Hello again folks,<P>This is my third post today within the last 3 hours. Shows you how contact with my H effects me.<P>Well he called me this afternoon. Said he just wanted to clarify some things he said yesterday.<P>Said he didn't mean to say that he would ever consider marrying OW, said he will NEVER marry her, PERIOD. Then said he's trying to figure out what he wants for the next 20 years of his life, and if I don't allow him contact how will he know IF he comes back whether or not I'll be resentful of him and the things he's done. And that scrares him.<P>I explained to him that I Plan A'd him for 8 mos or better and that to protect what deposits I have left in my love bank that I needed to Plan B, which is no contact so I can protect my love for him and protect him from me LBing.<P>He asked "what about me? the spouse, if you don't let me see you and talk to you then my love bank deposits will deplete and it'll be empty."<P>I didn't know what to say...<P>How do I address this? What is the answer?<P>Jo <P>------------------<BR>Josie_Res@Hotmail.com<P>"Remain flexible like a reed, as opposed to an oak which can snap in the wind"<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 27, 2000).]

Hi Resilient<P>Love your user name. What I can make from Plan B is that it is for you. The units that are still in your lovebank from your husband will not deplete. Those units will allow you to still feel a certain amount of love for him instead of them being depleted by negative contact with him which usually takes units out of the lovebank. I can understand his concern about no contact not allowing him to either deposit or withdraw units. BUT Plan B is for you to allow him to see where he wants to deposit his LU's either in OW's Lovebank or in yours. He cannot deposit in both. <P>If and when he has made his mind up about whose bank he is putting his LU's into then he will either get contact with you or he won't. In laymans terms: He will not get depositing or withdrawing from your lovebank until he gets rid of OW. Cut and dried. If he still needs further explanation tell him you would like to still have some feelings left for him whichever way the situation goes but fear that he will destroy all your funds with his continued inability to make a decision.<P>I hope this helps you and your husband get through this nightmare. My feeling about your husband is that he wants you but is frightened that if it does not work out he will be left with no-one. Although, he does not appear to have much with regards to the OW, she seems to be his security blanket. <P>You go girl, do not give him your power again. He has had it before and abused it, you keep it where it belongs with you. But do it calmly and with gentleness.<P>FET

Give him phone # and address!! And then keep going on your own path to happiness and self-improvement. Your life is about you. It's your story--move on and make yourself the best person you can.<P>What can you do to keep yourself occupied while he makes up his mind? I don't know your situation, but here's some of the stuff that I have done in the past to help me get through things:<P>GO TO THE GYM!!!--weight-lifting, aerobics, swimming--I love it! (If it's been awhile, start with long walks. I love that, too. Walking helps you think.) A super way to meet people, blow off some stress, keep your mind busy. And how great you'll look!<P>Volunteer--hospital, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, Red Cross, church, anything. You will meet people, and helping others ALWAYS gets your mind off your own troubles.<P>Make friends--be a good friend. Call an old friend. Talk, don't hide away and be sad. Do you have children? Make sure to have lots of fun with them. Do you have a pet? If not, and you like animals and can keep one, then the resposibility of caring for a pet and the unconditional love that one can give you is a comfort (My cat, Cha-Cha, was the man in my life when H dumped me for OW. Slept on H's vacated pillow every night next to me.)<P>Go back to school, if you can. I love learning new things. Filling your mind is a great way to get rid of the icky stuff that is consuming it right now.<P>If you are religious, go to church, synagogue, Bible study, whatever. Defining where you come from and where you are going in the Big Picture of Life will help you put this trial into perspective. (Church is the right place to meet NICE guys, too.)<P>The day will come when he reflects upon the good times that you had together, and maybe he will call. . .<P>If not, you will already have experienced so many wonderful things in life to fill the void he left--how impressed he will be with you for improving yourself! And how stupid he will feel for abandoning you when he sees what he lost.<P>You can do it. Don't let this experience tell you that you are not an important person. Of course you are!<P>And if he doesn't come back?--Well, getting used to being out and about is the way to run into The NICE SENSIBLE guys that are out there. You won't meet one sitting at home being sad and bitter over the terrible thing that has happened to you.<P>In the meantime, he knows that you love him, he knows your phone number, and he knows that he had better act fast. Plan B--Yay!

