I keep reading your posts..I'm not sure if I have ever replied, but I am so interested because you feel THIS deeply about someone you have NOT met?????? I am interested because I am the betrayed, but also because I have a hard time understanding it.<P>It is so difficult to imagine feeling so attached via writing....<P>Please do not think I am trying to minimize what you are feeling<I am just trying to understand.<P>It's mostly the memory thing.<P><BR>My H and I seemed to everyone..me...the kids,,,his family (momand sibs.) friends and colleages to have a great relationship.<P>I'm sure we had problems and I can name a few.<P>Anyway, He has beenworking with someone that I would callcontrolling and manipulateive. I mean she called herself the "office wife" to my face. I used to just roll my eyes..<P>She seems to have had other plans. They have spent a lot of time working closesly during a very stressful time at their work. Then she talked him into doing a mission, appealing to his noble sense (which is great). He went and then came home with an intimate note from her in his wallet and acting like he was possessed. She is married BTW with 2 kids....(she left H on Mothers day and has kids part time)<P>My H has moved away from the grandiosity of his fantasy (at the beginning of his return from his trip), but since she move out and I suspect has controlled conversation more..(she told her H she was tired of his indecision) he became more distant.<P>We have gone to counselling but he refuses to discuss OP..what went on, what is going on..only to say....they enjoy working with each other...they help each other get more done and they share the same values of giving back to the poor..(mission work) Kind of interesting that they don't seemto think giving to their kids is important.!!!<P>But we know (via her H ) that OP has a different agenda..<P>Anyway, I am asking you this while you are going through withdrawals....do you really still believe that your wife is this person that cannot meet your needs as much as the person you are writing too???<P><BR>My H's counselor and the marraige counselor both told H that he will stay in this fog as long as OP is in the picture...he will not feel anything for me (and in my case the kids too). Yet he still goes for it.<P>I began Plan B tonight. Every counselor and friend has told me I overfunction for H. <P>I was nice....and I will let him have liberal visitaiton...but He left..he does not get to make all the rules...and I don't have to be his friend...friends do not treat friends this way..<P>He has an incredible memory problem...He not only does not remember alot of th emarraige, bur he does not remember his parenting.!!!!<P>Ir ias so sad to watch from the outside and realize you can not do anything. Everyone in the entire town and in his family sees that he has allowed himself into being manipulated into a whole value system that misses the point!!!! Believe me, I am not trying to teach him....<P><BR>I guess I just wanted to know what your memory is like (my H admits to lots of memory loss)and if your wife is aware you have these difficulties with her.?????

