I'm going to describe my situation, and then pose a question. I ask that you try to respond as objectively as you are able. I'll try to be succinct. Remember, this is my POV, and is not reflective of anything my H's perceptions.<P>In July 1999, I filed for divorce due to ongoing problems in our marriage which had led to me having very bad self-esteem problems. I won't go into it, but my primary reason was that my H's calling me derogutory names on a fairly routine basis had devastated me to the point where I felt suicidal and worthless. I felt that the only way to show him that I meant serious business was to file and see if he wouldn't make some changes in himself. I was literally at my wit's end.<P>After a month of TRO, my H and I reconciled. He agreed to go into counseling with me. I agreed to drop the divorce suit and the TRO, and he moved back in. Well, after a month, the same things were happening again. We had a particularly bad fight, and in the heat of anger, I said something really stupid like, "Well, move out then," or something to that effect. I didn't really mean it, of course. Well, my H packed up his bag and left. I thought he would be back after a few days - this was a pattern with us. He stayed over at a mutual friend's house and then after things had blown over, he moved back and we would reconcile. This time, he did not move back in. During this week, the divorce suit and TRO were officially dropped. H came back and moved more of his things out and allegedly moved in with a couple that we both know.<P>For the next six months, my H lived away, against my wishes. I did not contact him except at work, because I felt too uncomfortable calling him at the mutual friends' house - where he said he was staying. I cannot count the times I begged and pleaded with my H to come back and work on the marriage and keep his promise to go into counseling, however, he used the divorce suit and TRO as a reason why he could not live with me. I asked him many times if he were having sex with someone else, and he always denied it. H was particularly cruel to me at this time, from my perspective. He said things like, "I'm not in love with you anymore." He said that because of his poor relationship with my mother and father, he couldn't have children with me. He told me that maybe it would hve been better if I'd divorced him. All of these things set off a big warning bell in my head. At this time, I saw no one and had sex with no one else. I was as chaste as a nun. I simply sat at home ... waiting. And crying. It was the darkest, most lonely time of my life. I weathered the death of a loved one, and the death of our little kitty, largely alone for the most part. I later found out that when I needed my H to be with me the most, he was with the woman he was living with on those occasions. I did not feel that he was there for me, in a substantive sense. The messages he gave me were very ambiguous.<P>Come to find out, via P.I., H was largely living with a woman he had had sex with. He called this "fooling around." He moved back into our home in late February, and confessed to the "fooling around," but refused to label himself a cheater, or say that he had an affair. After a month, I found out that he was in contact with the same woman he had been living with and "fooling around" with. He had also been seeing her. He said that they were just friends, however, I had asked him, twice, if he were still seeing her of having contact with her, and he told me, "no." The lies indicated to me that there was a big need for concern. I knew at that point until I was assured that he would have no more contact with her, that he could not move back into our home. <P>Now due to this incident, and another incident which aided things along, he is living apart from me. This time he is living with male friends. We are slowly reconciling, spending more time with each other. Things seem to be better between us, and we are discussing the issues that needed to be discussed a long time ago. He is in counseling, as far as I know. I do not know if he is in contact with the woman he was living with. Because of my anger over this situation, I cannot seem to find an objective way to ask this without it coming out without it seeming as though I'm blaming him or accusing him. I would definitely like to change this, because I feel that I have the right to know.<P>He has indicated to me in the past that he will not sever contact with the woman. She has indicated to me that she would like to continue to be his friend. This is unacceptable to me, as it puts them in a situation where they are together, and I am cut out of the loop. The woman he lived with indicated to me that she doesn't feel comfortable meeting me. (Duh, wonder why? - Sorry, I tried to present this without being meanspirited.) I have very clearly told both that this will not be acceptable to me if me and my H are to still remain married.<P>H still maintains that this was not an affair, nor was he cheating. Even after he moved back in with me, he maintains that his contact with this woman was not something that I should be concerned about. His reasons for "fooling around" are that because we were physically separated, this made it something other than an affair. I maintain that it was an affair, and he was cheating, because of his secrecy and the fact that he lied about it several times. I feel that had he told me that he was sleeping with someone else, he knew that I would have definitely refiled for divorce and things between us would have been over. To me, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. However my H labels it, the effects of his "fooling around" were the same as though he had confessed to having an affair. I went through all of the same feelings and craziness and low self-esteem. I feel very invalidated when he tells me that it was not an affair, because this seems to me to be a way of negating my feelings and making them "invalid." (BTW, I also strongly suspect that my H had sex with other women while we were living apart.)<P>What is your definition of my H's relationship with this other woman he was living with and having sex with? Would you define this as an affair? Would you say that he was a cheater/betrayer? Given my role in this situation, how much do I have a right to know about my H's sexual involvement with other women? Do I have the right to demand that contact with this woman be severed, given that I feel the way I do about their "friendship?"<P>Just looking for opinions. Sometimes I feel crazy - sometimes I want to believe him, if only to assuage the pain that this has caused. But every time I try, I fail, and the pain comes back tenfold. <P>Thanks for your help.<P>belld

