Hi all:<P>It's the upcoming weekend I suppose but I'm low today. H's off to OW for the weekend and I'm here by myself. <P>We had lunch today as we do everyday and then spent the afternoon working together with me doing most of the work while he talked on the phone to OW and friend and read a bar journal.<P>At lunch I looked across at him and said to myself "Are you insane? You are an intelligent, attractive, capable woman and you are letting a man treat you like this."<P>"And what for? Look at him. He looks like an unmade bed. Needs a haircut and a beard trim...looks like he's wearing the same jeans he's been wearing all week...shirt's unpressed and wrinkled....this is what I want back." <P>And every day I let him walk away from me back into the same situation with a "have a good night" or "thanks for this that or the other" or sometimes a hug and everytime it's like he's making that same choice to leave again. <P>What's fair about this. Nothing. He can just go away, put me in a little compartment in his mind and not think about me until Monday again. <P>Every day I want to scream at him to take this job, OW, his life and cram it...but instead I make polite Plan A conversation and act nice and don't LB. <P>Please someone give me some backbone so that I can continue with this...I'm feeling like a jellyfish. Just want it all to end...to find something or someone else to make the hurting stop.<P>Well,guess I'll go walk a few rounds in the park as usual and talk somemore with God about his plans. Be back later.<P>Buffy

Hi Buffy,<BR> reading posts like this sure hits home with me. I know exactly what you are going through, and I know it is not easy. My wife has been gone for 6 days already on a camping trip in the mountains by herself (she obviously is with OM, I just play along). The only way I get through these periods is by keeping focused on improving my behaviours and habits so that I can be the best husband and man I can possible be, and hope that one day my wife will realize what she is missing, and come back. Hang in there. Eventually, things just gotta get better. <BR>Hugs and best wishes.<P>Boozy

Buffy, please hang in there. I believe in you. You can do it. My heart and my thought are with you. <P>OOOO

I give you all a lot of credit. I don't think I could stand waiting at home while my spouse was off with OW/M. You already have the backbone. I didn't. It only took 2 weeks before I put my H clothes out the door, because I couldn't live like that. He is staying with his parents and I don't know what he is doing. I was on the phone with him two days ago and I told him that I didn't want him to leave and I said, "you would have left anyway - wouldn't you?" He paused and then said "don't know - do you?"<BR>That hurt! I have HUGE doubts about kicking him out, but I do feel better about myself. At least now I don't know what he is doing. And hopefully, the time away from me will make him realize the grass isn't greener on the other side and he misses me. However, I don't believe any of my friends or family would ever be civil to him again. Too many people know. I live in too small of a town and I have a lot of friends. And unfortunately, I can't keep my feelings inside. I am very transparent.<P>But Buffy, you are a very strong person to be doing what you are doing. I give you a lot of credit. People tell me I am strong when I am fighting for my marriage.<P>In my prayers and give yourself credit. You are very strong!<P>MK

Hi All:<P>Took me a little bit longer to get back then I expected. Things are better now. If you all have not tried walking, I highly recommend it as a stress reliever. Some thing about a fast walk in 98 deg. heat that just takes your mind off of your troubles.<P>I don't know...seems like no matter how firmly you believe, there is always that doubt that things are going to work out for the best...even though the best may not be the best in your eyes.<P>The magic thing about this board is being able to share a down time with someone and having them understand why you're hurting.<BR>With everyone else it's just "why don't your just move on, he cheated on you. That's what I would do." It's not that simple.<P>boozy--<P>Trouble is, I've been through all this before, same OW three years later. He decided...back to me....decided....back to her...he can't really decide anything (really I don't think he's trying to decide). I think he knows what's best for him but she has things to offer him I can never offer....freedom from responsiblity,<BR>return to adolescence, indulgence and excess. Not sure all the Plan A in the world can change that. All I can hope to do is be there when he get tired of it all...but my patience is growing thin.<P>OffononOff<P>That sounds like a perfect decription of my H. Off...on...on...off...to infinite, as long as both of us will put up with it.<BR>But I thank you for your good wishes.<P>MaryKay:<P>Lordy, I threw him out weeks ago. I just have to keep working with him because we have a business together. He's living with OW. I see him every day, we have lunch together, we talk family, chit-chat, etc., everything but what's going on. <P>If left to himself we would never discuss it...he is perfectly content to just let us dangle in the wind while he does this little thing for a while...then he'll be back (he thinks).<P>I don't have any doubts about kicking him out. The situation with OW phoning in middle of night and him running out to meet her and disappearing for days was just intolerable.<BR>Finally ended when she came over to my house, went around to back window and scratched on window until she woke him up.<BR>Then he was gone. When he wanted to come back, I wouldn't let him.<P>Thank for all the support, don't know how I would make it without you all (that's Texas talk, you know). I don't post topics often but I do read posts and reply and sometimes I find solace in reading that others have similar problems and still making it happen. <P>Til the next time.<P>Buffy<P> <P> <BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 22, 2000).]

