to have good feelings for my h, to believe in him, feel safe with him, feel loved by him.<P>Maybe it is just another bump in the ride...<P>It is sooo cold outside (I am still overseas with him), somewhere in the teens, he is working at a local office, and I am thinking...<P>It seems after we are done analyzing ourselves, our relationship, and reading all the books, we must still live and wait to see what happens.<P>I honestly believe I have done all there was to do to set the stage for a new marriage. I have planted and watered, will something beautiful grow??<P>For any who don't know, we are in recovery and doing well.<P>We recently had one of those awesome points of connection, I can't describe it except to say it was magical. And since then, we have not LB'd, been doing ok, it's just that there were a couple of unexpected effects.<P>It triggered him to think of OW, since he had those types of feelings for her. It made me wonder if that is the most we can hope for, an occasional touching of our souls.<P>I believe he never was in-love with me, it wasn't the fog of the affair. He says he had those feelings for me early in our courtship, but lost them even before we married. So why did he marry me? Wouldn't I have been better off with someone who truly loved and valued me?<P>And I believed I was in-love with him. But not because he made these great deposits to my love bank. There was never actually a time I felt loved and treasured by him. It was weird. I rejected the boyfriends that were too good to me. I mistook his not bending over to meet my needs as a sign of strength...<P>I did not do a grea job of meeting his needs, but I always loved him, wanted him to be happy, even at the expense of my own happiness. He was a good man, but he never reciprocated those feelings.<P>When he first confessed the affairs, it was enough that he wanted to stay because it was the right thing to do. I could not ask for more since he could not give more.<P>We lived our lives based on what was right and our commitment. (He too except for the last two years). I have learned that it is not enough. Feelings ARE important. I want to be loved and treasured for who I am, and to feel the same for him.<P>So we are not trying to recapture something we lost. We are trying to find those feelings for the first time. It is only by following the Harley plan that we have gotten this far. But the question remains, can it be? We have always been so good as a team, in the side by side, but not face to face.<P>If Harley is right, and I believe he is, we could find love with almost anyone if we follow the plan. So I want it to be with each other. For years, I thought he just was not capable of really loving, it was the way he was. The affair proved me wrong. He can, but can he have it with me?<P><p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited July 18, 2000).]

Hi Schizzo...<P>Wow....the 'teens', eh? I am sweltering in 100+ degree heat where I am. (And I'm not talking about my marriage conflict, either!)<P>You know...your title about 'longing'....I think we all are...and do 'long...to be loved". <P>One of the things I came to realize at my retreat/counseling, was that I had let my love-relationship with God...grow stale and lukewarm. I kept thinking it was maybe one or two bad decisions, or 'wrong turns' that led me down the path I took. It wasn't. It was a series of little things...that just grew and took me further away. <P>I also realized I was expecting my wife, my "OW-friend" and such...to fill a vacum in my my heart that only God could fill. It wasn't fair to them. <P>I agree with you though...that you can have more of those magical moments with your husband. Sure, the memories will compete with those...at least for awhile maybe. Did he, by the way, feel like it was a 'magical' time of 'connecting' as well?<P>How long have you been married?<P>Hey...do me a favor...go outside today, and take a deep breath of that frosty air for me, and if possible, throw a snowball for me.<P>Take care<P>

NoMas,<P>Sorry, cold but no snow. We are leaving tonight for another city, maybe a bit warmer? Am rolling with the travel plans.<P>While certainly not perfect, I don't feel I've strayed from God at all. But there is a vacuum, a loneliness that only people can fill. I wrote before how Adam was in perfect communion with God in a perfect world (before sin), and still God said it was not good he should be alone.<P>So to try to clarify more, I am and have always felt lonely. My mother and father were (and are) not there for me, ever. It's a long, sad story and not worth getting into. At my lowest point in this mess I wanted to end my life. I didn't want to be so alone anymore, but I couldn't do that to my dear little ones.<P>So while I agree our relationship with God is very important, He did not intend us to have all our needs directly met by Him. I hope noone takes this as sacrilegious. I say it with the deepest attempt at understanding His ways.<P>You see, I was single and a dedicated Christian all through my teens and twenties, so I waited until marriage to seek the fulfillment of my needs. I felt lonely at night, the need for affection, conversation, sex...God apparently intended those to be met in a monogamous relationship.<P>I'm musing today on just how much I've been missing in that relationship, but I think we can find it. I don't think one person can take away all my loneliness, but it could be foundational to my life. I can build same sex friendships (which I've wrongly neglected) around it...

