Quick update. H and I are still TALKING...<BR>Last night we were discussing Harleys principals. My H says he is turned off by seeing the words" betrayed & betrayers".<BR>He said when I first read that I was turned off immediately to reading anymore.<BR>For a site that is trying to rebuild a marriage those words are too personal.<BR>I asked what would you have preferred? <BR>H said , adulterer, cheater, even F. U. in the head... <BR>He said I wonder how many others are "turned off" from reading anymore just by those words. Would you ask the people on MB? <BR>He likes the terms used by Emily Brown"After the Affair". Has almost finished reading her book...<BR>From your experience how many have had their, "wayward spouses" turned off by the same words? <BR>H leaving to go out of town on job interview. He is taking our son and will be gone for 5 days. replys needed ASAP, <BR>Thanks Tyra <p>[This message has been edited by Tyra (edited July 25, 2000).]

Tyra,<P>I'm neither the betrayer or the brtrayed but I hope you don't mind my $.02. <P>I think the reason that Harley uses the terms he does is because they are accurate descitptions of the situation. Harley is also focused on real healing in a marriage not just a bandaid approach.<P>Much as an alcoholic must admit that they are alcoholics before they can start to recover from their addiction so must a betrayer be willing to admit what they have done. They have betrayed the trust on the person they vowed to love till death. It wasn't a slip up or a mistake and cheating is what you do on spelling test. An affair emotional or physical is betrayal! It is a harsh word because the reality of what was done is harsh.<P>We Americans love to use different words to soften the realities of our actions i.e. pro-choice, alternate lifestyle, white lie. Your H needs to admit what he has done and what that makes him - a betrayer. Then you, knowing that he fully understands what he has done to you and your marriage, can begin to forgive him and rebuild your marriage.<P>Mud<BR>

Personally, as the betrayer, i found these words a whole lot kinder than adulteress. But i also found that betrayer is what I am. I betrayed my husband and my vows. period.<P>my husband did not mind these words either. He said they are the perfect description.<P>mercy

I think betrayed/betrayer are okay terms to use. Any others seem to "lessen" what has happened.<P>He's probably turned off by it because it's what happened. He betrayed your trust.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

As a betrayer, I prefer that word to adulterer, and other harsher names thatI have used to describe my role in this mess.<P>I betrayed my H, Betrayed my marriage, betrayed myself. The label "Betrayer" has not deterred me from reading/posting.

I have to agree with SKM. I also betrayed my husband and am currently taking a painful stand to restore my marriage. I think the pain that is bestowed upon the betrayed as well as the betrayer, as a result of an EA is excruciating. My advise is this: Have your husband look up the meaning of the word, betray. This was my finding in Webster's: 1a. To be a traitor or to commit treason against. b. to be unfaithful or disloyal to. 2. to make known accidentally. 3. To reveal: indicate. 4. To lead astray: deceive. Need I say more. There are so many reasons that one or both partners would betray one another, and in this day and age, many times the intervention of a professional is necessary to bring to the surface the reasons that led to the EA. Also, I have read many a time, in different websites and other literature, that the betrayed needs to come to terms with what his/her contribution was/is that led to the EA. Please don't take this the wrong way. I only want to let you know that the betrayer and the betrayed played a part in what led up to the EA, and in order to truly move forward into the restoration process, that must be admitted by both. Seek Gods love and comfort in it, for His love is unconditional, and in all honesty, we should express that same love to our husbands/wives, for better or worse. I pray for all those that are the betrayers, as well as the betrayed. Prayer is powerful, try it.<BR>Love in Jesus' name<BR>Chi