I am a betrayed spouse and I will tell you as I see it. If you were still legally married to this man and he was having sex with another woman, then yes he is/was.. having an affair! There are different types of affairs, ranging from one night stands to long term affairs. Maybe he is trying to downplay it because of some type of guilt.

belldandy,<P>your H is just trying to rationalize his behavior and avoid feeling guilty. if he is still legally married to you, then having sex with another woman is considered an affair, whether you are separated or not. it doesn't sound like he is making sincere efforts towards reconciliation. bottom line, he MUST sever ALL CONTACT with that woman.they can't even be "friends". Harley's book says that, and all the books i have read on this subject say that. how can it be any other way? otherwise, the temptation is always there and they will most likely continue on the sly. i wouldn't let him back in to your house or your heart until he agrees NO CONTACT. and if you two get back together, i hope you will do some counseling to work on the issue of his verbal abuse to you. if you love your partner, you do not verbally abuse them, making them feel degraded and worthless. wishing you luck, B.<BR> SW

Belldandy -<P>As a WS, I would classify your husbands actions as an affair. I would also say that you have every right to demand that he sever all contact with whomever he had an EA or PA with during your "time of separation." I think he's looking for a loophole in the marriage contract - trying to alleviate his feelings of guilt or whatever. I think he's trying to lessen the impact HE perceives on your marriage- if that's possible.<P>Unless you were divorced by court order during this time, I agree, he cheated on you. He wanted his cake and eat it too.

Thanks, all, for your input thus far. For a very long time, I tried to convince myself that my H was right and that I was wrong for having these feelings. Particularly when he moved back in after living with the OW. (Okay, let's call a spade a spade, right?) However, once I found out that the relationship continued, I knew that something was wrong. I knew that it was inappropriate. I felt that my H *had* to know that it was harmful to the marriage - that we could not possibly make things right between us until the OW was out of the picture entirely. It's the only way things could have worked out. <P>Ironically, during the short time he was at home (before I found out with certainty that he was still seeing her), his behavior was a dead give away. I don't know if he realized this ... but I could tell that he was going through those withdrawal symptoms of not seeing her every day. When I found his cell phone and found out that he had been in communication with her almost every day, sometimes 2-3 times a day, and saw some phone calls for 1 hour or more ... it was a stab through the heart.<P>I also discovered a card that she sent to his private p.o. box that I thought was highly inappropriate. I have male friends (left over from college, mainly), and I would never dream of sending them a card to a private p.o. box, be they married or single.<P>I want so much to tell him, "Look, until you follow the procedure listed in the SAA book, we cannot see each other." And yet I am so pleased that he is treating me with a smidgen of respect, that I feel that this is asking too much. I know, logically and intellectually, that I have every right to demand that he terminate contact for good. I know this with every ounce of self-respect and integrity that I have. Dr. Farley himself recommended that I do this - I talked to him for 45 minutes on his radio show. I wish that I weren't such a coward. It's just that in the past, I've felt that there was such a tenuous bond between us, I didn't want to "rock the boat" and send my H right back into her home. <P>There are so many questions that I need to be answered. I feel as though I've been so very patient. I feel that my H is capable of giving me the answers, but I don't know why he refuses ... I asked him if he could take what happened during the time he was away to his grave, and he looked me right in the eye and said, very definitively, "Yes!" This hit me right through the heart, too. I don't know if he realizes that as long as he has this "secret" between he and the OW, it is dividing us and making he and the OW an "us," rather than making he and me an "us."<P>I look forward to getting more opinions. This is enlightening. It's good to know that I'm not crazy, or delusional, or what have you. Bless you all.<P>belld