It's at times like this, I think we need to analyze our choices carefully.<P>If you are not getting out of the marriage what you long for, what can you do?<P>Right now you are doing everything you can do and that is great.<P>However, if you STILL don't feel what you are yearning to feel, THEN what are you going to do?<P>In my own life I call this the "No Big Stick" problem that I struggle with now and then. Sometimes it really bums me out, because I know and my H knows that I will not leave the marriage. I will not break up my family. On the bad days it feels like I'm stuck or settling.<P>It was my choice that I married my H. H really hasn't changed (although the dating and honeymoon period masked his emotioanl detatchment). I am just yearning for things I do not have, but I am also taking what I do have for granted. <P>All jobs have good points and bad points, all people do and all relationships do.<P>Can you think of ways how his basic emotional structure benefits your relationship? In my marriage, I never have to worry about moodiness with my H. He's pretty much a straight line, rarely angry or grumpy, rarely joyous or demonstrative. I would crumble if I had a H that yelled or was verbally abusive.<P>As much as I yearn for emotional closeness, I also value my space. My H has never taken issue with anything I have chosen to pursue or not to pursue. He encourages me to do what I want. I see many marriages where the spouses are "joined at the hip" and maybe I am speaking out of envy, but that would eventually drive me crazy!<P>I'm kind of reminded of that old song. You can't always get what you want, you can't always get what you want, you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes...you get what you need.<P>Take care...you might feel better when you see some sunshine and feel some warmth. That always helps me!<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by FaithHopeLove (edited July 18, 2000).]

schizzo-<P>I feel much the same as you do. <P>I don't think my H and I ever really had a "lovey, dovey I treasure you" kind of relationship either. Not before we were married even. I too mistook his standoffishness as strength. Boy, was I wrong. It was a huge, huge weakness in his soul. In counseling he is learning a lot about himself and what has made him the way he is. I think he is learning to "feel" for the first time in life.<P>He told me the other day to try to bear with him as he is learning how to become a human being. It's pretty scary, but at least he realizes it. My point is this... Just because he thinks he had feelings for the OW doesn't mean they were truly real feelings. You said you have thought that he is not capable of loving but the affair proved you wrong. Are you sure about that?<P>There is a book by Schaumberg called False Intimacy. It has a lot to do with sexual addiction but may help. It rings so true with my H and his intimacy issues. It would be worth checking out. It might apply to your H as well.<P>I would quote you something from it but can't find it at the moment...<P>Anyway, I am sorry you are having a rough time. I'll be thinking about you.

