After reading certain posts here, I can understand the anger that the betrayed feel. I have been in a similar situation myself. However, I am also a betrayer, but I'll be damned if I will be referred to as a whore, slut or any other negative slur. I made several mistakes in my life; some more than others. I don't discount that my behavior was something less desired, but it happened for reasons that "I" felt were valid at that time. <BR>I didn't intentionally seek the relationships. I didn't wreck the marriage by myself. I worked hard at trying to save my marriage and stayed because I thought it was the right thing to do for the kids. I know now that it was not. For some folks it takes several tries before they understand and get it right. In my case, it took both my spouse and I many falls before we decided to review our errors and find solutions if we wanted to save our relationship.<BR>Relationships are a very complexed entity in which even the individuals involved have problems sometimes understanding. We do our best to make our relationships work. For some, it works great. For others, it takes years before they come to common ground that they both can accept. And still for some, it will never happen. <BR>As someone mentioned earlier about cookie cutter images. I don't think we can cookie cut relationships and bylaw the dialogue or behavior of that relationship despite what others say. Each person and their partner establish the atmosphere of their household be it by the vows that they declared or unspoken. Be it right or wrong.<BR>Each one of us at some point in time as violated our vow, the law, the code by our actions such as exceeding the speed limit, ignoring our partners on the simple things, ignoring our children, gossiping about your neighbor, betrayal and countless other items. However, that does not make us bad people. We learn, sometimes the hard way that we need to make changes, stop hurting others and ourselves and make amends. <BR>And then there are those who will never learn because they don't care to learn, issues that they cannot resolve, or feelings of remorse has never been taught to them. There are folks who will never take responsibility for their actions in any given circumstance. I cannot speak for them and I also cannot judge them either. <BR>To the betrayed: I do understand your anger as I stated earlier. I sympathize for what happened to you. My prayers and thoughts are with you if you accept. <BR>I am not asking for your forgiveness or giving you an excuse for my actions. That is between me, my spouse and my Lord. As for the OM(s), I didn't hold a gun to their heads. They are adults. They could have turned the other way, but for reasons known to them only, they didn't.<BR>But please do not refer to me (a betrayer) as a slut, whore or the like. I am a good person who made several mistakes that I can't go back and fix, but work on building a better future for my relationship.<BR>Now I will probably be raked over the coals for this post. So be it. I understood the language and dialogue as referring to all betrayers as one big negative slur and that is not necessarily true. A lot of us do have morals, remorse, struggling to understand what's going on inside and what went wrong on the outside. Don't be so quick to pass judgement. <BR>If I misinterrpreted the posts, my apologies.<BR>

Sobeit:<BR> My personal opinion is that there is no need to use negative names for either those who stray or those who do not. Both are just people in pain. There are endless subtle variations, but it is all pain.<P>I am very sorry for your pain and hope things are going better.<P>Hugs--<P>Kathi

Hi Sobeit,<P>I think I wrote something very similiar once... and yes, this caught my eye because I've been called the same.<P>You are right about so much of what you said, but you'll have a hard time convincing someone who's never been in the betrayer's shoes. I was a betrayed-only person 14 yrs. ago, and I hated the OW(s)... and yes, I thought they were whores. Then I became an OW years later, and boy did I regret the awful things I said and did to those women!<P>You know what you did to save your marriage, how you carried guilt and remorse, and how you wish you wouldn't have been an OW. It <B>is</B> between you, your H, and God. <P>Hold your head high!!! And no, my dear and beautiful sobeit, you are not a whore.<P>~Sheryl<P>

Sobeit,<P>I'm not a whore either - and neither is my H something equally derogatory for his mistakes. <P>I find it interesting that the term is applied to (in general) women, when infidelity is an equal opportunity club - as if to suggest that women's "sins" are somehow by far the greater for straying.<P>I'm in complete agreement that name calling, and something as hurtful as that term is almost *never* fruitful. I imagine that it comes from extreme pain, and for that I can dearly empathize.<P>Hugs to you, and all of us experiencing pain through the mistakes that led us here.<P>Delilah

As Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I don't think anyone can claim to be so perfect that they have never made a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes.<P>You are right, sobeit. It is between you, your H and God. <P>I haven't read everything on the thread you are referring to but the posts I did read stated that they USED TO think of the OWs as whores, but are now seeing that they are just human. People who made mistakes. I hope people will take that more compassionate view. <P>sobeit, you are human. You made mistakes. Haven't we all?

