's smarter than I thought. <P>oh yeah, he also said she would not really stand out in a crowd. I loved that one.<P>allison

NoMas:<P>You can already see there is a wide variety in what people want. Personally, I wanted to know everything in excruciating detail. But that was me.<P>I wholeheartedly agree with K, as long as you change "needes to know" to "wants to know."<P>Let your wife be your guide. Don't withdraw from her. Lean on her. Be her shoulder to cry on and let her be yours. <P>Good luck to you. --HBC

NoMas,<P>I knew that he moved in with her and they were having sex. That was enough for me.<P>Now I don't care to know anything about him or her.<P>Mitzi

Gosh...I really appreciate these replies. They really are helpful. <P>Allison...I just had to smile on yours! :-)<BR>Personally, I would want to avoid the 'comparing' aspect...not sure it would help matters...just wouldn't want my wife to think that this had to do with 'comparing' her with someone else. But thanks for the reply! :-)<P>I have a question for "K".....<BR> ...not wanting to sound 'smart' or 'provacative' here....but your profile indicates you have nearly 2700 posts here. The one on this thread was # 2698.<P>Was that a misprint? I am dumbfounded...do you work as a moderator or counselor for MB here? How in the world does one accumulate that many posts???? I thought I was wearing out my welcome here with just over 200. I hope you don't mind me asking...I've wondered how much is 'to much' to be on these forums.<BR>:-)<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited July 19, 2000).]

Ouch! Some of these questions are hard to answer. For me this is one of the really painful parts of the recovery. It is the time you come face to face with your deeds.<P>I have often wondered too, how much to say - how much is too much? Once those images are in your mind, they may haunt for a very long time. From the varied responses, it is clear that it is an individual thing and our spouse must be our guide. <P>I try and answer my husband's questions truthfully, but try not to give more than he is asking for. Lor's response was helpful to me - there might be something more behind the questions - something more he is really asking. Such as, "do you love me", "will you stay with me", "how do you feel about me"...<P>Just reading all your questions and responses here shows me your side of the pain. It makes me very sad.

It has only been three weeks since my husband has told me about his 8 month affair...so we are in the middle of the questions still. For me...I need to know everything. My questions are getting more and more specific. I would suggest you tell your wife exactly what she asks no matter how much it may hurt her. In the long run, knowing that you would keep something else from her would hurt more. For example: my husband only bought her a couple of things, one was a cd with "their song" on it. Well..he thought it best if he didn't tell me what the song was since it is a popular song and whenever I hear it I would think of the affair. Well for the next week or so I couldn't listen to the radio without "wondering" if that was their song playing. I ended up telling him I needed to know (the song was "Amazed" by Lonestar) and now I am much more able to deal with it. I wanted to know very particular personal things because my mind was creating much worst images. For me..knowing helps me to control all the thoughts that are constantly going through my mind. My advice (from a completely personal standpoint) is to tell her what she wants to know. I can tell when my husband isn't quite telling me everything to try to spare my feelings..so I just keep asking more and more specific questions. As I find out things it helps me to feel like finally he is starting to be honest with me. Good luck.

Hopeful,<P>I think knowing the details, such as "their song" or "their restaurant" might help the two of you avoid triggers. For example, if they always ate at a certain little cafe, you would know *never* to suggest going to that cafe - well, at least for a very long time after the EMR ended. Similarly, now that you know the song, you can always turn off the radio or change the station when it comes on and you are alone - and particularly when you are with your H. Knowing more of the details helps you avoid those triggering situations.<P>For me, one of the most difficult aspects of this, now that my H and I are separated, are the people we both know who are what you might call distant acquaintances, who have gotten wind through the grapevine that my H was living with the OW at one time. I have to field questions like, "How long did you know about them?" "How did they meet, do you know?" and other questions. This is painful for me, because I cannot answer them - my H has not given me that information yet. So I have to look like an idiot and say, "I don't know." Well, what my H doesn't realize is that by *not* giving me all of the information I need to know, he is making himself out to be the bad guy here. When I say, "I don't know," our mutual acquaintances tsk-tsk and give this look of disapproval, as though to say, "Why are you still with that guy?!!" It's tough.<P>I feel as though if I knew more about the situation, I could hold my head up. If someone asks me a question that is completely off the wall, or if they made a comment that was not correct (you know how gossip tends to mutate), I will be able to say to them, "No, that part of the story is not true." As for the rest of the questions, I would be able to calmly reply, "I know everything about my H and the OW. He has told me everything. I'd rather not discuss it, if that's okay."<P>I suppose I could do that now, however, it would be too much of a lie. I'm not a very good liar.<P>belld