I am now checking from another computer in another country. We had quite an adventure last night, but that is another story.<P>FHL - Thank-you. I don't know, I think I would kinda like to be ¨joined at the hip¨. He gives me more space than I want. Last night, for instance, we finished dinner at 12:30 am (yes!) and I jokingly mentioned going to the casino in the hotel. He told me to go ahead! I guess I should be glad he trusts me so much.<P>I don't know quite what to say about never leaving the marriage. I sometimes wonder if I would really do it when push comes to shove, but I have been saying all along that we should part as friends if we don´t find the love we are looking for.<P>Funny thing is the one part (sex) that brought us together during the toughest times is NOW being affected by our emotions.<P>Dead Inside - Thanks for your comments. I will definitely check out the book when I get back to the US (should be tomorrow). It does sound like it may describe my h.<P>If you find it, I would appreciate the quote. He said he wants to talk tonight about developmental issues with women. He admits the affairs were not about sex. He was trying to find emotional closeness and doesn´t know how. At least, all this has awakened in him the desire to find true closeness. I have a certain peace that even if we don't find it with each other, in the end, we will come out of this much more ¨whole¨.<P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Hey schizzo,<P>I found the book. It is written by a Christian author so some of it is from that slant. Don't know what you believe, so thought you should know. <P>A little background so you know. The counselor my H is now seeing feels that he is a sex addict. (I had already suspected this from my own reading.) There is a huge continuum there so don't be scared by the term. My H was. I was too. Not so great to learn you are married to a sex addict. <P>The counselor recommended a book, Out of the Shadows. It talks about sexual addictions but didn't really apply to my husband. He's not addicted to porn or prostitutes (at least that I know of... - please no, God, I can't take anymore!). But, then I found this false intimacy book and it so applies to him. It deals with sexual addiction but in a different light. It's about - well, I'll let it speak for itself. <P>Location on the continuum (of sexual addiction) defines varying levels of sexual interest, sexual activity, and deviation from real intimacy. But regardless of where they fall along the progression, their goals are the same. Each wants to avoid the pain of real intimacy and obtain a sense of relational satisfaction - even if it's counterfeit - through false intimacy. Their motives are strong and rarely analyzed, which can lead to extreme behavior, many risks, and destructive consequences.<P>We must not assume that sexual addiction is an attempt to find real intimacy. In actuality, it's an avoidance of the pain often caused by real intimacy. In effect, a sex addict creates a psuedo relationship with someone who can be controlled. <P>Sexual addiction is a complex problem with multiple causes and far-reaching consequences. It results when a person becomes dependent on sexual experiences to achieve a sense of personal fulfillment. A person who feels that life isn't fulfilling, who experiences disappointment in real intimacy, who loses hope, and who lacks self-confidence is a candidate to be enticed into sexual addiction. The force of the allure goes far beyond sex to the depths of the heart, where the deceitfulness is beyond most people's comprehension. <P>Sexual addiction isn't just an issue of sex or even of external behavior. It's a byproduct of loneliness, pain, the self-centered demand to be loved and accepted regardless of the consequences, and a loss of vital relationship with God.<P>The sex addict wants a quick fix - quick relational relief without the disappointment possible in genuine intimacy.<P>But, these relationships are really self-made, seemingly safe fantasies structured to be what the addict wants them to be. The addict believes in the illusion of control because he controls the illusion. "The people I'm having affairs with will be cooperative and make me feel great." <P>Fantasy seems to be much safer than risking emotions in unpredictable relationships and suffering the pain that real intimacy can cause. <P>Sex is a conquest- imaginary or real- and abates the terrifying sense of not belonging. For at least a brief moment, fantasies become more real than real life. <P>A sex addict who uses any of the behaviors listed in this chapter(gotta get the book!) believes that the other person will relieve his inner emptiness. Each time the chosen sexual behavior is used, the addict's emptiness is numbed or temporarily forgotten. The emptiness returns, and with it the realization that whatever person the addict used didn't provide lasting benefits. Then fear, anger, and/or resentment kick in, and the sex addict must pursue the behavior that he believes is essential to well-being and fulfillment. <P>Below the surface, the addict is steeped in desperation and anxiety, fear and shame, and sadness and loneliness. These desperate feelings simply drive the addict to keep the illusion of fulfillment going.<P>Sexuality used to create false intimacy presents the perfect illusion: limitless capacity for orgasm, control, the perfect partner, sexual fulfullment on demand, excitement, freedom from conventional restraints, danger, no fear of rejection, no pain of failure, and no disappointments. <P>For the sex addict, each external sexual act is a desperate attempt to be involved in a relationship without being truly known and having to take the risks involved in developing real intimacy. In effect, the addict pushes his desires for warmth and love to the limits, demanding complete satisfaction without the risk of being hurt. Sadly, such behavior invariably creates far more intense pain than the original pain the addict is trying to escape and/or prevent.<P>WHEWWW!! I'm done. Hope that helps. What's your H's history? Come to find out, my H has a LOT of issues with his parents. Long story. Just trying to figure out what your H meant by developmental issues with women. Could be his history is similar to my H's. <P><BR>

