Sorry for posting two times. I did not see my post so I thought it did not go through. I did not know to hit page two. LOL new at this.

Do a search under the username "freedom" in the Read Only archives. Read his thread entitled My Story or The Whole Story. He was a male betrayer who did leave his wife for the OW. It is really worth reading.

kalgrl...<P>Thanks for pointing us here...just read it...<BR>WOW! What a story....wonder what he is doing now days...anyone know?<P>Here's the thread: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009868.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009868.html</A>

I'm very thankful that you guys are letting your true thoughts come out. Yes, it is painful to think that my h had/has feelings as intense as that. But I would rather know the truth than skim it over with lies. <BR>I tell you the truth, though. It bothers me that you won't refer to her "OW" anymore. That is really what she is, I don't care how nice, caring, beautiful she is. If you have a wife, she is the OW.

Yes, I have communicated with Freedom, but I hate to say how it turned out for him. It is different for all people and I hope you put your best into it and are successful in your marriage.<P>I do think for sure that Freedom would say to "work on your marriage". I will email him and ask if he is interested in coming back to post to you.<p>[This message has been edited by Susan (edited August 05, 2000).]

Hi Hopeful...<P>I guess if anyone...can be helped by getting some insight to what goes on in the heart and mind of a WS...then sobeit. I know I would never want my wife to hear from me the true extent of feelings I had for this other person. It is difficult enough for her to just come to terms with the fact that I would have kept an EA going on as long as I did.<P>Regarding our hesitation to refer to them as "OW" or "OP". May I offer this bit of insight as perhaps it will better help you and others understand the nature of this problem. And I may get skewed for this...but I think it is helpful if you are really interested in getting your spouse back. Allow me to use this analogy:<P>Within our 'hearts' lay the seat of our emotions. You might call it a 'control center'. Remember the old saying about a quick "way to a man's heart is through his stomanch?" Well....lots of things go on inside this heart. The bible says that the heart is 'deceitful...desprately wicked'. Despite songs/sayings that encourage us to 'follow our hearts', this can be deadly advice.<P>I would go on to suggest that our hearts have been 'taken hostage'...not by some person or alien...but by an incredibly strong emotional force. Let's call it a 'stronghold'. 'Something' has found it's way into our hearts and is influencing many, many thoughts and decisions and feelings and choices.<P>Now most people know that when a real live 'hostage situation' takes place...the rules change. Please don't read into this that I am trying to 'shirk' responsibility here. But what the BS wants to hear and see is the WS just 'snap free' denounce the OP, walk away from it like nothing ever happened, and move on with their life. <P>Gosh...if it really is that easy...why in the h**l are so many WS not doing that? When your heart is this deeply entangled emotionally with a person like this, there are times when you feel very protective of them...and attacking or denouncing them may be what you want to hear from us...but don't believe us when we tell you that. <P>It's very easy to tell you what you want to hear...just to help ease the pain and avoid further conflict, but let's be honest....if it is so easy to denounce the OW and find fault with them...when comparing them to the spouse we betrayed, then why in the world did we 'ride the wave' so long?????<P>IT's because we did have very strong and binding feelings for them. And those feelings don't go away anytime soon as you read here and in other posts.<P>I can be riding around at any given time of the day...feeling rather 'free'...having warm fuzzy feelings for my wife...and feel like my 'captor' has either left or fallen asleep. (My 'captor' being this emotional surge, not the OP) I can think...hey...I'm ready to move on...heal my marriage...never think or deal with the OP again...not because she is evil...but because it is the right thing to do.<P>Then...like a dog who thinks his leash is untied begins to run...."BOOOM!" That chain around his heart jerks him back to reality...his heart begins to crave and long for this other person. All the feelings of freedom and strength sensed earlier have gone right out the window. It is an exhaustive cycle that wears your soul down.<P>I share these things, because it helps me to 'vent' and also, there are many BS here who haven't a clue to what is going on in the mind and hearts of their WS. IT must be painfully frustrating for you to see the wishy-washiness of your WS, not knowing what in the world is going on in their mixed up hearts and brains.<P>We as humans try often to 'simply things that are complex, and to complicate things that are very simple'. My critics would suggest that I have complicted a solution that appears so simple and easy in their eyes. I don't take their 'flamings' to personally. They are not in my shoes. People are all wired differently. I realize that. But there are many husbands out there like forest and myself...who are in this very place I tell you about. Others, like the husband of tootrusting...and azallison...have gone even further...Yet...I believe...that they can be 'released' from the captor of their hearts and minds...and attacking the OW...is not the key to their release...at least in many cases. <P>And this is my most humble opinion.<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited August 05, 2000).]