Yes Buffy, your H is acting like a class A schmuck! You don't deserve this treatment but you know what .. I bet you at one time he treated you like you were the only woman on earth, I know my H did. I simply lapped it up and basked in it. We want that back, don't we, Hon? We deserve it too. <P>Thats why we're here, to try and start over with them. Like it was in the beginning but better because now we have the tools and the know how from the MB principals.<P>If they'd only "SEE" us again. We are the persons that took care of them when they were sick, during the lean years we made a feast of Mac & cheese, we pinched pennies and saved to buy them the most thoughtful gifts for their Bdays, we laughed at their stupid jokes, and picked up their dirty clothes, we tried to make them proud to call us their wives and they did love us for all of it.<P>And I pray and believe we can one day be in their hearts again, but better and more committed than ever.<P>I'm so sorry your H feels okay to just pick up and spend the week-end w/OW. It's so damn hurtful. He hasn't got a clue what your hurt feels like. He isn't "seeing" you because he's being so selfish, all he sees are his needs. And right now they're being met by both you and OW. He hasn't really suffered any consequences for his hurtful actions.<P>But I believe eventually the OW will get tired and maybe angry with his ambivalence. She'll want a commitment and you outta the picture (LB). He won't be able to do that becuz she's not meeting all his needs.<P>Time will tell Buffy. You've done so good in Plan A and you're right, this isn't fair, it stinks.<P>This is just another BIG bump on the rollercoaster. Did something particular trigger it, Buffy?<P>Jo<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>If they'd only "SEE" us again. We are the persons that took care of them when they were sick, during the lean years we made a feast of Mac & cheese, we pinched pennies and saved to buy them the most thoughtful gifts for their Bdays, we laughed at their stupid jokes, and picked up their dirty clothes, we tried to make them proud to call us their wives and they did love us for all of it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Jo, this brought tears to my eyes. All the lean years through nine years of college and law school...two kids in diapers...no money...but you thought it would all be worth it one day...thought it was all appreciated and he would never forget...but he did.<P>No, no particular trigger. I just think you stuff all this hurt down inside and try to Plan A your best, but it's still there just below the surface and sometimes it just bursts out like it can't be contained anymore. At least I don't lash out at him so much anymore.<P>Partly it's the leaving and going back to OW, putting me aside for two days while he devotes himself to her.<P>You would think it would be harder to not see him for days or weeks on end, but I don't think it is. It's in your face everyday...the calls, trips for groceries for him and her, e-mails from her poor husband (he doesn't know what's going on). <P>All this is orchestrated to irritate me of course so I try not to let it bother me.<BR>But after a week of it, I'm whipped.<P>But I'll be back in stride Monday, refreshed and revigorated for a new try. I should be thanking the Lord for weekends.<P>At least H's OW has the good sense to not do some of the things you're H's OW has done.<BR>Talk about trashy. Hope you get her good.<P>Buffy<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 22, 2000).]

I truly empathize Buffy, having this going on all week long, it must be so draining. And then have him casually, with his twisted sense of rightness, take off and stay with OW for the two days must be unbelievably painful.<P>I did it (Plan A) for about 8 mos, it was the most emotionally and physically draining experience I've ever had. Every morning I felt like I had swam the English Channel, I was exhausted and had to get up and start swimming again. During that time my pat and best responses to H were "I see, I understand, okay". That's all I could say. But I really did listen to him, it was just hard to filter out the blame stuff, so instead of giving an angry or defensive response I gave my pat answer. <P>I have to admit that being separated right now is a whole lot easier. I'm able to take care of myself and I actually sleep full nights some nights. I don't think I would have made it if he stayed and continued his behavior.<P>Buffy, he's not doing this to hurt you. He's not engineering all of this to target you and fill your heart with pain. He's experiencing a crisis of his own and dealing with it by going for what makes him feel good. That's why he spends time with you, you make him feel good. But the OW also makes him feel good, so he goes back and forth. It's all about him, not about what will hurt Buffy.<P>You're such a smart woman, I know somewhere inside you know he probably needs you more than ever right now, that's why you're sticking this out. But sometimes the emotional part of you kicks in and wants to have your needs met too and righly so. So do your best to meet your own needs for now, be really good to yourself, don't beat yourself up over this thing that you simply can't control.<P>I'll be here if you want to chat some more. You have always answered my posts and have helped me so many times, I can't tell you what that means to me.<P>Best,<BR>Jo