Belldandy,<P>You are not crazy. You H was/is having an affair, and let's face it, once there has been an emotional and sexual bond of an affair, it all contact is not cut the chances of it happening, continuing to happen are enormous !<P>I know what it is to love our spouses and not want to rock the boat, but you have to make a stand on this one thing at least. I think you will be amazed at what standing up for yourself can do for the old self respect.<P>Yes he's treating you good, <B> now </B> in all but the way you need him to the most. If this ahem, friendship is more important than your marriage to him, there is a big problem.<BR>Sorry but that is the way I see it.<P>Deb<P>Hepatitis C, educate yourself, please ! <A HREF="http://www.hepatitis-central.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.hepatitis-central.com/</A> <P>------------------<BR>Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<BR>In memory of a dear friend WallyM7 <A HREF="http://=http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp<BR>http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp" TARGET=_blank>=http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp<BR>http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/wally.adp</A> <BR>HepatitisC, educate yourself ! <A HREF="http://=http://hepatitis-central.com/" TARGET=_blank>=http://hepatitis-central.com/</A>

Funny how they can make you feel like that, huh. Like you are the crazy one. No, belldandy. You are not crazy. Nor was I and it took me a long, long time to realize that. <P>My H had a very similar "friendship." When I first discovered this "friend" I was told it was no big deal,,she was "just a very talkative nice old lady." (his words) During this period my H also became very verbally abusive. I could do nothing right. Everything was always my fault. I tried. God knows I tried to be perfect. I didn't know I didn't have a chance in h***. It wasn't me or anything I was doing or wasn't doing. It was him and his guilt making him so disagreeable. <P>Belldandy, he HAS to sever ALL contact with her for your marriage to have a chance. She can't be his "friend." My H ended all contact with the OW upon my discovery of the affair. He is back to the guy I used to know and even better. We have grown, we have matured and finally now appreciate each other. It can happen. We are proof. Good luck to you.

Nerlycrzy,<P>Funny, but my H acted the same way, intemittently, after he moved back in. I could always tell when he had had contact with her, because all of a sudden problems started to errupt where there were none. Out of thin air, he would become very moody, or very volatile. Sometimes I'd see him sitting there, watching television with this - swear to God - moony expression on his face, and it just killed me to pieces. I mean, I've had temptations and flirtations; one guy even tried to really make a move on me during our forced separation, but I never let it get to the point where I *dwelled* on anyone else. That hurt the most, I think.<P>I've noticed a profound change in my H, and I think that he is not having contact with OW, or if he is, it is very infrequent. But I need to know for sure. Because the problems in our marriage are still not fixed, and I don't want her to be waiting in the wings, lest something blow up in our faces. I think that he would probably run to her right away. <P>The absurdity of them thinking that they can still be "friends" floors me. It really does. I mean, I try and try to get past it. But I still do not understand, nor do I comprehend, why my H would possibly think that I would agree to this. I cannot understand why the OW thinks that this is a good idea, either. I mean, I am open-minded. but not *this* open-minded. How could I ever explain to someone - my family, my friends - that my H was still friends with an exlover that he met while we were married? Makes NO SENSE!!!!<P>belld (sorry for the rant - I'm just in one of those confounded moods tonight.)

Maybe I missed this or just don't quite understand,,,is he living with you now? Do you only suspect he is still seeing her because of his moodiness or do you have other signs? And how long have you been married? Kids?

Belldandy,<P>Justification. I think that's what it boils down to (like others have said). I think you have every right to insist contact ends between he and this woman, and I also believe if your husband desires reconciliation, he will be more than happy to agree to this.<P>I think your h is going to have to dig deep to get to the root of his problems. Are you both in counseling? It just seems as if he's not taking into account your feelings (any person would feel as you do about what's happened) and he needs to understand (maybe through an objective third party) that his way of thinking and actions don't mesh with a healthy "recovering" marriage. <P>It sounds really frustrating from your end, hopefully he will realize that the truth won't bite him. I think maybe what he's afraid of is "committing" to giving up something familiar, and admitting to his actions that are an obvious embarrassment to him, and of hurting you.