Okay, I feel a need to respond to this as someone who has referred to the OW in my case as a whore. Yes, it is a horrible, horrible term. And there is just not one that fits her better. That is not to say that the term fits YOU or everyone who strays from their marriage. I don't know which post you are referring to that has bothered you. I guess I should do some more reading... I personally have never meant to refer to all betraying women as whores. That would be ridiculous. I AM referring to the OW in my case as a whore. She IS a whore. I will not refer to her as someone "who is in pain" or "who has a lot of problems" although those things are undoubtedly true as well. I think to expect women who have been devastated and destroyed by infidelity to NOT view the OW in a negative light is unrealistic. I hope you do not take personally remarks made that have nothing to do with you as a person. I have a close friend who I recently found out cheated on her husband and while I do not think she used the best judgment, I have never thought of her as a whore. She isn't. The OW in my case IS. I won't pretend she's not. Everyone makes mistakes, that is true. And I surely have made my share. It probably is not mature, loving, and certainly not Christ-like for me to call her that. And I wouldn't to her face or in public. I am in a lot of pain and I am calling her that anonymously over the internet. There is a difference. I certainly would not want to hurt anyone's feelings here and would not jump to judge their actions. I don't know these situations. I DO know what was done to me and what was done to my children. So until I grow up or don't hurt sooo badly anymore, I will continue to type her in as "The Whore". Please be assured I am referring to her and only her.

Sobiet, so elequently put! And I agree with you completely. <P>On this board, there are mainly two types of people. Betrayed and Betrayer. (Mind you there are some here who are neither...)<P>When one speaks of the OW as being a Whore... naturally the "female" betrayers here take offense. I know I certainly do! <P>NO ONE here has the right to assume anything about another without first knowing or learning the story behind them. <P>NO ONE has the right to JUDGE anyone else on this forum or anywhere. I would think that you should be more worried about yourselves being judged. We're all in the same boat where being judged is concerned. <P>And we will ALL be judged by a higher power. And in as far as I can tell, He's not posting on this board!<P>I think it is WAY PAST TIME, to rid this board of the hurtful slurs written in some of the posts.<P>I agree that there is much pain for the betrayed. But, if everyone works together here, there is much to be learned from both the betrayer and the betrayed. We all come here for support. Why else would we be here?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited July 18, 2000).]

Sobeit,<P>I will probably not score many "brownie" points for what I have to say. And I am not sure any one will even be able to understand what I am trying to say.<P>The OW in "our" lives....I have called a whore. I still see her as a whore. She does this all the time. My ex was certainly not her first notch on the bed post and he will not be the last.<P>As a hurt "human being", watching our children cry and hurt more than anyone whould ever know....it is easy to cast the blame on someone else.<P>Then I read posts from Betrayers....and I feel sorry for them.....understand...everything. But these are "human beings" understanding what they did wrong....wanting to make it right.<P>The OW in "my" life does not feel she did anything wrong. She does not feel that "our" children are suffering. She sees it as "oh well". I do not think of her as a lost soul.....someone who is confused. I see her as someone who fully knew what was going on, as my ex did also. She also had a choice. She also convinced my ex to leave his family....not necessarily for her but just because "he" was not happy.<P>She hurt more than me.....she hurt my children, my family and countless friends.<P>People who do this, and feel nothing is wrong with it are whores. People who do this, make a mistake, learn from that mistake are not whores....they are simply people who made a bad choice or a hurtful choice.<P>I don't know....I have never betrayed. I have never walked in those shoes. Maybe if I did, I would think differently.<P>I am not trying to say hurtful things....but right now, watching all the pain and confusion in my childrens lives....I do not think straight all the time. I think with my motherly heart.<P>Nancy