Jo..<P>"I see, I understand, okay" Your response reminds me how this week he was telling me about the trailer house he and OW are living in having no air conditioner (an impossible condition in Texas in the middle of July) and it being 10:00 o'clock at night before it was cool enough to lay down to sleep. <BR>And one of the screens was loose so there were big flys buzzing around. I said "I see, I understand, okay" but inside I was laughing my heart out. Next day it was he missed Cable TV. <P>Well, I'm thinking of him as I sit here in my air-conditioned, fly-free, 100 channel cable-tv equipped home...and I'm thinking....sucker...what a man will do for a little flattery. <P>You of course are right...we just need someone to tell us it's for the best and it will all be worth it, we're certainly not ever going to hear that from our Hs.<P>Well, thanks for being here. I think my tear-weary eyes are telling me its time for sleep. Thank God for MB and this board. I don't know what I would do without it.<P>Buffy <P><BR>

Hi Buffy,<BR> Yeah, once again, I know exactly what you are going through. My wife also had another affair 3 years ago, except it was with a different man than she is with now. That is what is making this time around so much more difficult. She keeps telling me stuff like we aren't meant to be together if things like this happen twice, and that good marriages don't need work, and that life is too short - why spend it with a person who doesn't make you happy, and that she has always been a 'people pleaser' and that now she realizes that she has to do what she wants for once and she doesn't care what anybody thinks (selfish or what !!). You are right, things like freedom from responsibility, indulgence, etc are driving our spouses to be like this. <P> All I can say that, right now, I am scared. She was supposed to be home yesterday, but, she decided to stay another night (she must REALLY be having a good time). I finally got in touch with her a few minutes ago on her cell phone ........ she sounded pissed off that even called, and I know that she is going to come home tonight, and tell me that she wants a separation (she has been pondering it for a few weeks). I am going to have a VERY long day today.<P> But enough about me .... wow ... the OW actually came to your place to wake up your H ??? That is just horrible. Any W that would do something like that can't have any morals at all. How can your H even think he can have a future with a W who will do things like that ?? Believe me, your H will realize this one day. Just keep doing an excellent Plan A, and he has to wake up one day. It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and you know what you are doing, and you know where you want to go. You will get through this.<P> Resilient and Buffy ........ you are both separated ... is it really easier on you now that you are separated ?? I don't think I can handle it if my wife leaves. It has gotta be tougher to Plan A if you only see your spouse now and then??<P>Boozy

Oops, I just read over my reply after I posted it .... I think I used the 'W' abbreviation incorrectly !! I wanted to write "How can your H even think he can have a future with a WOMAN (not W) who will do things like that" ........... I think you know what I mean !!!!!!!!! Sorry for the confusion ....... It is early, and I didn't sleep well last night.

Hey there Boozy,<P>Separated? Yes, I am. It's hard to be away from my H but it's a hellava lot easier than when he was here.<P>I plan A'd to the hilt. He said many times how wonderful I had been. Now that he's gone I can work on myself, I needed to take care of myself, my health was suffering.<P>H was the classic Betrayer at home, all the lies, the blame (BIG BLAME) and the guilt were there. It was hidious and I spent most of those 8 mos scrambling around trying to please him and not LB. <P>Now looking back I wouldn't have changed a thing, I showed him I loved him and cared for him. I showed him I could be the understanding wife he needed and I left his love bank with some good deposits. Would I do it again? Well, right now I don't have the energy physically but taking some time to regroup, think, pray and continue to work on myself, maybe I could. Plan A is not for Whimps, either is Plan B. Actually, trying to survive an A is not for Whimps, period.<P>I think this is God's plan for me right now, to be alone and see things clearer, without being neck deep in it. My H continues to try contacting me but I'm not ready for it. I'm just going with how I feel and what my heart tells me. I consider myself in a pseudo Plan B for now. No letter sent to H, just some emotional distance for me to think.<P>Hope I've somewhat answered your question regarding separation being easier,<P>Best,<BR>Jo