Well, That was a mouthful. Let me see how I can respond.<P>First of all, I did "meet" my friend,OW, first on this MB site. We communicated just as you and I are now. I was drawn by her ability to share her heart here, in a very encouraging and supportive way. We began to share more, as I was going through a personal struggle at work. Next thing you know, we exhange email addresses and begain to write back and forth...just seemed quicker and more convenient. Wasn't like we had anything to hide from anyone, just was more practical. Guess that was rule number one we broke.<BR>Before long, we where 'chatting' back and forth on AOL messanger. Then, after learning where she worked, I thought it wouldbe fun to call her one day and talk to her in person. We had exchanged some pictures via internet...and both of us found ourselves being drawn to each other. Guess that was the next warning signal/rule we ignored. <P>Honestly, I thought I was 'safe' behind my screen and keyboard. Didn't think it could happen to me. You should know how easy it is to 'open up' when typing to some person "out there in cyberspace". And the more one opens up, the more you get to know them. We chatted all the time, started calling more, sent pictures...and the great feeling of establishing a new friendship/relationship was ...."addicting" tosay the least. I really liked this person. She became a close friend, and I don't use that term ashamedly at all. It was soooo easy to talk to her...and we both obviously started meeting some needs in each other. As I mentioned in earlier posts, my wife was wrapped up in school, my work was becoming demanding, we just were not communicating much at home, and I just "let my guard down", and met a really neat person. They do exist out there, many of them right here at MB, men, women, who are great human beings.<P>So, I fell in love with her. WE never thought the opportunity would arise for us to meet in person, didn't think it would be a good idea, but some things came about, and next thing you know, I had a chance to be up her way, and we did meet face to face. About 6 hours the first day, and two the second day. We went out, had lunch, and really enjoyed our visit. Did I feel guilty about being with her, knowing I was married, with kids, and they knew nothing about this? Well, I suppose if it was really working on me, I would not have been there to begin with. And so that indicates some things were not right in my heart or head to be there to begin with. I will admit to this. I didn't go to meet her to "have sex". I was engrossed with meeting in person, this wonderful lady who had become my best friend. A love developed. We became consumed with each other. <BR>Her situation was such that her husband had not been around much to meet some of her needs. We did not step into this friendship trying to "meet needs" or betray our spouses.<P>Funny,how people would tell us we were living in a fantasy world. But really,think about it...when we met our spouses, all of us, how did it begin??? We met, we conversed, we liked what we saw and felt and heard...and feelings developed..and we got married. No one told us then we were living in a fantasy world. They all smiled applauded, and thought it was great...a natural part of life. Well, it happened all over again...except this time, me and my friend were still married to other people. We know this was not right. But it happened. We fell in love. Neither of us have indicated that we don't think our spouses cannotever meet our needs, nor can our marriages be saved. We just were both very vulnerable, found ourselves to be very compatiable, wired much alike in many ways, and we...simply fell in love. These "emotional" feelings are very strong and real. They have rooted themselves deep inside our hearts. It is no easy thing to just "pull the plug" on what became a very close friendship. <P>Are we proud of what happened to us? No. Do we want to hurt our spouses? No. Has my friend ever tried to manipulate me, or turn me against my wife and family? Absolutely not! We have never tried to ruin each others' lives or marriages.<P>We were just two people, in a stale season of life at home, things happened, we ignored some early warning signs, and we did what human beings have done for centuries...we fell in love. Now, WHAT we do, with these feelings, will the the final chapter. We are both striving to do the "right" thing, and turn ourhearts back to our spouses. But I had no idea, how difficult this could be, when my heart feels the way it does about her. I just had no idea...it has rocked my world, how strong this pull is. I wish there was a button, Icould just push, and turn off these feelings. I realize there are men out there, who "use" women for their own purposes and needs, and can really talk a good story and play the game, then "turn if off" and drop them cold. <BR>I am not wired like that. My friend became a very strong emotional support for me this past year when I really needed one, and could find no one anywhere else.<P>I can only hope and pray, that someday, my marriage and her marriage, can experience once again, just a fraction of this "bond" that we developed this past year. I know that would be God's desire and design. That is what we are striving for. It is a difficult and painful struggle.<P>Hope that answered your question.

Thanks so much nomas. I'm sorry for your struggles now!!! Can I ask? Have you discussed your feelings for the OP with your wife, so she has a chance to get on equal playing ground?????<P>Also, You seem fairly lucid..My H has not been. He is in individual counseling because he doesn';t know what is happening to him...He feels disconnected to most things....me, the kids, all personal possessions!!!! He tells me he has NO memory of being intimate with me, despite the fact that we were right before his trip.<P>He also absolutely denies (even in counseloing) that he was a participant dad!!!<P>He truly has lost memory. I have caught him innocently when he is confused. <P>Both individual and Mcounselor told him he will not be clear on his memories while he is involved in this "friendship"...theirs is based on some work related stuff...they work well together and want to go off and do missionary work and give up all their earthly possessions. (but he comes here to check out how his finances are doing in the stock market)<P>Anyway, I was just wondering if you have lost memories or completely changed your beliefs.