You know Jo... It's so confusing trying to figure out what to do...for us and for them!! But you see..we can't figure it out for them. They have to figure it out for themselves.<P>My H is in exactly that type of limbo also. I can see it in him. I just can't do it for him. I know he is mad at me for not talking to him, especially since he says he does not want to marry OP. They are just "really close" coworkers..(blech!)<P>Now he acts like he is not talking to me since I am not talking to him.... <P>On vacation I visited a close girlfriend whose H is back in rehab for a relapse of his prescription drug habit (he's an MD with a long history of drug abuse and depression..scary isn't it)<P>She has been dealing with this for the 14 years of their marraige. (She had a long affair during the marraige as well).<P>When I listened to her tell me the things her H said to her it is almost verbatim of what we are hearing our H's say to us. If she tries to stop being codependent he says "what about me?" "what will I do" "where will I go". She is going to let him come back after this rehab because she is afraid he will end up dead or killing someone else (driving or a pt.) I can't say too much to her, just offer support.<P>Like me and you she has to do what she thinks is best and only do what she is willing to do.<P>But I see so many similarities in our situations. One counselor described my H's behavior as just like that of an alcoholic or drug abuser and said that until he confronts his issues he will go on down the same path losing more and more along the way.<P>I want my H to make it...for himself mostly and hopefully for the marraige (and the kids) I just don't want to lose myself or the kids along the way.<P>My H knows I love him. I tell him...I also tell him I am willing to do whatever it takes to make the marraige be the best it can be. I just told him I just don't think we can go forward under the present circumstances. The marraige counselor and his counselor told him the same.<P>He has to decide whether and when he will do what he needs to do.<P>Until then, I am not nasty, I am loving even if it is not in person. I take very good care of the kids and preserve their love for their dad. He sees them a lot...their connection is being reestablished. <P>Plan B is actually not making me fall out of love with him. (In some ways I think plan A was!!!) I am realizing that I love him the way love should be....unconditional. If he is that miserable because of me and the kids he is free to find "his happiness" elsewhere. I will never tarnish his relationship with his children.<P>In plan B I am also rediscovering me. I know you will do the right thing. Just try not to buy into his believe that you are responsible for his figuring this out. You are there to love him and work on the relationship!!!

Did you write him a Plan B letter?<P>No need to “explain” Plan B. Just tell him (in a letter) you love him and you still want the marriage but what he is doing is hurting you too much to continue being in contact with him. You are learning to understand what you did wrong in the marriage & are working on those issues. You are cutting off ALL contact with him to save what love you have for him.<P>You will talk with him about your relationship ONLY when he is willing to get rid of ow.<P>No little chats, no little letters, emails or messages. If he sends them, you can read/listen to them or not, but do not reply to him.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Hi Jo:<P>I skipped the "wedding ring" bit because H's hand got too big to wear it so hasn't worn it in years. <P>Hey, does your H read your posts here? Funny how he called to clarify what he said about marrying OW. Maybe he just very perceptive as well as being a quick thinker.<P>His little mind has been ticking away hasn't it. Ok, I think you stressed what's important ..that you Plan A'd for 8 month with no results and that you cannot continue because you may stop loving him so you're in Plan B...no contact until he loses OW.<P>I think Harley cautions us that going to Plan B is a last resort...that there is always the chance that the WS will move on with his life with OW or with someone else.<BR>Did your H pick up on that and use a little guilt on you?<P>I think however that Plan B is a temporary thing...not a thing that can be used for an extended period of time...just long enough to serve as a "shock therapy" for H to realize what he might be losing. A wake up call before the final curtain (divorce) comes down. <P>There have got to be time limits and consequences to everything (listen to me...five years into this...but I still believe it). You need to decide how much more of this you can stand...then take action accordingly.<P>Hi Nimblefingers....(just in case he's lurking).<P>Buffy<P><BR>

