Ok everyone - not a great week for me. Major argument over a misunderstanding and the right to privacy. After taking time to assess the situation, I asked my H how we could rebuild, what would WE need to do to scrap the old and make it better. Instead of constructive info, he blasts me about repescting his privacy (nice little message from OW on his voicemail about money he gave her)and why he feels like I'm the evil thing walking the earth. Not only that, he contiues to pick at me by deliberatly bringing up how it's all my fault, he's done no wrong, if I didn't have a PA, this wouldn't have happened, he didn't create an atmosphere for it, yadda, yadda, yadda. <P>He doesn't see how I can partly fault myself for his PA (jeez - wife still depressed about her own A, can't open up, won't talk - I'd have an A too ) He thinks I'm crazy for that. Am I blaming him totally - no, but he thinks so. So back to the issue, he continues to try to create new arguments with me until I finally give up and say - I'm not arguing about it, you win. That's funny because then he stops and looks somewhat defeated. I try to tell him that I can't carry the load of fixing this by myself, again he goes I did that a long time ago, and I say - well if I didn't work for you, what makes you think it'll work for me? Silence.<P>I ask him again about trying to create constructive tips for us - he shifts back to the blame game again, he wants me to go to all the counseling session, etc. - he won't do it. My question is - when does this stop? I'm tired of trying to defend myself and sick of letting him accuse me of everything that's wrong. If I talk to him about something my timing is wrong, even when we're just taking a 30 minute drive, my timing is wrong? I don't get it? He asked if we could talk about it tomorrow, and I said sure and left the room to get ready for bed. The next comment I heard was a very scarcastic "Wow, I'm shocked and impressed". I just answered, you'll have to make the next step. He left to go sit and think in his car and I had a nice restful sleep. Can a guy give me some insight on this nonesense?<BR>I'm tired of fighting with old ammunition, either something constructive gets into the plans or he can continue on that path alone - I'm not falling in that anymore.<P>Vee

Vee,<P>I applaud you for trying to find ways to build your marriage with your H. It must be really hard when you meet with a brick wall sometimes. <P>I just thought of some things when reading your post. I can see myself in some of what your H is doing. Not that it is right or productive... <P>You said he looks defeated when you give in and refuse to argue anymore. I feel that way sometimes. It makes me feel like he doesn't care enough to fight for me. That may sound stupid but, maybe that is the case with your H. <P>You said he went to go sit in his car and think and you went to sleep. I'm sure he was being a real jerk to you and you don't deserve it. But, can I make a suggestion? The next time he does that, what if you went and sat next to his car. Just to show him that you are going to be there for him and you feel his pain. I think it might say a lot more to him about your love for him than you going to sleep. <P>Please, don't take any of this the wrong way. I am not trying to be judgmental at all. I'm just wondering if he is feeling how I am. I got really mad at my H the other night and went to sleep on the couch. I was being really sarcastic and mean and he would have been right to just ignore me and go to sleep. He didn't. He came and slept on the floor next to me and didn't say a word. Him doing that said so much to me about his committment to me. <P>Maybe too he feels like you not being totally enraged by his A is a sign that you don't really care about him. I have been tempted to go down the road of a retaliatory A. If I did and my H was not totally broken up (even if he was right in thinking he set the scene for it) it would hurt me. Could this be the case with your H? <P>I think the sarcasm and the anger come from the pain. They are defense mechanisms he has put up. I am sorry that they are directed at you. I know they hurt. It hurts my H when I am like that too. But, he can *love* me out of it and maybe you can do the same. <P>Sometimes wounds are so deep that you can't always tap into the pain because it is overwhelming. So it just comes out as rage and sarcasm. My H has gotten really smart in that he realizes when I am REALLY b****y is when I am hurting the most. That is when he tries to be super supportive. He sincerely tells me how sorry he is and how he knows I am hurting. Just thinking that could be what is up with your H telling you your timing is always wrong. <P>I feel that way a lot when he wants to talk and I am thinking, "Don't want to go there. Don't want to feel that pain." No time is the right time. <P>What is the Bible verse? A soft word turns away wrath. My H is perfecting it and it is helping our marriage. If you could see his reactions as stemming from the pain he feels inside and be compassionate I think you would notice a difference. Do you think he perceives you that way? <P>If he doesn't feel validated in his pain, if he doesn't feel that you are totally and completely in love with him and that you feel his pain - then maybe he feels like counseling is hopeless. <P>It sounds to me like he is trying to punish you. You need to constantly remind him and make him see that you are on his side. <P>I know sometimes with us it is better to write letters to each other. Do you think you could do that? It is a way to express your feelings without interruption and without tempers flaring. With my sarcastic tendency, it is better in writing sometimes. Maybe he could reveal more of his feelings to you that way and you could better understand what is motivating him. I humbly suggest that you write him a letter and tell him how you really feel and want to feel his pain. Let him know how important he is and how committed you are. Ask him to write you back. See if it helps you get to a new level of communication. It did us. <P>Again, I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. I don't mean to suggest you are wrong in your approach. Just thought it might help you to look at it from a different perspective. <P>I'm sure it is not all your fault. It must get really frustrating to hear that. But, one of you has to be the bigger person in this. Sounds like it's gonna have to be you! <P>