No, I have had no "Memory loss" like you spoke of. My wife has noticed I am forgetful about things more these days, which she sees as signs of depression. But I haven't the heart to tell her about what is going on in my own heart regarding my relationship and feelings towards my friend. When she was in school, I did not want to sabatoge that. She starts her first job next week, (first time outside the home in 19 years). I don't want to sabatoge that either. I guess I am doing the "guy thing" and fighting this on my own.<P>I don't know "how" to tell her, "what" to tell her, or "when" to tell her. My fear is if she were to know the extent of my struggle, that it would drive us furthter apart, and thus, compell me to turn to my friend for the emotional support and companionship that we have shared this past 8 months.<P>My beliefs have not changed. They have just added to my internal struggle. I know what the truth is. I am just having difficulty 'doing it'. The scriptures read that to be just a "hearer of the word and not a doer, is to deceive myself". Guess that explains the "fog" we find ourselves in. <BR>Regarding your husband and in this place of indecision...the Word also says that a double-minded man is unstable in all of his ways.<P>I mentioned one time that Jesus prayed on the cross for his tormentors by saying "Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing". Not trying to use that for my advantage here, but perhaps it sheds some light on people who do the most UNimaginable things....like what your husband and myself have done. I would like to think...we will find our way out one of these days.<BR>Seeing the truth and logic of this whole mess has not been difficult. Doing what I needed to do...is what seems to be the struggle.<P>Let me share this in closing. Last year, at work, my initial problem was being attracted to a coworker. I had never had such a temptation like this before. This was not a problem area for me in my marriage....EVER!<P>I was really wrestling with this whole thing. I felt like I was on that slippery slope and couldn't get a hold on it. One day, I wrote down two list of what I stood to lose and gain should I not find the 'brakes' on this slide into adultery. In one column, I wrote all the people I stood to hurt given my position and place in the community and family. It was quite a list of all that I stood to lose. Then I listed in the other column all I stood to gain, which basically amounted to an unguranteed, temporal time of pleasure and satisfaction. What really scared me, was when I put both columns in this imaginary balance scale, they both weighed the same. I could not understand that. I knew I was in trouble. Someone later told me that when the force of emotion meets the force of logic/rational, that emotion will when out everytime, unless there is a plan. I have been working on finding that plan. This emotional pull, is stronger than anything I have ever dealt with before. <P>That is why I guess people on these boards and hurting spouses who offer advice and 'vent' here, need to understand, that logic and truth only penetrate so far. I have this theory that mixed in with that truth and logic, if there is an ample dose of "emotion"...from the other side, seeing and hearing he pain of what our actions have done, that perhaps, it might be what is needed to "bring us back to our senses.<BR>We shall see!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited May 31, 2000).]

Thanks again for your reply but worry that if you don't tell your wife....you will keep letting this go on and on. YOu know, you have a deep connection with your wife. It is there...as long as she is in the dark and you keep letting this relationship grow, you will never feel it.<P>My H's counselor and the Mcounselor both told my H that he cannot feel it to me and the kids while he puts all of his energy into the other "friendship". That;s actually why I went to plan B. I did it mainly to protect myself from more of the emotional abuse, but I figure.....once I'm out of the picture he'll have no choice but to have all of his needs met by her!!!<P>He told the counselors he doesn't want to get a D. But he kept going on and on about how they have a wonderful work relationship.<P>In fact, during the first onslaught of emotional abuse he accused me of "not understanding what it is like in the Or and she does" Of course she is his first assistant. <P>The thing I will NEVER understand is how this loving, kind, conciderate H, who told me he loved me the day he left for his trip, and who even now tells me he missed me.....could come home this narcissistic, self absorbed liar!!!!<P>I mean, come on, if he changed his mind about us....suddenly, which is what it seemed, why did I have to become the enemy,. He said sooooooooooooo many untrue and hurtful things. It was those things that actually helped me detach, because I realized he was not himself!!!!!<P>I suppose guilt does this. I wonder if this would happen to you if your affair met the light of day?????

NoMas,<P>I've been following your posts. My questions to you are:<P>Do you feel that your W deserves to know about your affair?<P>OR,<P>Are you afraid to tell her because if she finds out, she will leave you, and there is a possibility that you will be alone?<P>

