<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The main reason for this is my complete lack of tact and diplomacy, coupled with the fact that I will NOT be there for someone no matter what.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>WhoDat, that statement says it all and I truly for sorry for your wife and any friends you may have that may do something that you disagree with.

trying, you may not realize this, but a TRUE friend is someone who will risk that friendship to point out destructive behavior rather than enable it. <P>Sadly, I don't expect you to understand.<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Again<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>WhoDat, that statement says it all and I truly for sorry for your wife and any friends you may have that may do something that you disagree with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Trying, that's actually pretty funny. My brutal honesty is a badge of honor I wear, and those I care for know I'm always shooting straight. Sometimes it's straight from the hip, but why mess around with honesty? You cannot possibly turn my honesty into a negative, no matter how many times you cut and paste. LOL.<P>Believe me, I am VERY happy with my negotiation and marriage skills... and my wife is as well. We have hiccups, but that's to be expected... we're human. But we now possess the skills to work on them, and our marriage <I>thrives</I> thanks in no small part to Dr Harley and this Forum. That is likely why I defend the concepts so; I hope everyone has the same opportunity to restore their marriages, and seeing people give advice detrimental to healing that marriage MUST be answered. <P>I also have a few friends (not many; I'm one of those "many acquaintances, but only a few true friends" types), and if one of them was being an idiot, I would tell them, and tell them why. I wish someone had been so honest with ME three years ago, although I never would have listened.<P>Come to think of it, a couple friends WERE that honest, although I ignored their honesty, of course. I need to thank them again for that honesty, and for holding their ground and not "supporting" my affair.<P>You DO remember the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>Rule of Honesty,</A> don't you? It's one of those Harley concepts you hold in such contempt. It's very simple: tell the truth.<P>...and since you seem so adept at cutting and pasting, I'll leave you to post the last word you so crave. At least I haven't got a sense of you foaming at the mouth like your initial posts; they seem calmer, if not much more coherent. Knock yourself out.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhoDat:<BR><B>a TRUE friend is someone who will risk that friendship to point out destructive behavior rather than enable it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While I agree with this statement I am wondering.......if after pointing out their destructive behavior, what if using their own minds and thoughts they do the opposite of what you felt they should have done and they end up getting hurt, do you continue to be their friend and offer them support at that time, or because they have not followed your instructions, do you cast them off?

Instead of trying to beat each other up, why not stick to the topic?<P>Why is it NOT okay or okay to date while you are married?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Thanks Chris for slapping our hands and bringing us back to the topic. But I truly believe not everything is as black and white as some. Maybe it is due to the fact of my upbringing. My parents have been SEPERATED since I was 3 years old! That's right over 25 years of seperation, living in different states and all (thank goodness)! At first they didn't divorce because my Mother didn't have the money to afford it, since dear old pappy left her with the kids and all the bills to attend to alone, while he drove fancy cars. Why she never went to court for child-support is her stubboness to make it on her own. Now after all these years, she has just never gotten around to it becuase in her heart she feels like she is divorced and she doesn't need the paper to say it, she feels divorced and they both live seperate lives as divorced people. Actually, I think everyone forgets that they never took care of it legally. Neither have ever remarried but both have had relationships. I do think it is wierd how my father has never filed for divorce, especially since he is the one that is in a long-term relationship and if he dies my Mother could legally still get his stuff (whatever that may be), so that does suprise me that his partner has never pushed for him to take care of this legally. Do i consider my mother to be cheating on dear old dad after over 25 years of seperation. HE%% NO! So to me not everything is as black and white, to say..."She's married so she should continue waiting for my father to return to her". Though i DO think for legal reasons they should take care of this.

What exactly is considered to be dating?<P>Since discovering my W's affair this time last year, I have confided my marital problems with a very close female friend, who also happens to be divorced and knock out gorgeous, that I have known since 1984 when we were in college together. We also happen to work together and see each other almost daily. We have never, ever thought of each other as nothing more but friends, we go to lunch together at least once per week, when she was in very bad auto accident and was forced to stay at home for a couple of weeks, I visited her to keep her company, would these lunches or home visits be considered dating? <P>I would also like to mention that being a woman and being able to give me a woman's perspective on things, she has helped me tremendously in working on my marriage, just as many of women on this site have done. She has helped me and my MANLY-MAN way of thinking to see things from a woman's eyes, and yet we have never ventured from being nothing more than friends, which is why I don't understand how people here can be so unyielding in their thoughts. It is <B>possible</B> to have different sex friends without it turning sexual as long as EVERYBODY knows the boundries.