<P>Dear buffy, you DO have backbone. You're doing much more than I could do in your place. I've been plan A-ing but not consistently since I discovered these boards and am ready to withdraw from the triangle of H and OW already. I told our counselor and my H that it's too broken and fractured to fix last Thursday. I don't know if I can try Plan A much longer. You're stronger than you know, stronger than me. I can't help you by example, just by admiration and comparison. You ARE strong, you have a backbone.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She keeps telling me stuff like we aren't meant to be together if things like this happen twice, and that good marriages don't need work, and that life is too short -why spend it with a person who doesn't make you happy, and that she has always been a 'people pleaser' and that now she realizes that she has to do what she wants for once and she doesn't care what anybody thinks (selfish or what !!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>Yes Boozy, those are words I've heard too. Not the same words, but the meaning is the same. Let me paraphrase to clarify: "I am such a selfish b*****d (or b***h as the case may be) that I am going to do what I want to do right now, so I'll rationalize to myself and try to convince you that it's all your fault so that I go off into the dust and not feel any quilt because "I'm entitled to be happy for a change.""<P>And you truly can't reason with this kind of logic, because it's not logical. All you can do is let them do it, stand back and watch, and be there when it all falls apart.<BR>Because to do this they must find and surround themselves with other people who will support this type of lifestyle. People who the rest of us define as "the losers of the world." <P>And the maddening part of it is that before all this happen this was the sanest, more moral, upright person you have ever met.<BR>But people pleasers sometimes evolve into chameleons, who must find themselves through others because they have no firm assessment of who they are and draw their identify from those they are around. <P>This is especially dangerous when they get involved with a very manipulative type of person who is willing to use this vunerability to their own advantage.<P>The sheer distructiveness of the relationship is usually it's downfall...you can't take apart a person's world without doing them damage along the way. It's only a matter of time before they begin to blame the manipulator for their problems...for who else is left.<P>I feel for you as you are now at the starting point and you have only now to stand back and let it happen...separation if it's the only way she will have it or if you want it that way...or staying together while she works her feelings out. <P>Having been through it I feel that it will be separation....because this is the best way for the manipulator to work...freed from constrains of another person...and I'm sure he will convince her this is for the best.<P>But it's only for a while...and in the meantime you can continue to Plan A..growing stronger everyday, firm in the knowledge that her place is really with you because you are the one that loves her the most in all the world...enough to set her free to find out that she had what she really needed all along.<P>As for separation, this is a matter of what your think you can endure. If your wife is determined to see the OM that usually inflicts a heavy emotional toll on the S who's stuck in the middle and getting a lot of the abuse and neglect while the lovers are off doing their thing.<P>I simply could not take it. It's just better to be away from the everyday business of the affair and not have it thrown in your face every day. In my case, we are together every day at work so there is still time for Plan A.<P>Whatever she decides, you must know that the game is not over...it's really only just begun..but for now the battlefield is changing...and she must fight her fight alone for now...but you will be the calvary that comes in to save the day at the end.<P>The honor is not in the victory, but how we fought the war.<P>Buffy<BR> <P> <P> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 23, 2000).]

Belle, How've you been.<P>You haven't been posting here enough lately, or I have missed your posts.<P>Everytime I think of you I remember your story about the dog next door and how you took it to the vet to be put to sleep and why. That sounded so much like something I would do.<P>If backbone is doing what you have to do even when it hurts like h*ll, I quess we all have backbone. But I am trying to think of it as like I heard someone say one time:<P>"There are times when God puts you in a particular place because he knows your strength, knows that you can stand the trial,and trusts you to do his work."<P>All of us have things to learn in this struggle...we have only to let him teach us what they are.<P>Buffy<BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 23, 2000).]

Hi, Friends:<P>Well the Lord gave me a reminder tonight of just who is in charge.<P>I was at my son's home visiting with my DIL, kids and a friend, when lo and behold who should appear at the door but H.<P>Seems he had a flat tire near there and drove there for our son to help...son arranged for someone to come fix the tire...after the tire was fixed...H chatted with us for quite a while and then left. <P>I had seen him earlier at Wal-mart about 3:30 p.m. and he had called me and left msg on my ans machine. By the time of the flat he had been in town for about four or five hours (8:30 by then)....30 miles from where he lives with OW...on a Saturday Night...and he was alone. She never leaves him alone on a Saturday Night...so something was going on.<P>I think this was God's way of saying "Hey, I'm taking care of everything. Don't worry. Just wait and see." So maybe I better just let him.<P>Buffy