My "energy" has been spent on trying to "pull out" of this EA. It came to "light" once already...and that was very traumatic. There was a combination of pain over what I had done to my wife, and the pain of losing person I felt "connected to" the past several months.<P>The shock of the disclosure erected even taller walls around our marriage...or I should say between my wife and I. It has been a painful struggle trying to "rebuild" what has eroded the past few years. I don't mean to portray my marriage as being some miserable place of endurance. It just drifted into a very weak season of our lives, and then at my most vulnerable and weakest point, something in my heart just "jumped tracks" and I have tried getting back where I belong. <P>I have not given up trying to rekindle the fire and rebuild what has eroded. I just feel like I am in such a precaurious position, and I just don't want to make any drastic moves that could bring it all crashing down. I don't know, maybe that is what has to happen first. I hope not. <P>I have thought recently, about how my internal character and intergrity...had to be rather shallow and weak to "end up in this place".. Now that I am here, how do I use that "shallow and weak character" to pull myself out of this place...if I wasn't strong enough in the beginning to avoid coming here? Anyone have an answer to that?<P>I am not afraid of her leaving my to be alone, in answer to your question. And does she "deserve" to know about the "affair"? Well, she certainly does not deserve the pain that will come with knowing about my struggle to pull out of it. I am afraid to tell her about my battle. Perhaps this is where I am really missing the boat. But at this point, I do not feel like I can tell her. <P><p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited May 31, 2000).]

<BR> NoMas, if you are still in contact with the ow you will not be able to rebuild a strong marriage. You must tell your wife and ask her <BR>to work with you in rebuilding. Witout these two essential steps you are fooling yourself<BR> and killing your marriage. I am sorry for sounding harsh, but please get of the fence.<BR> Your spouse needs to be a part of what the two of you do next. Do not hold any thing back; it will come out some day; best if you tell her. I am the brtrayer; PLEASE TELL HER!<BR> God Bless You. GWM

NoMas, it pains me to see you are still stuck in this limbo.<P>Yes, emotions are an exceedingly strong force, and yet we are called to rise above them and they will eventually fall in place.<P>You are very articulate as you describe the pull of the emotions and the hell of trying to extricate yourself.<P>I'm on the other side, but I watched my h go through hell. He too struggled to extricate himself alone, but decided to confess and let the chips fall where they would after two weeks of continuing the previous EA/PA as a "friendship".<P>Emotions on this side are strong too. The night he confessed, my emotions screamed to throw him out, but by God's grace I was somewhat prepared. I knew it would only make any possible recovery more difficult, plus I saw him sitting there so crestfallen; I made love to him instead and chose him with my body and soul.<P>My emotions screamed again and again that I should punish him, that this was unfair, but I gave him a shoulder to cry on as he ripped her out of his heart. I read all their emails and this was a window into his soul.<P>You are right it does hurt to see the struggle of his soul, but I had been shut out for 18 months during the two affairs. Though it was extremely painful for me to witness, we reached a new level of intimacy and I was his friend during that time.<P>Still I was making 90+% of the effort in our marriage, and my emotions screamed again. But Jennifer Harley coached us through every step, and helped him see he needed to make an effort to start meeting my needs.<P>I honestly did not believe we could be in-love with each other again, but I agreed to give it all I got. It was the only way to really know. I spent 99% of my day in searing pain and I wondered how we could get close when he could not feel that. He had his own pain, much like what you have expressed.<P>But we are here today, very much in-love, more than ever before.<P>How can you rebuild intimacy with your wife when you continue to shut her out? Do you underestimate her as my h did me? Do you think she feels none of the emotional distance between you that you have allowed and built up?<P>I believe you do sincerely want to protect her from pain, but you end the emotional attachment alone, then what? Are you doing all you know to build your marriage? Can you with this secret between you? Only you can answer that and it need be only to yourself.<P>------------------<BR>Cindy