Jo, I'll say up front that my way of perceiving things may be totally off the wall. I tend to perceive things symbolically. If you can bear with me while I grapple with my own situation, I do believe our H's do remarkably similar things in admittedly different ways. <P>Both our H's are creative, talented guys with intense needs for admiration and praise. For the first 12 years of my marriage, I met those needs to the best of my ability. Whenever I encountered a conflict between his needs and my needs, I put his needs before mine. My perception is that he puts his needs before mine too (a perception I have to this day). I found myself wondering, when is it going to be my turn? Then I realized. It's never going to be my turn. His needs are always going to come first. <P>That's when I began to withdraw. A downward spiral of LBs, disrespectful judgements, and angry outbursts followed for many months. This is the part where I have a problem understanding how the MB principles are going to help my marriage. You read it over and over in the plan a posts... be nice as pie to them and expect nothing in return. I think to myself, that's the first 12 years of my marriage. Then I think, why should I be satisfied with nothing? Why should zero expectations be my only avenue to avoid disappointment? It's unacceptable. The theory, of course, is that eventually our H's will do the same for us that we do for them. Sorry, but 12 years of waiting is my limit!!! <P>Jo, I know that you've made similar efforts to be supportive of your H, and I'm not trying to imply that you have the same feelings as I do. My recollection of your story is that he took off with OW when you were diagnosed with cancer?? And he's asking "what about me" questions when you talk about Plan B? Granted, it's a legitimate question, but what it symbolizes to me is that he's not thinking about you. Only himself. This is what I think our H's have in common, and it really chaps my hide! <P>Ultimately, I think my marriage will succeed when he values me as much as he values himself. Wouldn't it be nice to have a H who will take care of you when you're sick, a H who will comfort you, a H who will protect you from harassers. Doesn't sound like you'd have any of those things if you took him back right now (the "as is" version of your H). I'm very hopeful for you Jo, but I'm very long windedly saying that you deserve a "new and improved" version of your H. I vote for a solid Plan B.

Hi Resilient -<P>Glad I stopped by.....this one is an easy one!!!! (and I certainly need easy ones now and then with my WAD around!Q)<P>H's question demonstrated how he didn't really LISTEN to what you said....<P>You said that Plan B would stop any LBs which means that YOU will no longer be contributing to any depletion of Loveunits from HIS lovebank......<P>HOW can you be responsible for it depleting? YOU won't be.....OW will be or he himself will mindwarp it.....<P>You built up loveunits with your Plan A (and some more perhaps since) He has not deposited into yours and has, in fact been withdrawing them with his situation......you are merely allowing yourself to keep what is left.<P>Your show of concern about the ever-important "HIM" is that you are protecting your love for him - which is the greatest show of care, love and respect you could give him. You are also showing your BELIEF that you will need those loveunits in the NEAR future when he (hopefully) decides what direction he wants life to continue.<P>So, your answer to him is that you are not taking away from his lovebank, but merely preserving yours.....his lovebank will now be his own concern!!! <P>Let's see what OW does to it and how well he protects what you have deposited.<P>Hope this helps Jo,<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba<BR>

Oh no, I'm fixing to attempt to explain WS.<BR>Have I lost my mind.<P>Oh well, here it is. I think H is asking if she withdraws from him and has no contact then that alone will serve as a LB to him and will result in loss of deposits to his lovebank.<P>You're dealing with a manipulator here...I don't think he's really trying to understand...he's trying to guilt you into not Plan B'ing him...by saying it will mean he might stop loving you...due to depletion of his lovebank...and that will be your fault.<P>A little knowledge goes a long way in the wrong hands. You could say he doesn't understand the concept or he doesn't care.<BR>He only cares how it can be used to help him.<P>Wish I felt differently about this...but I don't feel H is being honest about the whole thing. He's too ready with apt questions and answers for me. Could be he just wants to fence sit a little longer. Got one myself. <P>Buffy<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited July 28, 2000).]