OK, NoMas, I don't like what you wrote , but I am sure it is the truth.<P>I am incredibly lucky that my H ended up not even LIKING his OW.<P>Now from the BS camp, why we think OW/OM are appropriate labels (speaking for myself here) is because they don't belong in our marriage.<P>God loves them every bit as much as he loves the WS and the us the BS, and although they may be lovely (albiet mistaken) people, in the context of your relationship, they are not lovely. Read Proverbs, I don't know, you should about the OW. God loves her as much as the people he is addressing, but clearly any relationship with her is vile and ugly to God. And by the way, you were the OM and as wonderful as you are, in the context of your relationship with her, you were just as destructive. I'm an equal opportunity infidelity person.<P>The fact that the OW/OM are wonderful people is really does not really matter. They may have been saints, they may become saints again, but they were sirens to you and you to them.<P>OK...I understand how they take a hold of your heart...can you understand my view?<P>Another question, NoMas. When that jerk on your heart comes along...what do you do? <P>Those struggling with this could learn by sharing what positive actions they take to battle this pull rather than just restating over and over that it is there.

I am grateful to you Forest, NoMas, and some of you other guys for helping me see what MIGHT be going on in my husband's mind. It has been painful as all heck reading your posts. But I am thankful for a reality check. You posts make me feel a little compassion for him and what he is suffering. <P>I had always imagined that my H had an undivided, unconditional love for me, or at least I had been hoping that. My self-esteem has always been pretty here-or-there; now, it is floating through the universe in sub-atomic particles. She is everything that I am not--tall, super-skinny, long, curly hair, has a cool job in big sales, ect--so I am wondering if THAT'S what he really wants...Oh, well. It'd not worth speculating about.<P>One night, my husband came to bed, held me tight, and started crying his eyes out (he woke me up, I had been very much asleep and pretended that I was still.) The affair had been discovered at this point, and I thought that his emotions proved that he was sorry and that he really loved me.<P>Now, after reading your posts, maybe not. Maybe she IS better than me, at least to him. (Obviously he had a strong attraction to her, they carried on for more than a year.)I guess that's kinda hard to swallow, knowing that someone else is peferable to the guy that you really love.<P>To me, the OW is so nasty, so devoid of integrity and true character, I had this idea that the fog would lift, and my husband would open his eyes and see her the same way I do--old, clingy, and pathetic. To him, old means mature. Clingy means that she is devoted to him. Pathetic, well she needs him.<P>Anyways, I wish my H would talk and tell me exactly "what" she was to him. The truth hurts, yes. But I would rather know the truth than try to figure out what it was she did to make her take my place. Obviously, I need to be doing the exact some things--or would that threaten her place in his heart? (Like, duh. Her special place in his heart needs to be threatened by me if he wants to continue marriage.)<P>I am sorry that you are enduring this heartache, Forest. Losing someone special to you is terrible, almost like they are dead and buried. However, that person is not dead, they are alive and well and hurting as much as you are, and you can't go to them for comfort or to be comforted. That must be so hard for you. Please take care of yourself and go to someone who can help with your depression.