Dead Inside -<P>When I write letters (maily because I'm not a good verbal person w/ my feelings) he wants to know why I couldn't say it so he's always attacking that. I try to sit with him but he doesn't want me to. Plus he's picked up a very bad habit with smoking cigars and my sinuses are so sensitive to smoke, it's unbearable.<P>He knows that I love him and I tell him that I feel his pain, but he's always doing something childish back to me. And I did tell him last night that I thought that he was punishing me. I don't think he sees me as compassionate. He's always saying I mean or harsh, even when I try to reach out to him. He walks around with a grin most of the time and I don't. I don't think I look mean, but I'm just a thinker so I'm always thinking about something which is why my face is usually kind of solemn. <P>I really don't know what is left. His arguments aren't the kind that show "I want to see how much you love me" but very resentful, angry comments that try to prove me wrong. It's as if he wants to see if he can tire me out and win the debate. I tire of those very quickly because they are not productive and they make me even angrier, so I'm opting not to participate in them. <P>I've told him several times that I know his pain, but I just don't think he understands mine. After d-day I told him that I would have bad days and I would need his support and reassurance, it seems like it all went over his head. <P>I'm not offended by anyone's comments, I'm just trying to figure out how all of this is supposed to work. That's why I appreciate everyone here! <P>Vee

Have you read Divorce Busting By Michele Weimer-Davis? It might help you to break out of the pattern you are in. Lots of suggestions for changing how you react to effect a change in his behavior.<BR>Lora

Lora -<BR>No - but I'll check it out. I just got Men Made Easy that JL is always raving about. I'm hoping it'll lead to some insight or help in some way. My H did just receive major brownie points a few minutes ago. I just got home about 20 min ago and he's not here so I assumed he went to one of his friends house, but he called just as I was going to call him to say prcatice ran late and he was on his way home.<P>He's going to be out of town this weekend w/ his football team so I was getting a little anxious since we haven't really talked about progress plans yet. I came up with an idea - to try and treat each other the way we did when we were dating. Maybe even simulate that. We use to start serious talks by saying "ok, let's have a best friend talk". It use to work really well until we became so distant. Maybe if we can do that without getting upset (or at least me anyway) it'll help. I'm going to broach the subject when he gets home to see what he thinks. I'm way too tired to argue about anything, so maybe that'll keep me in a non-threatening light. We'll see!<P>Vee

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>...he looks defeated when you give in and refuse to argue anymore. I feel that way sometimes. It makes me feel like he doesn't care enough to fight for me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you hit the head right on the nail. My W probably feels much like you Vee, and yes, when she stops talking or says what she thinks I want to hear just to stop the conversation, it does make me feel like "US" isn't that important. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>You said he went to go sit in his car and think and you went to sleep. The next time he does that, what if you went and sat next to his car. Just to show him that you are going to be there for him and you feel his pain. I think it might say a lot more to him about your love for him than you going to sleep.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, another one hits the head right on the nail. By going to sleep while he is agonizing about what is going on his life, shows him that he and the relationship is really not that important to you. Sitting in the car would probably mean so much to him. <B>WARNING!!!</B>, he probably won't say that it does, or he may even start another argument, but going out and sitting with him will mean sooooo much. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Maybe too he feels like you not being totally enraged by his A is a sign that you don't really care about him.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dead Inside, it's like you have been reading my mind while living in my house <P>I too had a revenge affair, actually a one night stand, and it didn't seem that my W was very much bothered by it, and yes, it pissed me off so much, maybe not pissed off, maybe hurt even more would be better. I felt that she really didn't care at all, "how could she not be enraged and hurt by me sleeping with someone else", these are the things that went through my mind. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>A soft word turns away wrath......<BR>If he doesn't feel validated in his pain, if he doesn't feel that you are totally and completely in love with him and that you feel his pain..........You need to constantly remind him and make him see that you are on his side.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It has only been in the past two weeks that my W has started to see things in this manner and I must admit that it has made me feel much better, has motivated me to continue to work on re-building, and it has caused me to be more compassionate towards her by giving her a break and not bringing up her affair, which in turn seems to be helping her give me more of what I need. <P><BR>Sorry to "steal" all of your quotes DeadInside, but you stated very eloquently all the things that I myself have thought, felt and gone through in trying to recover from my wife's affair. <P>Vee, I think that DeadInside has given you some great insight and advice. Good Luck

F A & Dead Inside -<BR> Again, thank you for your insight. I didn't just give up on him when I went to bed, it was late and I needed the rest. Also, he asked to be alone. I just felt at that time there was no point in asking him anything since it only caused more arguments.<P>I don't know if his arguments are really "see how much you care" ones. They always seem so angry and mean spirited. During those times, he attacks my character and quite frankly I've had enough of that. But I will try your concepts. Since this post, we haven't been around each other long enough to try and make something work. He's been nicer than when I posted this thread, but I really want some communication on how to rebuild. <P>I guess it's part of that insecure stage when you really need to hear the words more than anything else. <P>Again, thanks you guys!<BR> <BR>Vee