FA,<P>This is JMHO, but men and women cannot achieve the same level of platonic closeness that one can with a friend of the same sex. That is because one person will always be sexually attracted to the other. I have tried to have male friends over the years, and each time, it ended in disaster. While my end of it was platonic, they were busy falling in love. Didn't matter if I was married, engaged, or dating. My platonic male friends still fell in love. I have ended all of my platonic relationships with men with the exception of one, and I make sure that my H is present whenever he is around. We do not do things alone. <P>I think that the only circumstance in which a person can interact with a platonic friend of the opposite sex is if the spouse is present. I think that even going to lunch with a colleague of the opposite sex is tempting providence, unless there is a group of people going together, and the two friends are not alone. People might think that this is rigid, but if you are having lunch with someone who is of the opposite sex who is not your relative, you are on a date. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's a duck.<P>Put yourself in a situation conducive to sexual attraction arising, and it will happen. The easiest way to get into an affair without really knowing it is to share very intimate information with a friend of the opposite sex whom you think is attractive. My advice is to run away from these kinds of friendships as fast as you can. This kind of "innocent friendship" is exactly what got my H into a long-term affair. So I know of what I speak.<P>belld<P>P.S. For those of you who still think it's okay to see platonic friends of the opposite sex alone, remember this rule: After eight, it's a date.

Hey, someone, pass me a beer....and the chips, too!<P>This is "real life" Jerry Springer stuff...<P>-------------------------------------<P>A few quotes to help:<P>"Nothing can bring you peace but yourself" ~Ralph Waldo Emerson<P>"Whatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson<P>"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." ~Albert Einstein<P>"Never look down on anybody, unless you are going to help them up." ~Rev. Jesse Jackson<P><BR>

OK,<P>What is going on here? Fighting amongst the troops? Hey, this is Marriage Builders! If you are not interested in making the marriage work you are in the wrong place. I am so sick and tired of the fighting. Knock it the **** off!<P>Everyone has their own opinions and I can appreciate that, you want to start something, take it outside, GET IT!<P>I have been here well over a year and there was never the type of behavior exhibited like it is today. <P>You post and ask for advice, don't get mad when you get it. You may not like what you hear, but life sucks for everyone.<P>Zippy the Pinhead who is tired of the ****

After 8, it's a Date???<P>Never heard that one, Belldandy.<P>Okay, here goes. Here's my take on opposite sex friendships during separation or pending divorce.<P>Ask yourself this question:<P>If you want your marriage back, would you openly and without guilt have this same friendship in front of your Spouse? Would you be having the same conversations and telling this person the same things, would you be going to the same places and spending the same amount of time with them if you weren't separated and you were happily married?<P>If your answer is "No", that would tell me your relationship is more than platonic. And it's potentially dangerous.<P>If you answer "Yes", then I would think your relationship is above board and not a threat to you rebuilding your marriage.<P>That's how I look at it.<P>Jo<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited July 20, 2000).]

Jo,<P>That is a very sensible reply. And one that I would have given, oh, a year ago. I always trusted my H's judgment when it came to women friends, as I had met most of them and was friends with them, as well. However, the playing field has changed. Every potential female "friend" is a big landmine. If the affair hadn't happened, maybe I'd be willing to give my H the benefit of the doubt. Maybe in time, I will be able to trust him again. But for the time being, if we get back together, no female friends unless I am present.<P>I do not trust him. He has to work to restore that trust.<P>belld

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><P>I think that the only circumstance in which a person can interact with a platonic friend of the opposite sex is if the spouse is present. I think that even going to lunch with a colleague of the opposite sex is tempting providence, unless there is a group of people going together, and the two friends are not alone. People might think that this is rigid, but if you are having lunch with someone who is of the opposite sex who is not your relative, you are on a date.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I totally disagree. While most of my friends are in fact men, I do have some women friends, and I have never slept with any of them, the subject has never even came up. I have known these women for years and they have helped me through some trying times, including failed relationships, and I have done the same for them. While I would have to agree that close friendships between opposite sexes can and do lead to "intimate" relationships, not all of them do, some do remain platonic. Which takes me back to missy, yes there is the possibility that it could develop into more than a platonic relationship, but there is also the possibility that it could remain just that, platonic. I keep hearing of everyone's experiences, but my own personal experience has been that women, and not men, have been of much more help to me during these types of difficult times and I have yet to sleep with one of them, everyone's situation is different, don't chop the ladies head off because she is doing something that is different from how you would do it.<P>