Bernzini--I totally agree about wanting to know the truth...100%. But, don't worry about her being "better than" you...it's not a matter of better than her; just be a wonderful you.<P>I the I think one thing that helped me was that I never expected that my H would "snap back" instantly. I did not fall in love with, and marry someone who takes things like feelings that lightly. Think about it...<P>An emotional affair (with or without sex)is about the heart. Do you really want your spouse to be able to change who he loves on a day-by-day basis? <P>It also helped me to recognize that his falling "in-love" with her was a symptom of a lot of things...changes in our marriage that had taken place over a long time. The damage that led to the EA took place over years, and fixing it would take months and months...I was pretty realistic about that. And, as for her, yes, I wanted him to recommit to the marraige, which he did. But, that did not mean he could, or even should be able to, turn his feelings for her off overnite. I don't think that would have been possible, and could even have been dangerous...I wanted him to get over her, not just shut a door.<P>This all hurts so much...Hugs all--<P>Kathi<P>

Hi Faith....<P>Sorry...I knew I might dissappoint you with that posts. But you really did offer a very good balance in your response. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And yes...Proverbs is very clear...I am familiar with those chapters. Odd, isn't it, how the "OW" is maligned more, it seems, than the man. Wonder why that is?<P>What do I do when the chain 'jerks'? Hurt and cry a lot. And feel like there is no hope for me.<P>Bernzini....I read some of your post last night and was deeply touched. I believe it was your post that was wondering why your husband was struggling to remember the 'good times' you had. Wasn't that you that begin to enumerate them...showing up in his dress blues...holding your baby in the hospital, etc? I was very moved by that.<P>I think sometimes, an affair is fueled by a focus on all the negatives that may exist in a marriage. IN some cases, while there may not be that many 'negatives', perhaps there is just the forgetting of the good that was always there...that works against the marriage. YOur post brought back some pleasant memories for me. Thank you for that.<P>Please don't take my post here as a suggestion that your husband has not been sincere with you. I belive that night when he took you in his arms and wept...that he was being very sincere. It is an overwhelming ride of emotions we go through...and a lot of 'double-mindedness'. So it is the nature of this beast we fight with. <P>I think Faith pointed out her husband honestly did dislike the OW...I'm sure it is like this for a good number of people. But like I said...all of us are wired differently. I would imagine that some day, I will look back on my "actions" with shame and disgust...but I doubt I will ever look on this other person that way.<P>Kathi brings up a good point as well. IT's not about comparing you with the OW. You really can't do that. I don't think it has to do with what the other person 'has' or doesn't have (breast size included here allison, if you are reading ) But it has to do with the way we make each other feel about ourselves. <P>These emotions our funny things to deal with. Sure, I'm sure some guys are probably looking for a 'different packaging'...but that is not what this has been about for me and many others. I would hate to think of my wife going out and trying to 'fit a new mold' to be more appealing. Yet, I'm sure many woman feel very threatened and their self-esteem shattered and feel compelled to compete on some degree.<P>I am confident...that things will work out for the best with my wife and I..and for my friend and her husband. I have to believe that. Even now...I wonder and hope and pray things are working out for her. But if she is feeling any of the things I am feeling, she too is struggling.<P>Yes....kathi...it really does hurt. Thanks to all of you for some great posts here this morning.<P>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited August 05, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited August 05, 2000).]

My username is freedom. I haven't been in MB since November, '99, but heard some of you would like to know what happened to me. I'll post that story if anyone really wants to know, but first read my whole story: <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009868.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009868.html</A> <P>That way you'll know where I've been. I should warn you all that what happened after this '99 post is not the happy fairy tail story ending, but if you want to hear it I'll post it. Meanwhile, I really feel for all of you on both sides of the nightmare (betrayer or betrayed). If I had to do my life over again I'd slit my wrists before getting involved with another women while still married. It accomplised nothing but destroying lives and dreams of many people - a complete train wreak.

Freedom....<P>Please...share your story with us. If for no one else...share your pain with me. I think I really need to hear it.

