Tonight my W and I had long heart to heart talk about the future of our very young marriage(1yr 2mon). After much dancing around the issue she admitted to me that she will do anything to succeed(we are in the same career field), including step on or disgard me if that is what it takes. This, she said, "...is just something you have to know about me and it is who I am. I WANT to perform." <P>Since our first encounter with friction from being in the same field(I was booted from a group THAT I PUT TOGETHER and had included her when very few of our colleagues were asking her to play in their groups. She stood by and refused to voice any opposition to the powers that be so that she would get a chance to play with a world-class musician, our professor) I have had this nagging feeling that I was only so important to her. <P>You are probably wondering "Why did you get married stupid?!" Very simple, I loved her and I thought she loved me. <P>After the statement above it is amazing that she can follow that with "...but I love you and I want to make our marriage work. I just don't think it is going to work out in the end." <P>That single statement about her drive to succeed contains so many feelings and assumptions. It has hit me pretty hard. <P> "...I will do anything to succeed. Including make friends with those that dislike you, take another job in another part of the country with or without you moving with me, if I am the benefactor of preferrential treatment and the person ignores you it is OK, etc..."<P>The W I love has put me on notice...I can be replaced by success without so much as a flinch.<P>Does anyone see any hope in saving this marriage? I have repeatedly told her that it is early in our marriage and we can work out these career issues. Many of which do not exists because neither one of us has a job offer at this time! How can you live out the remaing years(or months) of a marriage knowing that at any time your W will do anything TO YOU to succeed? You are just another one of the rats in the race for "her" cheese.<P><p>[This message has been edited by anncicero2 (edited July 31, 2000).]

Welcome <B>anncicero2</B>...<P>I'm not sure I can add too many words for a situation like yours.<P>I would recommend that you have a couple of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> (~$95US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A> (888-639-1639)!<P>If your W is unwilling...<BR>...start on your own.<P>Use the resources on this site to start learning the right marital skills...<P>Books that can really help you are...<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>"His Needs, Her Needs"</A> and <BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6010_give.html" TARGET=_blank>"Give & Take: The Secret to Marital Compatibility"</A><P>They cover the main concepts of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>. These are the main goals of MB concepts... to build these skills.<P>If your W is too immature to want to learn these...<BR>I she doesn't see the need for counseling...<BR>...you may have a hard time of it...<P>but... you'll have done everything you can.<P>Don't give up hope too quickly...<P>Prayers... <P>Jim

Anncicero2-<P>When I read your post, something in it struck a cord in me. I'll try not to ramble, but when my H and I first got married, we went to pre-marital counseling. It was a weekend series of seminars, and in one seminar, the priest asked the potential Hs to go around the room and use one word to describe their potential spouse. Know what word my H picked? "Driven."<P>I was a little down-trodden and disappointed with the selected word - I thought perhaps he could have chosen any of the following words - kind, generous, considerate, smart, witty, intelligent. I would have even taken clean, smells nice (guess that's two words)and even stunning comes to mind. But he chose driven, and I really didn't know why.<P>Then, they had to go around the room and explain why they had chosen the word that they did. My H then explained that unlike any other woman he has ever met, I can set my mind on something - a goal - and then I achieve it. It's not blind ambition, but he said it's like I'm always striving to make myself a better person, I'm always learning and growing, doing whatever it takes to reach my goal. If I have to go back to school, I go back to school. If I have to take night classes, I take night classes.<P>So when you said that your wife's drive to succeed has hit you pretty hard, I can kind of understand how you must feel. I don't know if our society, our personality, or our egos, but some men/women feel as though power, prestige, recognition, etc. . .should come without a price. That's not so. I'm sure there are a hundred cliches out there about men and women who are truly successful, but are not truly happy. For me, I guess, I liked achieving my goals - because I liked the recognition and attention that came along with it. For me, it all boiled down to low self-esteem.<P>I don't think I'm a win at any cost type person, but in my experience people who NEED to achieve also are hungry for attention, too.<P>If you haven't read the book "His needs, Her needs" by Harley, you may want to get a copy for you and your W to read. My H and I are reading the book right now, and we're recognizing our needs and how each of us can fulfill those needs for each other. Right now, it sounds as if your W is willing to do anything to succeed in her chosen career - that's a priority for her. You need to decide, I guess, whether or not you love her enough to help her reach her goals.<P>By helping her reach her goals, I mean putting up with her contacts that may not like you, attending events that you may not enjoy attending, being her biggest fan while at times swallowing your own pride.<P>I think it's a pretty difficult situation for you, and yes, her comments hurt - they would hurt me. But, you need to look at it like - this is important to her, so it's important to you. Marriage should not be a competition. When the "rat race" is over don't you want to celebrate with someone.<P>I think you could talk to her until you're blue in the face about the perils of this "succeed at any cost" attitude, but with time and maturity, she'll learn for herself how to really prioritize her life's work. I don't want to ramble, but I have a sign in my office that reads:<P>"What is success? To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived; this is to have succeeded." (Emerson).<P>For me, life has been one big rat race. I keep this saying handy so that I can remind myself of the really important things in life. Maybe it will help you to figure out what it is you want out of life, too. You love your wife, I would focus on that, right now. Be a positive influence on her, and maybe her pursuit of happiness will not be to play with the biggest and brightest but be happily married to the man of her dreams. I know that's my goal now, to keep my marriage alive. Good luck to you.<P>

AC2,<P>Wow. Umm... She sounds like a tough cookie. <P> Those are some pretty heartless things to say to your spouse. <P> One thing you might mention to her... Fame, fortune, success are meaningless in the big picture of life. What matters is having someone by your side to revel in your good days, with you. Someone who shows joy for you is good for the soul. <P> She does not have her priorities straight. This is obvious. Have you told her how shocked and hurt you are... because now your vision of her is tarnished by her promise of doing *anything* to succeed?<BR> <BR> I wish I had better advice. Quick question... is her family like her? <P> Mynabird

anncicero,<BR>Well, at least she feels able to be honest with you. And you now are certain she is selfish and self-centered--those things tend to change over time and with personal growth can be strengths. You can't make another person change or take action, you can only try to influence them and live your life according to the way you believe it should be lived.<P>As I read your post, I wondered how she would have liked hearing those words from your lips--I'm not suggesting a turnabout, but perhaps a nonlovebusting discussion to raise her blinders. Do follow up on NSR's links.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Thank you all for the support, it has been a pretty tough summer. <P>Mynabird, yes and no. They are somewhat blunt to each other, usually in dealings with success and failure. Her father started out with nothing and became financial very successful. I think my W's unquestionable financial security has played a role in her recent attitude shift. <P>SKM, I fully support my W and want her to succeed. I have been her biggest fan. I suffered a hand injury that has slowed, and almost destroyed, my career prospects. I have begun to recover and my performance skills are growing everyday. This puts me in direct competition with my W. I will concede that that injury has so retarded my progress that my W will probably be the more successful of the two of us. She has simply been getting better everyday.<P>I just don't know if I should continue to fight for our marriage when she seems to now only pay lip-service to doing her part. Some of her other quotes were:<P>"...I hate being called a W. It seems like I'm owned by someone AND I'M NOT!..."<P>"...I'm too young. Everyone treats me wierd since I've gotten married." She's 25 and I'm 30.<P>"...I don't want any responsibility to anyone else! If I get a job offer, I want to go without hesitation or consideration for anyone else..."<P>"...You are going to just have to accept that life is not fair and there IS favortism out there...and if I'm am the reciepient, you better believe I'm going to accept it...If they don't like you, sorry."<P>"...don't lose who you are for me. I WILL NOT do it for you..."<P>All the while I'm telling her how shocked I am to hear these things from the one who's suppose to love me most and how evil some of these things are, she's telling me I'VE GOT THE PROBLEM and should seek counseling if I can't handle it. I have begun talking to a shrink. If it will save our marriage, so be it. Interesting enough, he strongly suggests that she come in as well. In his opinion, I'm not the only one *broken*, she has issues as well. She had originally said that she would be willing to come if he asked, however, since the shrink has said this she's giving signs that she will not go.<P> I know this may sound like I'm making this up or telling only one side of the story...but it is almost word-for-word! <P>One other topic she brought up was that there seems to be a lack of passion in our marriage. This nagging feeling I've had has grown over time with situations popping up that have tested us(I've posted some in Resolving Conflict--A Sticky One and Help!!! Also, under General Question but I can't remember the header). I believe I may have emotionally recoiled from her over time. I am now wondering how can I give her my complete devotion and love(as it should be in a marriage)knowing that at anytime, AND WITH HER OWN ADVANCED WARNING, she may chuck me in order to reach her goals? That is an unsettling thought when you consider what if something tragic like a major accident were to occur. I would become a liability to her and she would most likely cut me loose in my time of need. Or, I become successful but hard times hit and I need support from her. She's out of there! <P>Her words have under cut any feelings of security in our marriage or the belief in our wedding vows. We should have included "...in sickness and in health**conditions apply--don't bug me too much**...for richer or poorer**you'd better be succeessful**...till death due you part**or until I want to feel like a kid again and want to go out and play **..."

Couple more questions, and some advice...<P> How is *your* relationship with her family?<BR> Are/were either one of you involved in an affair? Just for clarity's sake.<P> Okay, just flying by the seat of my pants,here...<BR> Have you read over plans A & B on this site? Or some of the literature? If not, read some of it. I think you may benefit from following Plan A. There is also a forum here for ppl following these plans. They could offer you much more advice on these subjects. <BR> Let me say that I realize how hard it is to basically swallow your pride and do all you can to prove to your spouse that you would do anything to win their affection. Quite traumatizing, especially when you thought that battle was done when you married this person. Then you get a whopper like that laid at your feet. <P> Do you think you are capable of fighting for your marriage, when your main "adversary" is your spouse? I have a feeling that the answer is yes, otherwise you wouldn't be *here*. <P> Oh, another question (I know, I know, so far I've asked way more than a couple). How long did your wife and you know each other, before marrying?<P> I'll shut up, now.<BR> Mynabird

"How is *your* relationship with her family?<BR> Are/were either one of you involved in an affair?"<P>My relationship with her family is so-so. We are an inter-racial couple so that was a big shock for her family. Her mother is very easy to talk to and I like her. I have considered asking her advice about her daughter but I believe if my W found out I talked to her mother it would most likely push her even farther away. It may seem to her that I am gathering people to gang-up on her. Any advice on this? <P>Her father was not happy when we told him our plans to marry. It took some time for him to warm up to me but I think he is getting used to the idea. I don't think he would be too disappointed if we split. A big point of stress for her family, according to my W, is the that I am not Morman. My W stopped practicing her faith and attending church regularly before I met her.<P>As for an affair, I have not and my W says she has not and is not currently involved in an A. Just an aside, the overwhelming response to my other postings was that she is acting as if she is engaged in some form of A. I have no proof to implicate her and I do believe her when she says she is not committing adultry.<P>"Have you read over plans A & B on this site?"<P>I've seen the references to these plans but have not read about them yet.<P><BR>"Do you think you are capable of fighting for your marriage, when your main "adversary" is your spouse?"<P>I have repeatedly told her that I don't want to give up on our marriage. I believe the issues we have to work out are solvable and I will do my part in making this marriage work. I'm not, however, convinced she wants to do the same. <P>"How long did your wife and you know each other, before marrying?"<P>Three years. We dated for two and a half years before getting married. The year before we married we had to live 10 hours apart. I had a job in another city and she had one more year left in her Masters. During this trial we made the decision never to live seperatly due to our careers.<P>Now that I look back I see the small slivers of who she is and what she deems important but I ignored them I think. Or, maybe I thought they were something else or I misunderstood the signs. The group incident where I included her when our colleagues didn't want to put up with her abrasive style so they didn't ask her very often to participate in their groups. I was replaced by the prof, the other members are appalled by his actions, my W says I'm not making any waves for you this is my chance to play in the same group with him, sorry. Other incidents related to our profession and the powers that be in it(in my postings in Resolving Conflict and General Questions). The tantrum she through when her father invited me to go down a black diamond slope with him. My W came back to be told I had gone with her father for one last run in the Christmas ski vacation. She stormed off and couldn't be found. When she was finally found and she later speaks to me, I find out that she was angry that even though she has skiied for more years than I, how could I pick it up so quickly and be able to join her dad down a black diamond! I nearly broke my neck!! I thought she would be proud of her H. I think I scored some points with the father-in-law as I managed to stay on my feet at least 40% of the time and got to the bottom with all limbs attached. <P>I didn't make a big deal out of this revelation but I was shocked at how pety this was. She had held up the departure of her family while she pouted in the ski lodge over this.<P>There have been other incidents over the course of our relationship but oddly enought, I have not stopped loving her. How's that for crazy. Do you think the disturbing things she's said are to get me not to love anymore so that it will make a split easier for her? I'm getting that feeling.<P>Thanks again everyone.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by anncicero2 (edited August 02, 2000).]

anncicero2,<P>In my years in the work place I have run into a few women that would do "anything" to get a head and they have. Included with "anything" is sleep with their bosses or other people that could help their career.<P>Your description of your Prof. and how he decided to get rid of you, just raised the hairs on the back of my neck. I think your W is telling you something with her comments of "doing anything" to get ahead. I think she may be justifying an affair in this manner. <BR>You see if you accept yourself as willing to do "anything" to get ahead, then the affair is not a betrayal of you, it is just a career advancement.<P>anncicero2, I have not read your other posts but from what is on this thread, you are in some deep trouble here. I recommend as the others before me, that you learn about Plan A and implement it. I would also recommend that you keep your eyes open.<P>This may turn out to be much tougher than you think, although I must say that a W that would stick it to her H to advance isn't much of a W.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

anncicero2,<BR>I think that Mynabird has hit on it. As I read your post I was thinking that instead of competing with another person, as so many are on these boards, you are competing with your W career. Read all you can about Plan A and start executing it as soon as you can. Brush up on plan B too just incase you have to go that far as well. <P>Mud

AC2 (hope you don't mind me shortening your nic),<P> Wow, I did ask you a lot of questions, huh? It's good though... it's good to be able to go back and read what you've written. Sometimes, your answer is just staring you right in the face.<P> At the bottom of this page, you'll a box for searching all forums. Find the one called Plan A/Plan B. Click on it. When you get to *that* page, there won't be much...go to the search posts box in that page, and click on search for last year of posts. About 7 or 8 should pop up. One of those posts gives an abbreviated version of what plan A is. This plan basically means learning to meet your spouses emotional needs, and learning how to not make Love Busters. This plan is short term, about 3 to 6 months. If there isn't progress by that time period, then you are running the risk of permanently losing love for your spouse. I imagine you feel close to that, already.<P> If there is no progress with Plan A, you go to Plan B. In this, you cut off your spouse's abusive behavior. Usually, there is no communication, unless children are involved. That kinda leaves you in the lurch, huh?<P> That said, your best bet right now is Plan A. Look at the marriagebuilder principles, rules of marriage and so on.<P> The good thing about this is, you can have a time-limit as to how much time you will completely devote to your spouse's return of affection and love... not to mention, respect. Then, at that time, you can say to yourself, "I gave it my all. Now, do I stay in this, or do I go?" <BR>As for your question about her possible motives for treating you this way, ie, getting you to leave...making it easier for her... Well, it is possible. *Anything* is possible. You are not crazy for loving her... heck there must have been *something* good in her for you to *want* to marry her. You are fighting the good fight. You love her. No shame in that. I'll even do a little gig for ya if she does a complete turn-around and comes to her senses! <P> It sounds like you are on relatively good terms with her family, racial differences and all. When I say that you should feel fortunate that her father would even *ski* with you, I'm dead serious. Some people are so encased in racial hatred that they can't even attempt to build a relationship (of any sort) with ppl different from themselves.<P> Also, no, I don't think you should go to her mother about her behavior, or your marital problems. Unfortunately, mother-daughter bonds can be so strong, that even blatant wrong-doing on the part of the daughter will go ignored. And, yes, your wife *would* resent you going to her mom. <P> Your wife sounds like she will be extremely successful. But, her E.Q. is sadly laking.<BR> <BR> My prayers are with you.<P> Mynabird<P> PS(yes, it's me, again) Do you have family members to lean on? If so, don't make them choose sides, k? If things work out between you and your wife, you don't want your family to hate her...know what I mean? M

Okay, I'm blushing, now...one more thing (I promise). Go back to the top of this thread, and re-read NSR's post to you. VERY good advice there.<BR> M

Her E.Q. is sadly *lacking*. Where the heck did I get "laking" from???<BR>Sry

"Your description of your Prof. and how he decided to get rid of you, just raised the hairs on the back of my neck. I think your W is telling you something with her comments of "doing anything" to get ahead. I think she may be justifying an affair in this manner." <P>The prof. will no longer talk to me(more details in Resolving Conflict--A Sticky One and Help!!!!) or reply to my emails. I have resigned myself to having lost that relationship with him. The thing about he and my W cultivating an ever closer relationship is that it can be explained other ways. <P>It is fairly common for classical musician profs. to cultivate close relationships with their students. It can be considered apart of the mentoring process. This is the truth of the relationship according to my W. She flatly denies anything more involved than a prof. who believes she can make it and gives her the tools to do so.<P>I may not be very imaginative but I would think it would be nearly impossible to have a physical affair with him considering the circumstances they are in now. He is teaching at the summer music festival she is currently attending(for the past four wks and for another two) and performs with the festival orchestra. That means he is quite busy. Also, the festival takes place in a gated community so travel in and out is closely monitored. To top it off, his wife and two children(12 & 14) live at the festival with him. If there is something going on, I often wonder what his W is thinking. Is she suspicious...or the kind of W that accepts her H having a mistress. My W spends ALOT of time with his children. Taking them to movies, shopping, etc. <P>I guess I'll have to wait and see how this works out.<p>[This message has been edited by anncicero2 (edited July 31, 2000).]

"PS(yes, it's me, again) Do you have family members to lean on? If so, don't make them choose sides, k? If things work out between you and your wife, you don't want your family to hate her...know what I mean?"<P>Not for these matters. Thanks for your ear and good advice. I really appreciate it.

"The prof. will no longer talk to me(more details in Resolving Conflict--A Sticky One and Help!!!!) or reply to my emails. I have resigned myself to having lost that relationship with him."<P> "It is fairly common for classical musician profs. to cultivate close relationships with their students."<P> But... is it common for them to completely cut off a former student, while nuturing a new bond with the afore-mentioned student's spouse?<P> I would have to say that is suspicious. Any way you can get to that festival? BTW, it is not unheard-of for a cheating man's OW to ingratiate herself to the unsuspecting wife. Helps keep suspicion away, like..."Why is this woman suddenly so close to my family?"<P> I would strongly suggest going to that festival, incognito. No confrontations. Just learn what you can. This would be the *Perfect* opportunity to rule out an affair.<P> Mynabird

I just thought of another one that REALLY chapped my behind!<P>"...since I've been at this festival I've had a taste of freedom...and I like it."<P>She has studied at a summer music festival the past three summers and this talk has never come up. She has always eagerly wanted me to come visit as many times as possible and I have. <P>The whole situation makes me sad and angry. What happened to her belief "...it is too easy to get a divorce these days. First sign of trouble and people cut and run...they should try to work out their problems."<P>Can anyone tell me what I can expect in a divorce proceeding? Just in case it comes to that, I would like to know what I'm in for. Is she held accountable for any of the nonsense she spouting?

Unfortunately, no. If you live in a no-fault state, that is. She would not be held accountable for her actions. Stinks, huh? i know it does. I've been there.<P> Don't jump to conclusions, k? Prepare yourself. Find out if she is in fact having an affair. Decide from there what you want to do. <P> Mynabird

"It is fairly common for classical musician profs. to cultivate close relationships with their students."<P> But... is it common for them to completely cut off a former student, while nuturing a new bond with the afore-mentioned student's spouse?"<P>We think alike Mynabird! She believes this is perfectly OK and acceptable! I have repeatedly brought this up with my W. Her answer "I don't know why he doesn't speak to you anymore and I'm not going to ask. IT'S NONE OF MY BUSINESS WHAT HAPPENS BETWEEN YOU AND HIM. All I know, and care about, is he is willing to help me, he is a career asset(my words) and I have a better chance than ever to succeed. I'm not going to jepordize my relationship with him by bring up his conflict with you." I know this is bunk! If you are that close to someone, he has probably said something as to why he will not talk to me anymore or the nature of his ill feelings towards me. <P>"I would have to say that is suspicious."<P>All those responding to my past postings agree with you.<P>"Any way you can get to that festival?"<P>God, I wish. I'm broke and it is 1100 miles away.<P>"BTW, it is not unheard-of for a cheating man's OW to ingratiate herself to the unsuspecting wife. Helps keep suspicion away, like..."Why is this woman suddenly so close to my family?""<P>If she doesn't suspect anything, it is probably because of the nature of music profs relationships with *star* students. It is not uncommon for them to bring the student into their family circle and activities. Something akin to adopting a child. <P>

"Any way you can get to that festival?"<P>"God, I wish. I'm broke and it is 1100 miles away."<P> Okay, is this festival overseas? If not...how broke is broke? Got something that you could pawn for a couple hundred? Or even one hundred? Let me tell you, where there is a will, there is a way. You could drive there or take a greyhound. Very cheap transport. I know gas prices are high, but hey...you have to do what you have to do.<P> Or, you could beg off some travel money from your family... tell them that you want to see your wife. Very reasonable, I think. Don't ask mom-in-law, though...she could inadvertantly tip off your wife as to your plans.<P> What say you? Geeze, man, I am really rooting for ya. I hope you get to go. And I hope that your (our) fears prove baseless.<P> Mynabird.