sobeit -<P>Right on! I can't tell you how many times I have tried to redeem myself to my H. His name calling was like one more slap to my already damaged pride, one more way to rub salt in the wound. He and many others act as if there is some truth to their words, reasons for their hatred of me. I long for the day I get to pick up and move far away from this place ( in 1 yr hopefully)so that we can be away from his foul mouthed opinionated friends and he can learn to treat me like I deserve to be treated - no name calling. <P>Although he has made the same mistake, I have never resorted to calling him the usual terms women call men - dogs. It's bad enough to be in pain than to have others inflict more of it on you. That saying we had as kids somehow isn't always right - sometimes words do hurt more than sticks and stones.<P>Vee

Hi sobeit,<P>I did call the OW a slut, but later felt God was leading toward forgiveness and I sent her an apology for the name calling, etc. It was just wrong.<P>It does bother me some that she refuses to acknowledge any wrongdoing, but even given that, my name calling was as much a sin as her relationship with my H. (Hard as that is to accept cause I think most of us would like to categorize our indiscretions wouldn't we?)<P>Hope you are doing OK.<P>periwinkle<P>

Maybe this post make you all betrayers angry and hate me but this is how I feel.<BR>Maybe nobody should be called by these terms, whore, slut, etc..<BR>But I still feel OW in my situation is. She may be hurt right now but she didn't try to stop, she contines to see my H, and at the end she gets upset because my H tells her he still loves me. I don't feel she's trying to learn anything from her mistakes(so is my H), looks like she's waiting for my H's feelings towards me will disappear so my H will be hers. According to my H she feels bad. Bad about what? Destroying our marriage? Or making me suicidal?<BR>This A may be an addiction, but she didn't try to do the right thing at all(and this is not the first time for her either). For me she's a whore.<P>Betrayers who come here are trying to do the right things, even if it's hard thing to do you are trying and asking for a help. I don't do name calling to you. You are trying and I can see that.<P>Right now I'm not interested to save my marriage but still I will never wish that this relationship between my H and OW will work out.<P>Maybe because I was never be a betrayer so I can't understand well about betrayers' minds. sorry if this post upsets you.<P>MF

The point is this...<P>It is a matter of common courtesy and good manners. You don't go to a gathering where there are mixed races of people and start telling racial jokes or speaking of someone you don't like using racial slurs... it isn't acceptable and it isn't right.... so why do it here?<P>I think that common courtesy should apply here as well... and I'm pretty certain, that is what they expect on this forum anyway.<P>Everyone knows what the betrayed thinks and feels about the OP. And we all understand WHY you would feel that way. <P>Sadly, another definition for the word "Whore" refers to your spouse as well as the OP... <P>verb intransitive<P> 1 : to have unlawful sexual intercourse as or with a whore<P>If you still love your spouse, perhaps you might want to think again before using the word... Just a thought...<P><BR>

Yes I guess my H is whore too.<BR>I've never used these terms on this board before. But at the same time I'm not against people who use them because I know they are hurt and they need to express their feelings.. sometimes they might be hurtful but at the time they need to do that.<BR>At the same time I totally understand about what you said, about the racial stuff and yes you are right, we can say the same thing here too.<BR>So I apologize, for saying ow in my situation is a whore. It was inappropriate.