NoMas, NoMas, NoMas<P>First of all thank you for the thoughtful answer.<P>By the way, you failed the pop quiz.<P>Now NoMas you are a man, a Christian man at that, and when the going gets tough...the tough get going.<P>I am sure the thought of the OW (not your friend, by the way...thought we covered that) brings you pain, hurt and give you a sense of hopelessness. That is human, that is understandable. When the feeling hits you, you can not control those initial feelings.<P>However, you can control...AND IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to control your response to these feelings. HOW you do it is up to you.<P>Some suggestions would be:<BR>Give it to God. Verbally shout (if alone) "Get thee behind me, Saten!" Or "Lord, release me of these thoughts, replace them of with what You desire."<P>Depending if your thought life is more audio or video, either hit the stop button or freeze the frame mentally in your mind and yell "STOP". Then conciously replace the thought with your vision of you and your WIFE having the relationship you dream of. <P>Sing a song...please not rap...to get your mind past the torture.<P>Anything, anything, ANYTHING by giving into these thoughts!<P>Another question NoMas, and I don't care if you really want to share, but at least answer this for yourself. Ask yourself if you agree that you may not be able to control your momentary feelings, but you can alter how you respond to them. Then ask yourself what would be your best personal method.<P>You keep talking about a Plan...how you need to have a Plan to stay the course. Make this part of your plan...what do you think?<P>

Welcome Back Freedom,<P>I am curious about your story. I read your post about the whole story, and it was very interesting. I'm kind of afraid to see a negative update, but you've piqued my interest.<P>allison

Hi Allison...<P>Having a rough one today? Hope my comments earlier were not an offense to you! You do bring a refeshing sense of humor and balance here...thank you for that. <P><BR>Faith....you are keeping my on my toes! What was the "pop-quiz" that I failed?????<BR>I don't care for rap either, so no worry there. <BR>Let's see...a 'plan'...I'm still working on the details of that...will get back to you shortly. <P>

NoMas,<P>My question..."What do you do when those thoughts about OW hit you"...or something like that.<P>Your answer..."Cry, hurt and feel like there is no hope"...or something like that.<P>Buzzer sound. Wrong answer. Actually I'll correct myself here. Incomplete answer.<P>Complete the new answer, at least in your head.<P>When I my heart is seized with thoughts of OW I cry and feel hurt and hopeless. I will recognize when this happen and stop my thoughts by (fill in blank) and replace them with (fill in black)<P>Please have your corrected worksheet back to me by morning <P>Forest, I am so sorry to step all over your thread, but maybe you see some of yourself in NoMas's exchanges, too.<P>

NoMas,<P>Question...how did you know I was having a rough day? Did it show in one of my posts? <P>I take no offense to any thing posted by you, or really any others here, but wesse kind of pi$$ed me off. I appreciate the betrayers on here opening up, and will continue to appreciate it. It saves me having to knock my H unconcious, splitting open his thick skull, and having a good look around in there. Um..yeah, rough day here.<P>Freedom...still waiting for your update<P>allison<P>

Az Allison,<P>Even on our best day, it sure would be nice if we could see what was going on in that thick skull <P>Hey, when I was growing up, it seemed like Moo U or some Ag college had a cow with a window so you could see its digestive system. Maybe it is only a bad dream, but I think I might have even seen it either in a movie or on a field trip.<P>Anyway...maybe we could have one installed so we could peek in without all the gore of actually splitting their head open each time. What do you think?