Hi Schizzo,<P>So many good questions - many that I have in my mind also. You say you based your lives on what is right and on your commitment. Also that you are trying to find those "feelings" for the first time rather than recapture what was lost - (though I think we must have all had some of those feelings, if even at a lesser intensity, or we never would have progressed as far as marriage). Boy, can I relate to so much of that. And it is scary - isn't it? Sometimes we get so set on the "plan" - of how to build that love into our marriage, and we put our hope and determination into that, but then these doubts creep in and we wonder if it ever really can be. Will the feelings ever come? - and I do agree those are an important ingredient and very desirable. <P>I have been pondering the whole intimacy concept lately. We all yearn for it. Yet we all are also acquainted with loneliness. Most of us look to marriage to find intimacy (emotional closeness) and to fill the loneliness. In the beginning those "in-love" feelings seem to do a very good job of satisfying our need of intimacy and taking away the loneliness - that is also why affairs are so powerful. Yet, even marriage cannot completely fill this need we have for intimacy. I was listening to a tape by Gary Smallely on Expectations. He said that we all look to people or things to fill certain voids we have, but ultimately none of those things can fully fill that void - only God can. In the same way our loneliness cannot be completely taken care of by another person. Some of the loneliness we experience is really God calling to us (though we don't recognize that). Gary Smalley said that when he feels that loneliness he now turns that into seeking out God and looking at it as God calling to him. <P>I hope this doesn't sound too simplistic or even a way to gloss over a desire we have for more intimacy in our marriage. I recognize there are some very broken parts in our marriages. Often it is broken parts in one or both individuals - that stands in the way of intimacy. It is those broken parts that can be scary - can they be healed? Yet, I am also realizing that loneliness will be a part of all our lives - sometimes the loneliness we are feeling is actually a longing for God.<P>A very good book I read several years ago on intimacy is : Intimacy, the Longing of Every Human Heart by Terry Hershey. It is excellent on understanding what intimacy is and helped me immensely in being able to enjoy relationships. My husband is reading it now.<P>Anyway, Schizzo, I hear your heart in your posts and I am there with you. Keep seeking - intimacy is good - it is what God has intended for us. First with Him and then with others.

Dead Inside and Siftedlikewheat,<P>I am about to catch another plane so I can get back home (boy do I miss my little ones, DI, you have about the same age? 5 and 3?)<P>I will come back tomorrow to reply, but thanks for the responses.

Mine are almost 4 and almost 1. Hope you have a safe trip. Hope you get some good talking in with your H.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Location on the continuum (of sexual addiction) defines varying levels of sexual interest, sexual activity, and deviation from real intimacy. But regardless of where they fall along the progression, their goals are the same. Each wants to avoid the pain of real intimacy and obtain a sense of relational satisfaction - even if it's counterfeit - through false intimacy. Their motives are strong and rarely analyzed, which can lead to extreme behavior, many risks, and destructive consequences. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>DeadInside, I would love to read this book as this quote seems to explain my H to a T. I have long thought he was not capable of true intimacy and wondered how he could have established such a unique "soulmate" intimacy with OW. Thought it was just me. The extreme behavior, risks, destructive consequences are all there...drinking, disregard of his own business dealings, disregard of family, <BR>possible drug use...all for the sake of sex and "true love" with OW.<P>The basis of my H problems was low self-esteem.<P>To me, my H is a surface person..for what of a better term...all his dealings with people are on the surface...he doesn't know how to be intimate with anyone and it always leaves you feeling like something is lacking in your marriage. But I use to think it was me, until I had children and realized that I had deep relationships with them.<P>Somewhere along the way the children realized they would never have a deep relationship with their father...that it would always be stilted and never the same as their relationship with me. If you never can give, you never get back in return.<P>Buffy<P><BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 20, 2000).]

buffy,<P>It doesn't have to always be that way. I am seeing huge changes in my H. Although, I wonder if he will ever be truly *whole*, if you know what I mean. If he'll ever really get the whole compassion thing. <P>His counseling has helped SO MUCH as has the Prozac. But, the biggest help has definitely been his committment to Christ and how God is changing him. <P>I still worry that it isn't real and won't last. It is my biggest concern. But, I see such a difference in him with our children and me. Even strangers in sad situations he seems to have concern for where before it was like, "S*cks to be them...". <P>I think that no one is beyond redemption. You should get the book. <P>There is tons more I could say about this but, I've gotta go to counseling myself now.