Hi Sobeit,<P>I'm sorry that you've been hurt from our posts referring to the OP in those terms. Words are very powerful and I'm sorry. They were not directed at you or any other OP on this board.<P>They were, however, directed at my H's OW and I do want to say that in my case, when I call the OW a name, believe me she deserves it. I know all the things she has said to my H regarding her disgusting sexual antics and she deliberately used sex as a tool to manipulate him. Leaving him messages of how she's playing with herself, with very very very explicit info of what she's doing to herself and going to do or has done to him. I am not exaggerating when I tell you it made me sick to my stomache, some of the things were hard core S & M and some involving human waste. She also slept w/other men, some of them my H's friends to make my H jealous and voice paged H to tell him what she did to those other men. Okay, enough said.<P>Then there's her verbal abuse involving me, which I have posted about again and again ... So If and when I call this OW a name, whore or slut, I feel justified in doing so. By definition she and my H have both earned the titles.<P>I hope God won't send me to hell for feeling this way.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 18, 2000).]

My H basically referred to me as a slut on a few occasions right after he found out... it was like he had forgotten the person that I really am. I think that he still finds me much less of a good person than before. I can feel it emanating from him. On more than one occasion even NOW I get the feeling from him that he is martyring himself by staying with me. He feels like he is so much a better person than me and I have let him down. <P>It's extremely painful. I am hoping this will fade. I am not a slut or a whore or any of the other derogatory slurs. I am a good person who made a terrible mistake and I just want to feel like the person that he used to think I was. I believe it is making me depressed.<P>Anyway, yes, sobeit - you are correct - while I can understand the hurt of the betrayed, I feel an unfair label is being placed on those of us who truly care and are trying to repair our marriages.

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Hi, Sobeit. I've felt the same thing you've written many times when reading on this forum, so I could have written that post you just did. I realize the pain the betrayed are going through, I know the pain well, I've been through it too. It's much easier to vent against the OP than your spouse it seems. I also realize this is a place of support, and completely understand the need to vent. <P>This is the only place I feel a division between what I did, and what I am. You are a special person that has so much insight and much to offer. I've seen it in your posts. I know I've come here solely to obtain advice and help my marriage. There's much wisdom here, maybe we can take the good with the not so good? <P>Just wanted to let you know I'm right there with ya, and understand exactly what you're saying.

Sobeit,<P>You are not a whore. <P>many people use this board to vent, to try to understand, make themselves "whole" again. They are told to vent here...use this as their safe place. That is what many did. They vented.....called the OP names, cried, laughed and offered a helping hand.<P>If someone called you a whore in this "safe place" I am just as offended as you are. But if someone called the OP a whore...they were venting....trying to tell people their story...express their hurts, pains, and confusion.<P>Not everyone is on their "best" behavior when they are depressed, feeling low. They do not "choose" words for someone elses benefit when they are venting.<P>Again, I know I have never called anyone on this board a whore, but I feel bad if someone did.<P>Nancy

Rose,<P>No, you are not a whore. And you are not a slut.<P>You are a person who feels remorse and pain for some mistakes that you made. You are a person who is trying to make things better for yourself. You are a person who shares kind words with anyone else here in pain. You are a beautiful person.<P>Pain makes people lash out and vent. I read posts by betrayed and betrayer here and feel the pain on both sides. Not every betrayer can be considered a whore or any other nasty word. Personally, I don't feel any anger when I read posts by people who stray. I don't see them as just an OP or WS. I see them as human beings.<P>Many hugs to you,<BR>Mitzi

Here's the thing, as I see it... if this is a place to vent, a safe place, and what we say is taken as just words we use when we are hurt, then let's turn it around and see something:<P>The betrayed spouse of my ex-OM patheticly tried to save her marriage.<P>One sentence. I didn't use cuss words, nor was I talking about any betrayed spouse here. You tell me, does this upset you, as a betrayed spouse? It does me! I have been betrayed by my stbx several times. This sentence implies that betrayed spouses are pathetic. This implies that *I* was pathetic for wanting to save my marriage.<P>See what I mean? Words carry weight, and they can sting - in fact, they can destroy. <P>