You are so right Buffy....He is definitely being manipulative!!!!<P>That is why Resilient should stick to the facts of what the REALITY of the plans are.....<P>If she understands them well, she won't falter when he tries his "turn the guilt around to her" antics. <P>In other words, he's "playing" by himself. No more blaming can be done.<P>That's why I keep telling people to follow what they truly believe, want and need - when you do that, it is harder for any WS's of this type to keep you nuts with their manipulations.<P>If you believe that Plan B is what you need Jo and that it is a logical and sound plan......than that is what you do!!! <P>Write the letter though, like the plan says to do......Chris reiterated it on this thread I think.<P>Don't let him get you caught up in this.<P>Eye on the goal and take a steady route to it.......<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba<BR>

Sheba's right, Jo, if you stick to the pure Plan B then you will remove your H's ability to manipulate you. <P>Don't misunderstand, your H's manipulation of you is because he does love you, but he wants to stay in his present situation for a while and not lose you in the process. It's just coming down to the nitty-gritty with you and he's trying to stall some more. <P>He'll do what he has to do to maintain the status quo...and if you stick with the Plan B then you take away his ability to do so...because you take away his ability to influence you one way or the other unless he gives up OW, expresses his willing to recommit, and you allow him to come home.<P>Like Sheba says, it's up to you. If you feel you need more time in Plan A then go back and do some more, but if you continue with Plan B...make it a strong one because you'll need it with your H.<P>Buffy<BR>

Alright, I am going to go against what every one else said. I think you ought to go back to Plan A. Your H and you are finally talking. You've made some headway. He's indicated that he misses you, wants you, knows that he is dishonoring his wedding vows, and he has a new job that will probably put some distance between him and the hussy. Do you want to make it easier or harder for him to love you?<P>Sometimes our high ideals make it too much of a challenge for those we love to come back. It's humiliating. It's demanding. Love sometimes means swallowing your pride and pain so that they can find the same love within themselves. Yes, I know you have been doing all the sacrificing, but does mean you stop when hope is in sight?<P>Jo, if you want this man and this marriage, you have to do what is going to get you there. I think the Betrayers get to a point when they know they've been wrong and they see how they've hurt. They are scared that they are going to give up their comfort in their whores only to find that their spouse is too good for them, they don't deserve us, and we will see that and leave them. Then who will they have? A whore in the hand is better than nothing.<P>This is a challenge to show what a good Plan A-er you can be. His eyes are open now. He's looking for the love in you to see you both through. He needs to see that you are strong and are not going anywhere. There may still be an element of manipulation in there, but I believe that that is also overcome with your love. <P>My suggestion is to set a time limit in your mind as to how long you will allow his indecision to continue. This is not an ultimatum, but a limit for you. Give it 6 weeks. Doa strong Plan A, then if he's still on the fence, go to Plan B with a letter outlining what you are doing and why. If he tries to contact you then, don't allow it. If he doesn't understand, it will be up to him to find understanding in your Plan B letter or here on the forum. <P>At some point, he needs to take responsibility for his actions, his future and his understanding. Don't give up on him until you've exhausted your options. <P>That's my advice. Please let us know what you decide and how it's going. I think you are in reach of you goals. Don't give up now!<P>One more thing. I know your H has been horrible and has done everything under the sun to hurt you, but in some ways, it only shows how deeply attached you are. If you didn't react so passionately towards each other, even if it is seemingly in hate, you would know there is no feeling left. I believe love and hate are the different sides of the same coin. You have the power to make it positive or negative as long as you are still in the game. <p>[This message has been edited by popeye (edited July 28, 2000).]