This reply is not from Tyra, it's from Mitz, the "Betrayer" The following will probably generate a lot of responses, some good, some not so good. But in the words of Rhett to Scarlet, "Franlky, I don't give a damn" (Gone With The Wind) Here's my take on the choice of definitions....when I first came to this site the first thing I was greeted with was the term "Betrayer" which immediately turned me off. I understand what I did was wrong, I not only bent my vows I broke the hell out of them. But, to see the negative connotation that the words "betrayer and betrayed" bring is like a slap in the face. I know some of you will agree that maybe that's what it takes....a slap to make those of us who have "strayed" to realize what we have done and the people we have hurt including ourselves. I for one do not visit this site because of the use of those two terms. I know what I did and I am dealing with it the best way I know how. I have read posts that Tyra has printed for me and I have not read anything yet from anyone that has given me any reasons to continue coming or reading anymore from this site. I feel it is very biased toward the "Betrayed" with little or no thought given to the reasons why the "Betrayer" did what he/she did.<P>Mitz, the Betrayer.......sheeeesh.......<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tyra:<BR><B>I feel it is very biased toward the "Betrayed" with little or no thought given to the reasons why the "Betrayer" did what he/she did.<P>Mitz, the Betrayer.......sheeeesh.......<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mitz, you are welcome too, and I'll call you whatever you like. But this quote is definitely not true, nothing could be farther...<P>Have you read enough to make such a sweeping statement??<P>I have many friends on both sides of affairs from this site. I have given SO MUCH THOUGHT to why my h did what he did, and understanding each other and changing to better meet each other's needs has resulted in a wonderful relationship, better than it was before he cheated.<P>

Well ... my H objects to the term "affair." He didn't have one, you see. He "fooled around." Same thing, but that's the way he sees it. Whatever. Similarly, he doesn't like the word "cheater," but that's what he did. If I have to argue with him over some ridiculous PC term that we can both come to an agreement on, why would we possibly want to go to therapy together to heal the marriage?<P>belld

Call yourself whatever you wish, that would be my bet. I think that maybe these things hurt you because your in an extremely sensitive spot right now but in the overall scheme of things who cares what the name is, it's a problem that you BOTH are facing, whatever your role in the problem. <BR>Most people come to this board wanting to hear both sides objectively, not critically, so be assured that we don't mind what you call yourself, just welcome!

Tyra,<P>I too prefer the the words betrayed and betrayer. They are very succint and do not have the character assination connotations that adulterer and cheater hold. MHO<P><BR>Bill

"Betray?" "Affair?" What's that?!!! <P>My husband says that it was just a case of "Really Good Friends Taking it a Little Too Far." (He told me flat out that he didn't "cheat" on me--he just slept with another woman. This is coming from a man who has a 160 IQ and has direct supervision of at least 25 people at his job. DUH!!) Can you say denial, boys and girls?

I really doubt that there are any words that could be used that would not offend someone in this situation. Perhaps the terms "wayward" and "faithful" would not be so offensive to Tyra's husband, but they would offend someone else just as much.<P>When I first found this site I would have chosen something like "lying, cheating, idiot" and "perfect, innocent, victim". But I'm back to the real world now!!!!<P>If someone is looking for something to be offended or turned off by, it's always easy to find. It would be a shame for anyone to dismiss the help available here because they choose to take offense, but that IS their choice to make.<P>My father always used to say "Don't expect everybody else to change to suit you, you need to change to suit the situation or change to a more suitable location".<P>Peppermint<p>[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited July 26, 2000).]

"That which we call a rose by any other name, would smell as sweet." ~Shakespeare<p>Peace, ~Marie<p>[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</p>

Bernzini,<P>Give me a high five, girlfriend! <P>My H refuses to call it an affair because, he says, we were living apart. Why were we living apart? Because he left me. Why did he leave me? To move in with the OW. Apparently this man's semantics vary, depending on how innocent he wants to portray himself.<P>Oh - and when he moved back in and continued to see her, but not have sex with her? And all of this was done in complete secrecy? That was not an affair either, because there was no sex involved. They were just "friends." Funny I didn't know about this friendship until I had to snoop around and find out about it, eh?<P>I really cannot believe that some of these men are so in denial. I get the feeling that H is still trying to protect the OW, even though it's over. And I don't understand that. All it takes was a five-month affair, and he's loyal to her memory for life? Please.<P>belld