nomas, I am back again. I am glad others have joined in. It is an interesting dance we are in as betrayers and the betrayed. <P>I have seen it happen so many times....My H and I have talked about such situations....including a MB forum typical case between his brother and his first wife. <P>He has so many times commented negativily on these situations (without being too judgemental) Plus he has pooh-poohed my warnings of OP......and look....here he is stuck in the thick of things...I thing trying to find a way out because he knows how bad this has all looked to everyone.<P>I started planB and he already is trying to suck me back. I told him DO NOT ask to talk to me while speaking with the kids. He asked oldest D...who got upset, started to cry and said she had a stomach ache so I had to talk to him.<P>I tried to just focus on kids...but he wants to know how my day goes...what I do....how each kid event goes....how was her graduation party (elementary school).....were all both parents there.....<P>I need to tell him HE DOES NOT GET TO LIVE HERE IF HE DOES NOT LIVE HERE!!!!!!<P>Anyway, back to the dance. As the betrayed I wonder what is going on in my H's head. I will tell you from my perspective, we have always had a very good relationship. I have understood him quite well and even now I think I understand him..In fact...I have told him repeadedly...I am an adult...I can take it...I have told him there is nothing he can tell me that will make me commit suicide or go insane or ruin his relatinship with his kids or family..... I tell him that even if he has slept with OP or thinks he is in love with her...just lets talk it out and I'll do whatever he wants to do...lets just do something......<P>But....he doesn't want to do anything. He wants to live in this world in which he and OP get to work and feel real good about it...and WHAT!!!!!<P>I am wondering NOmas...if you have gone through a stressful time at work as my H has. 2 years ago he had a crisis...it effected his self esteem I know. I will tell you that i was supportive. I think I was....because I was devastaed by what his previous partner did to make his life miserable. But somehow he interpreted my feeling so bad that someone could hurt my wonderful h so much, as I have to be careful telling her things because she get too upset.<P>ANd Op was right by his side....knowing his expartner so well and feeding off and into the situation.<P>I think my H is depressed. situationally depressed. I think that he just doesn't want to admit it...because men don't get depressed, women do.<P>I just wondered if you were going through similar difficult times when this OP (who is most likely a wonderful person) came into your life.<P>Do you suppose we find it difficult to open up about our deep wounds and insecurites to our spouses, because we think we have to be strong...we are afraid that if they see these weaknesses that they may not see us the same way anymore or love us alittle less?\<BR>Perhaps that is why it is easier to discuss our innermost thoughts with someone new....perhaps it is because with someone new we can actually change the circumstances of these events to still protect ourselves. The history of another person is not there....We cannot hide so much when there is the history of long relationship. We tend to respond to things in a similar way, and our spouses know these ways......<P>Perhaps the connection with the OP occurs because they UNDERSTAND us the way we want them to understand us and not the way we really are. History generally proves the way we are!!!<P><BR>Just thoughts.<P>Again, I am sorry for all you are going throough. I really hope and pray that you can allow your wife into this darkness, so she can help you find the light.

Wow....Cindy and Tootrusting....<BR>Both of your last post were excellent. Thank you so much.<P>Yes...I would say that "situational depression" played a role in my vulnerbility. I've been at a very demanding crossroads in my life...and didn't see any light at the end of the tunnel. Seems like the setting was 'ripe' for this to happen for me. Yes...my friend was meeting some needs in my life...and the feelings that resulted from sharing with her...were the most intense and 'real' feelings I have felt in some time. I had not been eager to let go of that, being as "dead inside" as I have been for the past few years.<P>Cindy....what a testimony of grace and courage. I am humbled by your story. In my own marriage, I am the "communicator". My wife on the other hand keeps a lot bottled up inside. After my disclosure back in Jan., surprisingly, she had very few questions for me. I mean, if it was me, and the tables had been turned, I would have had hundreds of questions, trying to figure out how this happened. And what could I do to prevent it from ever happening again. That's just me...and her. It kind of hurts that there has not been more questions. I assume she just doesn't really want to know,or that she doesn't feel prepared to deal with the pain.<P>I hope I am making sense here. I don't deserve her love right now, or her 'reaching out to me". But I really need it. I can't 'ask' her to reach out to me. I wish she "wanted" to do it on her own. And that, I believe is one of the core issues in our marriage.<BR>I heard someone challenge a group of men at a Promise Keepers convention a few years ago with this thought: "You may say you love your wife, but does she "feel" loved by you?"<P>Well...that works both ways. I just have not "felt loved" by my wife, even though I am certian that she does love me. And I have been at a season in my life, where I was reaaaallllly neeeeeding to "feel" loved by her. It wasn't happening. <BR>When I met my friend and our friendship grew, it wasn't long, and I "felt" VERY loved by her. And I believe she did the same by me.<BR>It is one hell of a force to contend with.<P>I know that many would say that genuine love is "paying the bill, raising the kids, and doing all the unglamourous stuff together". <BR>Well....I won't argue that point. But I think it is important to "feel loved" by your spouse. I see to many marriages today where the couples are "doing all the boring stuff" together...and they are hanging in there, but it is clear as day, there is no love between them. <BR>Certainly, there has to be a balance. And again, I don't think looking for 'love" outside the marriage is right, healthy, or productive. But then again, I wasn't "looking" for it. It just...happened.<P>I am not giving up. My wife and I did not end up in the place overnight. I am sure we will not get out of it any sooner. I just need the strength and motivation...to keep trying.<P>***sigh***<P>Thank you all for your sincere comments.<P>Oh, by the way, might be an interesting question to ask your spouse sometime..."Do you FEEL loved by me?" Just asking if they love you...is to easy to get away with.<BR>