There is a problem with going back and forth on plan B....I did that...and now I am in this situation where it did not shock him, just angered him and then he turned it around against me... "she's not talking to me, so I'm not talking to her"<P>I wish I had just stuck to my guns the first time. He melted then and whined to his mom and then I gave in....and he was coming towards me for awhile while I was doing plan A.....<P>but then he backed up, and became very comfortable with sitting on the fence.<P>BTW...My H is a good manipulator also...In the entire time I have known him I have never known him to accept any responsibility for his role in a situation..<P>Of course, I accepted that about him...he had never directed it towards me....well I guess my time was just coming!!!<P>Also Jo, I don't think you have to do plan B in a prideful manner. I think you can do it lovingly....just keep being a broken record. (nicely) You love him, understand what you need to do to help make it a great marraige, but want to talk to him when he wants to talk about the relationship.<P>ANd then focus on yourself!

You guys are way too wonderful.<P>Man, responses from what I consider all the heavy hitters.<P>Thank you so much Forevertrue, Bernzini, TooTrusting, Sheba, Chris, Buffy, Lonesome Heart and of course Popeye!<P>I don't know if any of you are in the exact same spot, waffeling between Plan A & B.<P>If my H is really indeed reaching out to me as Popeye perceives, then I feel I should give Plan A another shot ... <P>Popeye, you really think I have more Plan A in me???<P>I want to be able to reach deep inside my soul to find that strength where I can ignore the lies related to OW and those hurtful actions, like hanging up on me, because I want my H to see that I can put the resentment aside and show him my feelings run much deeper and truer. Plan A ... a possibility.<P>I read Mollie's posts and I'm at awe with how well she handles the fact her H is seeing both her and the OW. How he's treating her like she's the OW now, and lieing to OW. Talking about guts and a resolve, she's one very strong woman.<P>I know I can't continue to go back and forth between these two Plans, that's why I'm setting up a session with Steve Harley this week. I hope he can help counsel me to make a firm decision on what Plan to go with. <P>I do know from here on out I am not going to tout Plan B to my H unless I am 100% convinced it's time and I will stick to the Plan and it's agenda.<P>Yes, my H is manipulative and knows all my buttons very well. Right now, as a single dude, I think he's taking a look at me and OW and doing a mental Pros and Cons list of each of us. So I want to fill his Love Bank to capacity before I go to a full blown Plan B. That way I can be sure whether or not he comes back or not, that he'll remember me as a loving caring woman and see me in a positive light in his life whenever he thinks of me.<P>Again, thank you so much for helping me see the situation from another's perception. I'm at a point where I can't see the forest for the trees. And really need your support, I value it more than you could imagine.<P>Very Best to my Good Friends here on the MB Board and God's blessing on each of you!<P>With gratitude,<BR>Jo<P>

I think it is a great idea to talk to S. Harley. He was quite helpful to me in the beginning. I think if I had just waited and talked to him after the marraige counseling session here I might have been able to stay in plan A.<P>Now here I am in as best a plan B that I can do with kids and it aint so pretty. <P>My H sees the kids all the time....and calls them or I have to have them call him...and so I get to think about what is going on all the time...it is so unnerving. I'm still nowhere PLUS he is mad at me for plan B...<P>(of course everyone is still giving him a hard time about this...which i really wish they wouldn't...I think it just strenghthens his resolve NOT to come back even if he doesn't go to OP)<P>I think you can do it. (more plan A) But there has to be some way to do it so you don't feel manipulated!!! I hate to be maniputated....I minded it worse when it was OP manipulating me...I just got mad and thought he deserves to be swallowed by the *****.<P>An inner calm and patience seem to be key. A real understanding of the harley priciples and belief in emotional needs. (I believe so much in the MB principles but I think my hurt feelings got in the way at times)<P>Have the two of you discussed what needs he gets met by her??? Have you discussed how to meet his needs the way he would like them met?? What are his most important needs. It would seem that you could be in a great position to meet them....once you know what they are.