Belldandy:<P>Please let me assure you that the only way to handle this matter is for H to cut off all contact with OW.<P>My H remained in phone contact with OW although she was 2000 miles away. Not every day but maybe two times a week or sometimes less. He considered the affair over, but remained in contact as friends. <P>Well, she came back and being the needy person that she is, needed his help and he was there....not long before it was a full blown affair again. <P>Stick with your insistance that he sever all contact before he comes back or you will be in the position I am...dealing with this for the 3rd time. As Harley says, the H will always be in love with the OW...a least a little.<P>Buffy<P><BR>

Thanks for all the subsequent responses. In answer to your questions, and to clarify: my H and I have been together for seven years, married for five. No kids yet. I knew that there were problems in the marriage very early on (the same problems I suspect led to his affair, us leading too "individual" lives - not by my choice, of course), and did not want to bring children into a dysfunctional marriage. <P>We are not in counseling largley due to our financial situation. It's like this: I knew that my H was seeing and contacting the OW behind my back, and that he was lying about it. Well, one night, after I knew that he had been with her and some other friends at a bar, I finally lost my patience and approached him with it. He got very angry and grabbed me by the forearms. Well, long story short, the end result was that he got arrested for domestic violence. I did not press charges, nor did I want my H arrested. In fact, the call was placed for completely unrelated reasons, and the police essentially badgered the information out of me. H's attorney has advised that he live apart from me until his court date passes and things are resolved one way or another. I think this is the worst idea in the world, as not only are these friends very "pro-affair" and "pro-OW," they are also some of his former clients that he has represented on similar charges. That will not look good in court, if it comes out. <P>So there is the added problem of this arrest on his record. I feel that if my H had never gone to meet the OW, we would have never argued, and none of this would have happened. However, he sees it differently. I have to spend every penny I earn on our home note and the bills for our home. So there is no money - absolutely none - for counseling. I can barely feed myself, much less think about paying someone $100 an hour for counseling. And I don't want to go to a pro-bono counselor. I just don't. <P>We don't have the support of my family. They know all about the OW, and in fact, paid for the P.I. bill of $4,000. So they are very bitter about my H, and my H is very bitter about them, because he feels that they are not supporting the marriage. Frankly, I think he needs some perspective on this - of course my parents, loving me as they do, are going to not like him a whole bunch for moving out, leaving me with the bills, and shacking up with the OW. (Yet another thing this woman can't get through her thick skull - how devastating this has been not only for me, but my family.) <P>So it's all quite complicated. I think the best thing would be for my H to come home. However, I simply cannot take him back until the letter of no contact has been sent and delivered via certified mail. I don't trust any of his friends to deliver it. <P>It's all a big mess. Sometimes I wonder if I should just cut my losses. I am willing to work with my H ... however, it seems to me that I'm giving everything here, and I don't even have the honesty that I need to heal from this affair. It's so sad to have to find out about a spouse's affair from a P.I., when apparently a lot of people knew about it and could have told me what the score was.<P>belld

Selfishly moving this thread to the top in hopes of getting some opinions from others, particularly those who have had affairs.<P>belld

[QUOTE]Originally posted by belldandy:<BR><B>What is your definition of my H's relationship with this other woman he was living with and having sex with? Would you define this as an affair? Would you say that he was a cheater/betrayer?</B><P>That is a tough one. It is funny...it comes up here a lot, people being enraged that their separated spouses had sexual relationships. I should first say that I have not been in the situation...I am working on a withdrawn W, but no infidelity. <P>On the one hand, sure, as long as there is a legal marriage, one would think that the marital vows should be in effect.<P>On the other hand, as people forget...there are more marital vows that just fidelity. If your W doesn't love, doesn't honor you, and throws you out of the house....is it not understandable that you fail to "forsake all others"?<P>I've pondered separation, and the two things I am sure of is that:<P>1. with my libido, I would have no willpower to resist a willing and attractive woman<P>and 2. Knowing this, I would communicate to my W that I would be dating so that there was no question of honesty at stake.<P><B>The absurdity of them thinking that they can still be "friends" floors me. It really does. I mean, I try and try to get past it. But I still do not understand, nor do I comprehend, why my H would possibly think that I would agree to this.</B><P>I believe that you are correct in sticking to your guns on that issue. <BR>

Have to again agree with you, belldandy. Rebuilding the marriage would be much easier if he moved home BUT only with the No Contact letter. <P>And I'm sure your family will come around if they understand your committment and your H's sincere efforts to mend the marriage. They love you. When they see you hurt,,they hurt. They only want you happy. If you two decide to remain together, I'm sure a little talk by you explaining the need for their support, will be all it will take.