Dead Inside and Siftedlikewheat<P>Since I don't sleep well on red-eyes (we started at 3:30 pm yesterday and arrived this morning) I was up thinking and torturing myself wondering if I could someday meet someone that I could share intimacy with.<P>I think I got part of the quote, except isn't it true of affairs by definition? Rather than do the hard work of seeking intimacy in the marriage, the WS seeks true-love with OW. Only in HINDSIGHT, my h feels he was seeking intimacy, not just sex.<P>Buffy, I too thought it was me for many years. But as DI said, they can change if they want to. It's a long hard road, but it seems the alternative of starting over with someone else comes with its own share of difficulties, not to mention depriving the kids of a parent.<P>Dead Inside, when I replied to you sometime ago, you sounded very down on your h (very understandably). I hear you much more positive. I believe seeing the changes in him is a big part of the healing. The other side is our decision to forgive and move on.<P>Again, you sound like you are handling it well. My h has also become a much better father. We haven't had counselling outside of specific marriage counselling with Jenn Harley (a life saver). I still think we might benefit from individual counselling if we could find the right person. But we have been working through a lot of this on our own.<P>

schizzo,<P>Glad you're back. Just wanted to answer your latest post. In regard to what you said about seeking false intimacy being true of affairs by definition... I agree. I think where the book is going is that there is a line between addiction and nonaddiction. <P>It's about a life pattern of having trouble with real intimacy. There are risk factors and core beliefs that these people have that you wouldn't find with every one who gets involved in an affair. <P>I don't know if it would apply to your H or not. I just know it fits mine to a T.<P>What you said about me being more positive about my H... I guess I am. I'm scared to be. But, I can't deny the major changes in him. <P>When all this came to light, I prayed and prayed for a different man. I prayed that I wanted God's will for my life, but that, hey God, if it matters what I want... I want a DIFFERENT MAN! Well, I think maybe God is answering me in a way I did not ever expect.<P>I never thought my H could be so HUMAN. I'm just really, really scared to believe in him. Obvious reasons...<P>Listen, you talk about longing for that intimacy. I completely understand. <P>Today I asked my counselor what I could do to help my H learn compassion and the values that he never learned. He told me - model it for him. He said, this is the hardest thing to ask of you right now because you are hurting, but he needs that model. <P>People have been pi$$ed off at him his whole life. He needs your unconditional love and forgiveness and support. He talked about how God is working on all of our character. I think I can really grasp on to that.<P>I can feel God trying to pull out of me what I don't want to give. Which is unconditional love, forgiveness, and support. But, that is what will conform me more to the image of Christ. As painful (and inconvenient!) as that may be for me...<P>I'm not trying to tell you how to deal with your own situation. I'm sure it is different from ours in a lot of ways. I just think I am making a decision to love him and do what I can to make him a whole human being. Because it is best for my kids to have a great dad. Because I love him. And because I vowed to stand by him. <P>It is a huge risk. I may not be protected by him and he may betray me again. I may be left alone in ten or twenty years. Or one year. I may be left without that intimacy for the rest of my life. But, this is where I am and I believe God put me here for a reason. I believe in God's activity in my life with everything I am, so I have finally decided to do what He would have me do.<P>I hope you find some answers and some peace. I have found some answers, can't say I have found total peace... Yet... <P>My thoughts are with you... <P>

Good Lord, Dead Inside!<P>I just read your post regarding counterfeit intimacy .... and it's my H to the letter. Our therapist told me this about my H but she didn't get the degree of granularity as you did on your post.<P>I'm buying this book tomorrow. It's so interesting and right on the money.<P>Thank-you!<BR>Jo

{{{{{Schizzo}}}}}}}<P>Its been a long time since I've seen you around. This is Lonelymom, only I changed my name a few months ago. I stay on the divorced board, but popped over for a quick second wondering how Woozy was doing.<P>Just want to say hang in there, don't lose sight of what's truly important to you and keep in touch!<P>Prayers, and hugs, <BR>DanaB(lonelymom)