How about "marriage-challenged"? No matter what label you choose to identify yourself with it ain't gonna change what you did.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tyra AKA Mitz:<BR><B>This reply is not from Tyra, it's from Mitz, the "Betrayer"... I for one do not visit this site because of the use of those two terms... I have read posts that Tyra has printed for me and I have not read anything yet from anyone that has given me any reasons to continue coming or reading anymore from this site. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you find the posts on these forums of no value just stick to Dr. Harley's principles. If you haven't already done so read about Emotional needs, Love bank deposites, Love busting and the policy of Joint Agreement etc. I don't think you will find the word "betrayer" anywhere in those areas of this web site. These are principles that will help heal your marriage and protect if from another, what word shall I use here, adulterous incident. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tyra AKA Mitz:<BR><B>I feel it (this site) is very biased toward the "Betrayed" with little or no thought given to the reasons why the "Betrayer" did what he/she did.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This web site is biased towards healthy marriages. Dr. Harley principles came out of what were the root causes for affairs. Also there are many places in Dr. Harley's material that talk specifically about the pain the wayward spouse feels when an affair either physical or emotional ends. <P>Mitz, stay away from the forums and brush up on Dr. Haley's guidelines. Read one of his books but don't try to fix this with your own knowledge or wisdom. That has already proven faulty.<P>Mud<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mudder (edited July 26, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by belldandy:<BR>[B]Bernzini,<P>Are we married to the same dude or something?<BR> <BR>He works so hard laying the guilt on me when I ask why, why, why? He tells me it's because we were having such a hard time in our marriage, he didn't see any hope for working it out. And why were we having such a hard time? Because he was secretely seeing her and ignoring everything that I did to attempt to reach him, be good to him and love him. He was pushing me out of the way. That's why we were having a hard time!<P>He says our relationship sucked, that's why he did it. He says it has nothing to do with meeting her. It is so strange how the relationship didn't become totally "hopeless" until he met her.<P>He asked me for a divorce the day after Christmas, telling me that we were incompatible. I was beside myself with grief, but I set him free. (Little did I know that he had a hot date for New Year's waiting for him.) After taking her for a test drive, he tearfully called me up two months later and told me that he wanted to work things out and that he loved me. I was estatic. Days later, he called again and told me it was only for the sake of the children, nothing else, and that I would make a fine roommate. This Sunday School teacher was yelling "What the HELL is the matter with you?!!!<P>I wished that I had never found out what was the matter with him. I would have been content to being blind and watching him act weird around the house, sulking and pining for his Miss Kitty. Picking fights with me and staying up all night staring into space. Maybe he would have forgotten about her with time.<P>I am lucky in the fact that his jobtook him out of her geographical area so he could forget her ugly face. I take it that you are not so lucky in that department.<P>If you could just pick up and move, then it would help. Let me guess--he's a farmer or cowboy?<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited August 15, 2000).]

This is Tyra, not MITZ....<BR>Thanks to all that replied to my H.<BR>He read everything that was written before he left today. <BR>I'm not sure it did much good. But I think it's always best to get other's perspectives, before making a decision.<BR>I know right now my H is reacting to his "feelings" more than anything else.<BR>I have given him all of Harley's books to read. Can't quite figure it out, he reads them until he finds something he disagrees with and then ususally stops reading.<BR>At least I see this as a small ray of hope that he is still asking questions and occasionally will discuss what he has read.<BR>I hope after he returns from his job interview (out of state) that our life will get back to some sort of steady direction, instead of being in limbo....No matter what that is. I would prefer to continue working on the marriage, but am not sure H is ready to do that. He is still trying to hang on to the memory of OW.<BR>Maybe because she told him before he left MN that they could be together in 3 years, after her daughter is out of the house. <BR>I guess he is waiting to see if HE can wait 3 years....I know I can't. <BR>I could care less HOW she feels, or about her daughter....If she is putting her daughter before him now, she will always find something or someone to put before him, he just can't see that....<BR>I know our son will grow up and move out like our other children, but they will always be a part of my life. So in essense they are never really gone...<BR>Her daughter will be that way too.<BR>Oh well if that is the way he wants it, and the words betrayed or betrayer is what is stopping him from rebuilding or committing, then he isn't ready to do that and I must accept that....<BR>Thanks again for your help.<BR>You have helped me in many ways, and I welcome hearing many opinions...<BR>Tyra<BR>

Bernzini,<P>I feel a strong kinship with you, because it seems like your situation and mine are so similar. I got the same rationale, that the marriage was hopelessly screwed up. Well, duh. He was living with her and lying to me that he was living with friends, all under the guise of "needing space." The rationalizations floor me. I'm starting a new topic about this. I don't want to hijack this one. I have much to say about forgiveness; however, there is still a lot of resentment in my heart for the way he treated me. <P>belld