Az, I am sorry you were irritated by my post. However, at some point all addicts must sincerely and genuinely seek help with no reservations, implied ifs, ands, or buts. I read implied and specified exceptions in so much of what Nomas writes. While I wish the best for Nomas, I do believe that his gift for words is a hinderance to him.<P>While my h recovered relatively quickly from his emotional affair, the damage to the quality of our relationship was very deep. He, like Nomas, has a gift for rationalization. He's an attorney and is very good at defending any given point of view. That gift together with a very stubborn nature was the biggest impediment to recovery for him. He feels that God specifically intervened to help him to get out of an addictive relationship.<P>I could have written many of Nomas' posts...... in that I have heard them professionally and I too can come up with some kind of excuse or mitigation for almost anything. You see, I'm an attorney also. I know that no matter what you say, your message won't be heard until the recipient is ready for it. Luckily, I practice in the family law field and recognized the pattern of responses that I got from my h before discovery and during counseling after discovery. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had the patience that many people here exhibit daily.<P>I have had experience with different kinds of addicts - people addicted to certain emotional highs; others addicted to alcohol and other drugs. I certainly do not have an answer when OR IF Nomas or your h or anyone else will recover. I do know that an addict can be really convincing in rationalizing their position. I am also unwaveringly certain that They do NOT need to counsel each other UNTIL after they have recovered. This is anything but my original thought. There's an old expression about the futility of "the blind leading the blind."<P>I wonder if any of these betrayers struggling long term with recovery after faithfully following Dr. Harley's no contact rule know any couple at their age and stage in life who has the quality of loving relationship that they envision with their op. If I were a betting person - and I'm not - I'd give substantial odds that their ideal real couple would not measure up if they sat down with a professional neutral and compared the facts. <P>However, I also know (stronger than believe) that none of our advice or concern or counsel will turn these guys around until they make the decision to truly let go of their romanticized picture of the op and of their relationship with the op. I understand that setbacks inevitable, but there is far more than that involved with Nomas. I liked the advice someone gave to call out to God asking his help to fight off Satan because it is Satan who is influencing them when they succumb to the temptation to romanticize about their op and their relationship. I am sure Satan smiles everytime they refuse to acknowledge their affair partner as an op. <P>Yes, a great deal of this is clear to me because I've seen the patterns repeated hundreds of times. However, without an ear ready to receive, I've said too much and will stop now. I get frustrated with Nomas, but I truly wish him well.

Where did Freedom go?<P>Okay, <P>1) About the OW terminology. I'm not particularly crazy about being called a BS--I think that's the worst acronym on this board--and that's not b.s.!! And not only that, but all these terms makes us sound so one dimensional--like that's <I>all</I> we are. But hey, for the purposes of this board--whatever! We all know we are a hell of a lot more than our acronyms! Now let's move on. Stop thinking of OW/OM as being derogatory. There are worse words that could be used you know!<P> 2) Did you know that violent people/criminals will call you B#$@% or F#*&$% in order to dehuminize you/distance themselves so that they may be able to do what they want to you without feeling guilty. If you're a F#*&$% you're not really human so it makes it easier. (An aside--if you find yourself in a violent situation--keep telling them your true name--it's a defense tool.)<P> My point? Calling the OW or OM such puts them in a one dimensional view. The relationship you have with them then isn't so beautiful and magical and emotional in generic terms. It takes the power out of that strong emotional bond, puts it under a microscope and makes it clinical. Or worse case scenario, it makes it appear cheap and tawdry. If you're still in love with your affair you don't want to see that happen and rush to protect/defend/EMPOWER it at all costs. <P>But that would be a mistake if you truly want to work at recovery. You need to look at it clinically for a while. We <I>know</I> you're looking at your SPOUSE in a less than beautiful, magical and emotional way. I guess that makes terminology act as an equalizer. <P>Calling my H a WS or betrayer isn't healthy for me--because it is so negative and it's a trigger when I'm trying to not be triggered while working on our recovery. I prefer to call him my H. <P>If I ever end up posting on the divorce/divorcing forum, I can always fall back on that old standby, "F#*&$%"! <P>You sabe?<P><BR>And just for Wesse,<P> I hear you--been there, done that, said exactly that and know what you're trying to do. You want to shake 'em out of it but that won't do anything but get you accused of throwing stones. They're wafflers--in withdrawal and looking longingly back at their A. They won't commit to recovery because of it and it's damn frustrating to sit by and watch. Save yourself an ulcer and put them in God's hands. And pray for their spouses. <P> You don't have to buy what they say but you can love them anyway. I liken it to a mental illness--seriously! (Sorry guys--but my H was just as afflicted.) They aren't dealing with reality just yet but electric shock treatment just won't work here. However much you want to give it a try! <P>Some recovering WS here say looking back during the A and while in withdrawal they feel like they don't know WHAT they were saying! How could they do that to their spouses?! It's like there was someone else at the helm--they weren't themselves! <P>Mental illness. My take on it anyway.<P> <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited August 05, 2000).]