Well, I'm sort-of on the fence along with Mike C2... I am actually a WS who had a (as in ONE) sexual experience after H and I had filed for divorce and he moved out of our home. In my case it was an ex-boyfriend.<P>H and I decided to reconcile and guess what? It becomes EXTREMELY important to him to know what happened during our separation. I lied to him unfortunately... don't know how things would have gone had I not lied about it.<P>He found out through several means and here we are... he considers me a morally weak person and in effect a cheater. I just can't bring myself to agree, although I DID agree that it was obviously necessary for me to never have contact with my ex again if I were to truly reconcile w/ H... not sure why your H would not see this.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by belldandy:<BR><B>Would you define this as an affair? Would you say that he was a cheater/betrayer? Given my role in this situation, how much do I have a right to know about my H's sexual involvement with other women? Do I have the right to demand that contact with this woman be severed, given that I feel the way I do about their "friendship?"</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes. It's an affair. <BR>Yes, he is a cheater. <BR>Since you are his wife you deserve honesty. Yes, you deserve to be respected and considered in all decisions regarding who your H spends time with. If the two of you are not comfortable with each other's "friends", if the two of you don't know each other's "friends", it's innapropriate.

Mike & Monen,<P>Hmmm ... I guess I can understand that line of reasoning somewhat. My problem is that:<P>a) I did not really "kick" him out of the house prior to him moving in with the OW. The divorce suit and TRO were dropped. My H had moved back into the home and "agreed" to go into counseling (never happened, of course). To my mind, it was clear that H was willing to work on the marriage. Then at the first sign of trouble and after a really rash statement on my part (I made this statement in absolute sarcasm, believe me), he suddenly packs up his stuff and moves out and eventually in with her?<P>I'm not buying it. I think that had already met her during the month that we were separated. I have talked to some friends of the OWs and our friends, as well, and there is something about the timeline that is off. Friends report seeing them together while we were separated for that one month, and after he moved back into our home (both times). And from a friend of the OWs, I got the impression that they actually started getting "serious" in early October. Apparently, my H had told the OW that he had been separated for a "very long time." (A month? Please!) She was under the impression that we were getting a divorce. The friend I spoke with - this is very painful for me to write, BTW - said that OW said that my H was the nicest person she'd ever met, and that she thought he was "The One" for her. <P>What? He wasn't even legally separated. We weren't even planning a divorce. How could *my* H be "The One" for her - ????<P>2) The lies. If my H felt that this relationship was aboveboard and appropriate, he wouldn't have lied to me about it. Or lied to a lot of our friends about it. How come OW was this big dark secret that he had to keep from everyone he knew, including his family? If this were a legit relationship, as he felt it was, he would have announced it to the world and let them decide. But he did not. He skulked around.<P>3) Obviously, other people had the same impression. The man H did contract work for told me, very specifically, that one of the main reasons he fired my H was because he was having an affair with OW. He told me that he told H to straighten out his home life and then come back to work. Other mutual friends have the same impression of this time. <P>But my H does not. He still sees us as "separated." He made this unilateral decision to move out and live with another woman and justify it by saying, "Oh, we're separated." Never mind that I was paying the note and expenses for HIS HOUSE and his mail was still coming to our home. I think that qualifies us as being somewhat married, if I'm not mistaken.<P>I simply do not understand why H can't just come out and say, "Okay, I had a live-in affair. Let's deal with it now so that it doesn't happen again." Doesn't he realize how much I would respect him for owning up to the truth?<P>BTW - his parents and family know *nothing* about this. His mother, in particular, blames me for making her son unhappy. Do I dare tell her? Bah. That's another topic.<P>Thanks so much for letting me vent and giving me your input. The problem in this case has been that my H has a law degree, and is capable of convincing people that apples are oranges, that black is white. He almost had me snookered in the beginning that nothing was afoul and that he owed me no explanations.<P>He does. He owes me the whole story.<P>belld<BR>