NoMas (is that Spanish for no more?) I believe feeling loved is at the heart of Harley's emphasis on meeting needs. My h didn't feel loved either, though I loved him very much. Like many, I tried to give love in ways I wanted/needed it. For instance, I was very affectionate, but now I know that ranks way down on his list of needs. Unlike many stories I have read here, he started with sex, but was really looking (and found) those feelings of love. He even tried to convert the little immoral girl. (missionary dating???)<P>Since d day on Oct 29, we have not only survived withdrawal, but had a complete education in how to meet each other's needs so he/I feel loved.<P>I'm not sure we could have done it without the coaching of Jennifer Harley. It is one thing to read the books and grasp the concept. It is much harder figuring how to translate it into our lives and then actually doing it. <P>You know, like the Bible. I can go to the Greek and understand what it means in its context. That's not that hard. The hard part is what does it mean to us today, how do we put it into practice, and then coming up with a plan to change bad habits, then executing it.<P>I thank God how things worked out. You know I was the one who found the web site and made the appt. with Jennifer with h's ok. I knew nothing about the affairs. He actually spilled his guts to her first and she told me he had something to share with me, and that I could call her the next morning Sat to talk again. She helped us stay on course when it came to actually doing the questionnaires and devising a plan to start meeting each other's needs, and then prodded us to stick with it when I wanted to give up.<P>Speaking of emotions, I did not want to stay with him no matter what. I believe when he violated his vows, I was then free to divorce and remarry. I wanted this only if I could truly feel loved by this man again. This same man that was telling me he was never in-love with me and wanted the 21 year old OW. I didn't think it was possible, but after reading SAA wanted to try.<P>Boy, do I write long posts, sorry.<P>------------------<BR>Cindy

schizzo,<P>never apologize for your posts again, no matter how long. <P>Thank you. It amazes me that anyone can sit and listen to the 'i don't love you anymore' crap and still want the person telling them that. Lately, when i look at my wife, remembering how her relentless belief in her love for me, and that God would honor her faith and love, it just leaves me in awe. When i came back, revealed the affair, she never, ever said she didn't love me. No matter how callous and cold i became, she would want me, tell me she loved me enough for both of us, never stopped. It's scary and humbling. Can i ever return anything like that to her? Do i even want to feel anything that intense? Am i capable?<BR>Jeez, look at all the 'I's... <P>Thanks again, <BR>Forest<BR>

Forest,<P>I looked on your thread for a reply back. Then I saw this old thread was now up again.<P>I wrote this back in late May. We are still growing in these areas and it gets better and better.<P>But you said two things on your thread that raise a red flag. 1. You loved her for 20? years and were spent, empty. 2. You are back in the same marriage.<P>What you did was obviously wrong and your choice, therefore your responsibility. BUT that said, Harley makes the point clearly about unmet needs leaving us vulnerable.<P>What is missing in your marriage? Do you believe that love is created not bumped into? My h looked back and saw he was doing the Harley rules with the 'A'. He was honest with her, spent time having fun with her, met needs, avoided lovebusters.<P>After the wonderful marriage building (for us we were largely doing it right for the very first time) we've done, I can say that the Harleys are right on.<P>We needed to get busy meeting each other's needs, avoiding LBs, etc. RIGHT AWAY.<P>I don't know your wife, but I bet she could be the love of your life if you both will do this. My h and I have both been surprised at the feelings we now have for each other. It just didn't seem possible!<P>------------------<BR>Cindy

Forest?

NoMas...... OMG<P>I have followed some of your posts. I did not realize your OW was "internet" stuff.<P>My H does not like me on the interent.. hates when i get whispered... doesn't want me chatting.. period.<P>I now can see why.<P>Wow. <P>I really hope things work out for you. <P>mercy