NoMas:<P>That's no misprint. I've cut down considerably on my participation here, but I still do post.<P>I came to MB's forum shortly after it was instituted (I joined in September of 98). By that time I had nearly a full year of counseling with Steve Harley. I had dealt with a huge number of "aspects" that everyone here deals with (internet affair, EA, PA, Plan A, Plan B, poor marital behaviors, kids, fence-sitting spouses, pregnancy from affair...), and by the time I came here, I was pretty much done with MY issues. The affair was over, and we were into recovery. I came to help support others through this process, and as someone who had been coached by Steve, I felt that I could help give some insight to the process.<P>So, I'm not a moderator (I considered it). I'm not Steve---although he's coached me plenty (and generally thinks I do a good job here), I'm always more comfortable referring people to him for counseling. He is terrific---the only bad thing I can say about MB counseling is that sometimes they're running "behind" in the schedule, and your appointment will be delayed. Otherwise, it's effective, convenient, cheap (relatively speaking), and a great investment.<P>Too much---I'm not sure. Sometimes I think I'm close. I haven't posted any "original" stuff for some time, and I get tired of posting the same old "party-line". But there aren't a huge number of "party-line" posters on the forum right now---and I'm a firm believer in that following that line is what helped me save my marriage. It's easy to see that when you're on the other side---but when you're involved, it's much harder to get that straight.<P>Now, gotta go work at that day job...

<BR>Nomas<BR>No matter what your wife wants to know tell her the truth. Not what you think she should hear, not a twisted version. If you don't give her complete honesty in answer to her questions, you may as well look her straight in the face and tell her that you don't think she is strong enough to handle the truth. <BR>Lies, secrets and twisting of the truth are demeaning. They give the message that you don't have any respect for the person asking the questions.<P>K<BR>I just want to thank you once again for the time that you take to help others.<BR>Since coming here avery long time ago, I have seen you help many people. It is obvious that your only intention is to try to help. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. The number of your posts only points to your giving nature...especially since the posts were all in support of others.

I'd like to specifically address the question of "Why" I wanted to know all the details.<P>I wanted to know everything. Every single detail about every word, every phone call, every meeting, every email, every glance, every touch. I wanted to know initially because my W was so adamant about keeping everything a secret. My thinking was that by exposing everything to the light it would be less alluring to her and that she'd be less likely to enjoy her clandestine meetings after she knew I knew exactly what she was doing.<P>Every secret they shared with each other and kept from me formed a bond between them and a barrier against me. I wanted the bond to be broken and the barrier destroyed. I wasn't foolish enough to think that telling me the secrets would form any kind of a bond between my W and I, but I hoped that after all the players had the same knowledge that at least the playing field would be level. To the extent that she opened up to me, it worked as I had hoped. But there is still much that she kept from me and I've given up hope that she will ever share those secrets with me. If she had been willing at the beginning, we might have healed. As it is now we will never ever be what I consider a "couple" again. We might learn to get along and parent the kids civilly but I don't believe it will ever be possible to fully reconcile and trust again because I know there are still secrets.<P>In After the Affair, the author states specifically that it is the betrayed spouse that gets to decide what questions need to be answered. K said it well when he said that you should be answering her questions, not wondering which questions a bunch of other people think you should answer. It's your wife that matters here. Answer her questions. Offer additional information if necessary to ensure that she understands the whole truth. No white lies, no omissions, no half-truths.<P>I've followed your postings for as long as you've been here, NoMas. In my opinion, K hit the nail right on the head with his comment that your desire to spare your wife pain is the very thing that put you (and your poor wife) where you are now. You've still got a chance to do it right, though you probably don't have many lifelines left. You just polled the audience...time to phone a friend. I'd suggest the Harleys. I've never talked to Steve, but Jennifer helped me tremendously.<P>Slightly Sane<BR><p>[This message has been edited by o2bsane (edited July 19, 2000).]