Hi Buffy,<BR> thanks once again for your words of encouragement. As I feared (and as you predicted), my wife asked for a separation tonight. She has already been looking for other places to move, and she plans to move out of our home by the end of this month. She also said that we should not see each other too much during this separation. This is not what I really wanted to happen. It has been a hard night on me. <P> The sad part, I am actually giving up hope that things will ever turn around for our marriage. She appears so sure in her words when she says that she is not happy, and that in her heart, she know she must be alone right now. She also told me that she realized her relationship with OM was just a fantasy, and she does not want to pursue that relationship in that manner ....... she just wants to be friends with him ?? Somehow, I really find that hard to believe. I think she doesn't want to look like the bad person in this separation (and leaving because of an affair would DEFINATELY look bad). So she pretends they broke up ?? She told me she does not want me looking through her things anymore (yes, I did it before...how else would I have know an affair was going on !!!). To me, her asking that only confirms the affair is not over.<P> Anyways, glad to hear you made it throught the weekend alright !! I only hope I will have the same strength you show every week. Keep doing what you are doing, and I know you will make it through this.<P>Boozy<BR>

[[[[[[[[[[[[Boozy]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]<P>Here's a hug for you because I know you probably need it right now, because I know how you're hurting.<P>Well, here you are. What do you do now? Before you do anything, please read this article:<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003711.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/003711.html</A> <P>This article deals with some theory in a book called "Tough Love" by Dr. James Dobson. There is some feeling that Harley and Dobson have similar approaches to restoring a marriage relationship, but differ in their approach to when it's time to let go. <BR> <BR>I think its important to handle your relationship with your wife, now at the time of separation, without pleading, laying on a guilt-trip or begging for more time. Harley and Dobson both advise not to do this but I think Dobson goes a little further in saying that you have to actually let them go, set them free, to make their own choices.<P>I don't see a conflict in respecting your wife enough to let her go and make her own choices and Plan A in that just because you set a person free doesn't mean you stop loving them and doesn't stop you from trying to restore their love for you.<P>One thing setting them free does do is free you. You walk away with your respect intact.<BR>You're saying to your wife:<P>"I understand that you feel our marriage has not been meeting your needs and that your need some time to work things through. I love you, but I'll not try to force you to stay. Perhaps time apart will give each of us the perspective to decide what went wrong in our marriage and if there is any way that we can repair it. Please let me know if your need anything. I will miss you, but I understand you are confused and need time to clear your mind."<P>While separated you can continue to Plan A as well as you would under a strict Harley plan. <P>This is how I have handled my separation and it has enabled us to continue to work on our relationship without as much animousity as possible. I feel some much stronger knowing that I am continuing to support my H while allowing him to resolve his own conflicts free from any attempts to punish or guilt him back into returning.<P>Hope tomorrow finds you a better day.<P>Buffy<P><BR> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 24, 2000).]

Thanks again Buffy,<BR> After reading your reply, plus the article you linked me to regarding "Tough Love", I definately understand what I must do. It does make sense to me .... the last thing I want to do is back my wife into a corner and make her feel trapped. Therefore, this is my plan:<P>- I will continue to Plan A for the next week while she is still around, If she asks for some time alone during this week (which she definately will do), I will enthusiastically comply.<P>- The day she leaves, I will write her a letter noting some of the things you and Dr. Dobson mention .. that is, "I love you, but I'll not try to force you to stay. Perhaps time apart will give each of us the perspective to decide what went wrong in our marriage and if there is any way that we can repair it ............ etc, etc"<P>- I will let her know that I will be here for her if she needs, me, but, it will be at her discretion. That is, I will not pester her, or call her, or try to see her, etc, etc.<P> At this time, I know I have to do this, and I am willing to give it a shot (even though I know it will not be easy). Thanks for the advice.<P>Boozy

Dear Buffy,<P>"By the time of the flat he had been in town for about four or five hours (8:30 by then)....30 miles from where he lives with OW...on a Saturday Night...and he was alone. She never leaves him alone on a Saturday Night...so something was going on." <P>High five, buffy! <P>See below:<BR>"I think this was God's way of saying "Hey, I'm taking care of everything. Don't worry. Just wait and see." So maybe I better just let him."<P>Yeah, you're right.<P>BTW, the dog I took to the vet's didn't live next door, but close by, (not really important) and his owner's voice was choking up when he asked on the phone if I would take care of this for him. I had always said "When his time comes, don't you let him go by himself. You hold him in your arms so that the last face he sees is someone who he loves. And if you can't do it, ask me, I will take him." I forgot that I'd written about that. He was a good ole dog. <P>I cried all afternoon, sat on my front porch steps with my head on my arms. I loved that old dog.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess