I haven't posted in a long time, but I need to talk to someone about a recent heart-to-heart I had with my h.<P>We have been going to a couples Sunday school class, so we occasionally have 'spiritual' discussions. My h. calls himself an 'apostate' these days, meaning a believer who has fallen away from his faith.<P>We were discussion sin and repentance, and I asked him if he has asked God's forgiveness for his EA. He said "Of course not, He is partly responsible. He made me, He knew I would do it...it was all a set-up from the beginning of time. How can He judge me for being the person He made?"<P>Without the obvious answers of free will and personal responsibility, (which He says is also cruel, since God knew we would choose to disobey) what possible response can there be?<P>It made me furious to think he would put the blame on God, but then he said "God has no right to be angry with me. You do, but God doesn't."<P>I have accepted that he isn't the Christian husband I originally married (he claims<BR>that was all his emotions being worked up), but this position of blasphemy sort of<BR>scares me. He goes to church and sings praise songs at the top of his lungs, even takes communion -- what do you make of this?<P>lizzie/pearl of great price

Alias -<P>I'm in a bible study at work. Right now we're reading Genesis. You may want to take a look at Genesis, Chapter 3. In that, the serpent tempts Eve with the forbidden fruit, then Eve gets Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit. God discovers this and asks the man whether or not he has eaten from the forbidden tree. Basically, what you have in Chapter 3 is Adam blaming Eve, and Eve blaming the serpent.<P>Yes, God created man and woman. Yes, he has a plan for each of us. God also created the serpent, but he did not create temptation.<P>Another book that we recently studied was the book of James. James talks a lot about trials and temptations. Trials are hardships or ordeals, but it is not something that is brought about by evil. In James Verse 13 he says let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God. Temptation is different than a trial or a hardship. Temptation motivates you to be bad by promising something good.<P>I recently read a book by Charles Swindoll - "Three Steps Forward, Two Steps Back." In it, he talks about temptation, and that God has given us many gifts to withstand temptation. Temptation, like adultery, was not created by God. But it is our responsibility to supply self-control - we cannot wait passively on God to "work within our lives." <P>He has a plan for us, I believe that. But Swindoll says there are four principles to temptation (1) Temptation is inevitable; (2) Temptation us never directed by God; (3) temptation is an individual matter; and (4)temptation that leads to sin always follows the same overall process. <P>Swindoll says it's like the bait has been dropped, the inner desire is attracted to that bait, sin occurs when we yeild and bite the bait; and sin results in tragic consequences - we're hooked and fried. When we are tempted - we are carried away and enticed by our own lust.<P>Swindoll goes on to say that as long as we remain obedient to the Lord, the evil system around us can drop all sorts of bait and it won't seriously interest us.<P>If you need to, I would get a copy of the book. The chapter on Temptation is Chapter 7. It's very interesting and Swindoll provides references to the bible that are very useful.<P>Seriously, take a look at Genesis Chapter 3 and James. In Genesis, God did not intend for Adam and Eve to be cast out of Eden. It was through man's actions. It's funny, yes, people having been blaming God for all of their troubles since Adam and Eve - even they did not feel responsible for their own actions.<P>You say that your H takes communion and has not asked for forgivness? I was raised Catholic and taking communion without being remorseful or asking for forgiveness of our sins is another big mistake. How can he accept the body of Christ when he doesn't believe in his teachings or the teachings of the bible?<P>Yes, I believe that Jesus died for my sins, and I thank God everyday for that. But, I guess depending on your beliefs, I don't think you can be in heaven with the Lord God by just "going through the motions." Yes, he sings God's praises, but he has never asked for forgiveness - not even informally from God. How can he expect to be forgiven?<P>I don't claim to know everything and I'm not perfect, but at least I recognized my mistakes, took responsibility, asked for forgiveness and have placed my trust and faith in God that I will become a stronger person because of this.<P>I am glad that you are in a couples Sunday School. You cannot force someone to believe something that they just don't believe in. But I pray that God works through you and the discussion group to open his ears, his mind and his heart to the word of the Lord.<P>I know there are a lot of non-Christians on this board, so I hope I didn't offend anyone. I think there can be many latters to reaching God, but if your H continues to go to church, partake of communion, well I think he is just doing that for appearances sake. I would strongly encourage him to seek pastoral counseling - if possible.<P>I am a sinner and I don't know if my words represent the word of God, but I guess there are those out there who have more experience and expertise in this area. I would strongly encourage him to seek pastoral counseling - if possible. There were also a series of classes developed by ministers in England, I believe, called the Alpha Courses. In our bible study group, we watched the videos, had discussions, etc. . The videos are developed for those who may have an interest in exploring Christianity or for those who have fallen away from their faith. The videos really are excellent. I think you can order a complete set of videos by calling 1-800-36Alpha. Maybe your pastor is aware of this program (the Alpha Program) as well and could advise you.<P>Please continue to be a positive force in your H's life. I know it's difficult. God bless you and keep you strong.

Alias,<P>Have your H check out...<A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/DianeDew/adulforn.htm" TARGET=_blank>Adultery and Fornication</A>.<P> <P>Jim

Wow,<P>Sounds like the "Calvinist" vs. "Arminian" debate all over again.<P>Calvinists could "argue" that God made them, and determined that they would have an affair I guess. Arminians would have to accept full responsibility for the affair themselves.<P>Either (from my point of view) WILL be forgiven by God if he repents and admits his sin. I think blaming God probably puts your H outside of that "true repentance" idea.<P>Just my .02<P>Val

Lizzie,<P>Actually, he's just pulling the ol' "Adam" routine, all over again. Remember when Adam defensively replied to God, <BR>Gen 3:12<BR>12 ...The woman whom THOU GAVEST TO BE WITH ME, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.<BR>(KJV)<BR>If THAT wasn't the EPITOME of "passing the buck" (to GOD), I don't know what IS!!! It's an age-old problem and it won't help your husband's recovery from his self-deluded, adulery-justifying-thinking one iota to keep that up. What about murderers...are they responsible for their own actions? If not, then why do we prosecute them in our legal system?!? God did NOT create your husband with a "predisposition" to COMMIT ADULTERY any more than God "stuck a rape gene" into a rapist. CHOICE is a HUGE RESPONSIBILITY and your husband isn't owning up to HIS. Problem is he's "relinquishing control over his own life" by doing so. There will ALWAYS be "an excuse" to commit adultery; "she looked good and wanted me", "I felt like it", "It felt right at the time", "GOD made me do it by making that woman with her enticing figure". <P>Also, I'd like to interject a few of my thoughts about "God shouldn't be mad at him". God isn't. God's feelings about the fact that we would ALL sin in life went BEYOND "mad". God MADE A WAY to DEAL WITH SIN!!! He sent his Son to REDEEM US ALL, if we would ONLY RECEIVE THE GIFT from God. If anything, God weeps that your husband sold himself out by seeing himself as "acting on urges" he views as "beyond his control". God did NOT CREATE YOUR HUSBAND to be such a puppet of mockery by the devil in his adulterous actions. Your husband was created to "Submit yourselves [HIMSELF] therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7 (KJV)<BR>Your HUSBAND "failed" in his response to the temptation--NOT GOD in His creation OF your husband. NO ONE can "submit your HUSBAND to GOD" but HIMSELF. When your husband began entertaining thoughts of adultery he "removed himself" from ANY FORM of "SUBMISSION" to GOD's will as is clearly stated in the Bible. Your husband has SINNED AGAINST GOD'S FAITHFULNESS TO HIM by his act of adultery. GOD "MADE A WAY OF ESCAPE" whether your husband ADMITS IT or not. Let me list a few of those "ways" he likely "turned away from" as I did prior to my affair; he could have TOLD YOU that he was feeling tempted to have an affair seeking help, he could have TOLD A COUNSELOR that he was feeling tempted to have an affair seeking help; what about his PASTOR--isn't HE there to ASSIST those dealing with such issues?, he could have told the Men's prayer group that he was feeling tempted to have an affair; he could have gone out and gotten books by Christian authors dealing with the subject of "temptation" in order to GAIN TOOLS TO RESIST IT WITH, he could have read books to BETTER HIS OWN MARRIAGE so that an affair wouldn't have been even REMOTELY ENTICING, could he NOT?!? <P>See, whether your husband ADMITS IT or NOT the REAL ISSUE is NOT that HE WAS TEMPTED, but that he FAILED TO DEAL WITH IT CONSTRUCTIVELY...probably due to behind-covering PRIDE!!! I know that was MY case!!! I did NOT want to tell folks that "the Pastor's WIFE" was feeling tempted to have an affair. BUT WHY did God INSTRUCT US to "confess your faults one to another and [then] PRAY for one another" James 5:16 if it would not assist us with overcoming those "FAULTS"/SINS? Just because WE FAIL to follow GOD'S INSTRUCTION BOOK does not make GOD THE ONE RESPONSIBLE for OUR bad results. <P>ALSO, God said, <BR>I Jn 1:9-10<BR>9 IF, IF, IF, IF, IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.<BR>10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.<BR>(KJV)<BR>Your husband isn't "repentant" from his SIN if he's laying it off on GOD by saying, "It's GOD'S FAULT. HE programmed me this way." That's like shaking his FIST in God's face over his OWN, WRONG, CONSCIOUS CHOICES!!! God, however, isn't so thin-skinned as to be even REMOTELY shaken by such an attitude. (Though, admittedly, I fear for your husband's life-expectancy, if he continues to give himself to such self-deception. I believe God loves him SO MUCH that He would "turn him over for the destruction of his flesh that his SOUL" would be saved" 1 Cor. 5:5. In other words, GOD LOVES YOUR HUSBAND ENOUGH to NOT ALLOW HIM to get so "hard-hearted" that he'd ultimately spit upon God's grace and salvation given to him--because of GOD'S LOVE FOR HIM. Some Christians die young as a result of this type of attitude--before getting to a place of "crucifying Christ afresh", taking God's grace for granted. If he's as self-deluded as you describe, I'd be inclined to get a life-insurance policy out of FEAR for his life and your family's future welfare, while praying that he would "recover himself" if at ALL POSSIBLE.) God made a way of escape BEFORE the affair, as well as a "way of escape" AFTER THE AFFAIR. IF we OURSELVES will CONFESS OUR SIN as sin--not as GOD'S FAULT--THEN and ONLY THEN can God pour out His forgiving GRACE to us and begin helping us to recover ourselves. <P>Your husband is still lying to himself. Until he takes responsibility for his OWN THOUGHTS, CHOICES and ACTIONS he is placing HIMSELF into the role of "victim". He is NOT A VICTIM--he is chickenly not OWNING UP TO HIS OWN WRONG ACTIONS. He's acting like a CHILD instead of a MAN.<P>We can't forget God's instruction for dealing with adultery, either. (If interested, please refer to my response to the thread down a ways, entitled "Church Elder Having Affair" or something like that.) God does NOT TAKE SIN LIGHTLY but NOT because it "makes HIM mad"--but because it BREAKS OUR FELLOWSHIP WITH HIM, removing our confidence to "enter in" to HIS presence as a child who's disobeyed his parent. God's LOVE for your husband is much BIGGER THAN "getting mad". God values FELLOWSHIP WITH YOUR HUSBAND as a FATHER ENJOYS SPENDING TIME WITH HIS CHILD!!! Until your husband ACKNOWLEDGES that he has SINNED AGAINST THE BLOOD OF JESUS that GOD was willing to SACRIFICE to SAVE HIM, there will be a wall between him and his Father God. GOD already did all He COULD to remove that wall. NOW, it's up to your husband to accept/acknowledge that he SINNED against God and NEEDS GOD'S CLEANSING FROM IT. <P>God LOVES YOUR HUSBAND more than he could EVER comprehend!!! I pray that his eyes would be opened to that so he might respond to that IMMEASURABLE LOVE!!! We ALL love Him because He FIRST LOVED US--when we were UN-loveable. Sometimes we FORGET about the HIGH PRICE HE PAID so that we could enjoy fellowship with Him. Admitting that we've sinned doesn't HAVE to seperate us from God--but can actually draw us CLOSER TO HIM...IF we admit our NEED for HIS help (1 John 1:9). The story of the Prodigal's son (Luke 15) is a PERFECT picture of this PERFECT LOVE that God has for each of us, no matter HOW BADLY we may've behaved. THAT is how I see your husband!!! He enjoyed his FATHER'S love and benefits, then he CHOSE to "leave home" and "sow some wild oats". He entertained "riotous living" and spent ALL HE HAD in the process (he "spent up" his own covering of his ingrateful attitude of taking his father's LOVE for granted). Eventually, he will RECOGNIZE his "lack" and want to return to God. The Prodigal's son had to HUMBLE HIMSELF to be WILLING TO RETURN AS A SERVANT to his Father's house. But the BEAUTIFUL PART OF THE STORY was that his FATHER HAD NOT DISOWNED HIM!!! EVEN THOUGH the son HAD disowned his FATHER, the Father still dearly LOVED his son. The Father apparently was looking REGULARLY, hoping for his wayward son's return home. Remember how that Father saw his son "when he was yet a great way off"? THAT is how God views your husband--he's looking, LONGING to EMBRACE HIM IN HIS ARMS ONCE AGAIN with NOTHING BETWEEN THEM. It said the Father, "had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him". The FATHER RAN and showered his son with his UNABASHED LOVE!!! Then the son ADMITTED HIS WRONG to his Father--he didn't blame HIS FATHER--but acted like a MAN and OWNED UP to HIS OWN BAD CHOICES.<BR>Luke 15:22-24<BR>22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the BEST robe, and put it on him; and put a RING (this was used to make purchases in the market-place) on his hand, and shoes (servants RARELY owned shoes) on his feet:<BR>23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:<BR>24 For THIS MY SON WAS DEAD and is ALIVE AGAIN; he was LOST (not acting like HIMSELF), and is FOUND. And they began to be merry.(KJV)<BR>I cry as I sit here thinking of the VALUE GOD PLACES ON YOUR HUSBAND (and on us ALL!) as is demonstrated in this story. Can you imagine GRIEVING for your CHILD that's "run away"? Can you imagine LOOKING DAY AFTER DAY to SEE IF THAT CHILD is RETURNING in the distance?!? God LOVES your husband!!! I pray that your husband just "get a glimpse" of HOW MUCH!!!<P>Robin <P>

Thank you for your responses.<P>It saddens me greatly that this man I love may be choosing to harden his heart, and therefore seal a very sad fate for himself.<P>I will continue to pray for him, and try to keep quiet until God gives me something to say.<P>Thank you so much for the wealth of scriptures and the referral to the other site.<P>Blessings,<BR>Lizzie