I went out, came back, and checked in when to find you guys were back at it again!! <P>Ladies and gentlemen, I think Missy has just left the building.<P>The original post was that her H is a shmuck and she's starting to have "exciting feelings" again for her new male friend. A friendship based on mutual affair trauma. She thinks of OM more than her H, the friendship is helping her lose all the love left for her H, etc. I took notes. <P>She then later posts it's just a friendship, nothing more. So she's deluding herself. Still nothing wrong with that. We just know that she's going to end up divorced (or happily separated for the next 25yrs with unresolved legal issues). She definitely won't end up happily reunited with her H. Still nothing "wrong" with that. I wish her happiness whatever her decision. <P>She sought advice here because she was a bit confused. She thought she could still be "working on her marriage" (in Plan B) while becoming emotionally involved with another man. Read her posts--she admits the attraction, then says it's just a movie/dinner/friendship. <P>F A: Congratulations on your platonic friendship with a drop-dead gorgeous woman.<BR>Are you very butt-ugly? <P>I am SO only kidding!! You know I adore your post re: why you love your W!! <P><BR> <P>

Leilana, maybe that's been it all along....BUTT-UGLY!!!! LOL

FA,<P>FYI ... before we were married and my H was still single and living with another woman, he had an affair on his live-in with a workmate. A "platonic" friend whom he'd known and had lunch with many times for a couple of years. You might be different. But after my H had his affair, one of his very old friends told me, "Yeah, _____ always had a problem keeping his pecker in his pants when it came to women. But you knew that, didn't you?"<P>No. I did not know it. I wish I had. I've never had an affair with a work colleague. Especially not while I was involved with someone else. But it can happen and does happen. From what I hear, that's my H's M.O. - make female "platonic" friends and then sleep with them. Sorry, but I'm PMS-ing and very bitter today.<P>belld

Whew! So relieved you have a SOH and LedOL, F A!! <P>Sometimes I just can't manage to hit that delete button even tho I know I should.<P>Give us an update sometime, Miss. Even tho we can't come to an agreement here, I think I can safely say that we all care about you and wish you well. <P>Hey, maybe this might have been a good opportunity to try that negotiation stuff. I guess none of us are very good at it yet.<P>I feel like one of these days our unseen and mysterious forum moderator will throw down a lightning bolt or something on top of us when we get too unruly!

WOW-Sorry gang, didn't mean for this thread to take off the way it has. <P>I think I am even more confused now more than ever. <P>I have tried so hard to save my marriage. Lets just say that my h relationship with OW does not work out, does that automatically mean he will want to come back to me and the kids? I am not so sure. I think because he has already lost so much in destroying our family, he will do anything he has to to prove he made the right decision. That is honestly how I feel. <P>I feel like I am fighting a losing battle. I just don't know if I have the strength or desire to keep fighting. I am tired and I feel as thought I want to enjoy my life now. This friend of mine is just that a friend. Nothing has happened. I would be lying if I said something did happen. But, I would also be kidding myself if I didn't think it could lead to something more. I know that I like the way I feel when he is around. <P>I wish I had a crystal ball to look into my future to see what will happen.<P>I do remind myself on a daily basis that my h was a great h and what he is doing right now is the actions of an addict. I see him with a sickness. I do love him. Sometimes though when you love someone, you need to let them go to find themselves. My fear is that, this could take a few years and when its over there is no guarantee it will be a happy ending. <P>Again, sorry this post got so carried away. I do not want to cause any hard feeling between anyone on the board. I appreciate all your thoughts.<P>I'll keep you posted........

This is quite a thread you got goin' here missy! When I first read your message, I thought, well, I'd probably do the same thing. I've followed your posts and know what you've endured. It's stories like yours that keep me coming back to the infidelity board even though I have no infidelity in my marriage... which brings me to the topic of platonic relationships with members of the opposite sex. I'm here to tell you with a resounding yes that platonic relationships are definitely possible! That's exactly what I have with my H. (need an icon of only half of tongue in cheek). But seriously, I do believe that platonic relationships are entirely possible. I totally agree with Resilient's assessment. <P>Equally seriously, missy, I don't think you have the necessary ingredients here for a platonic relationship. If you decide to hold out hope for your marriage a little while longer, more power to you. If you decide it's time to move on, I'll be behind you all the way. I don't think you can have both. If you hold onto hope for your marriage and see this man also, I see a recipe for a sticky mess. (insert vision of I Love Lucy in the taffy factory here )