Hi, all...I've been pretty quite lately(at least as far as this board is concerned), but I still lurk constantly and with a vengeance. I just rarely feel like putting forth the effort to respond. Sorry about that, but it's not just here I don't want to expend effort, but in my life in general.<P>Things are going fairly well, at least most of you would think so. As far as I can tell, W has pretty much ended things with OM except for the friendship thingy. He went thru some pretty tough times and W was really down about it because she feels responsible for putting him in this position. She called movers yesterday and is going to move her stuff out of the apartment and back into the house on Friday. She can't get off work, so I am going to meet them there to supervise. She last stayed in the apartment during the first week of June. She never spent a night there alone, always asking that I stay with her. She is recovering some of her "happy" mood days that were almost continuous during the latter part of April thru the end of June. Her mother and her father's sister are coming in September for a visit and I suggested that I take the week off to chauffeur them around when needed and the offer was gratefully accepted. We are talking a bit more about things(just a little).<P>There you have it. Can you believe it? I just gave you a seven-week update in one paragraph. Lori(lostva) is going to demand a DNA test now because she won't believe I'm her brother anymore!!!<P>Anyway, with all of this "good" stuff, you may wonder why I'm just going thru the motions...I guess I'm just going thru a period of self-pity and frustration at the pace of things, especially W's progress. The last time I posted(I think), I related how on July 2, we had a major discussion where W agreed to really "work" on our marriage and that I could call off the divorce "hounds". Within a couple of days of that, I realized and could feel deep down in my bones that she definitely wasn't comfortable with item number 2, so, as of today, I still haven't called my attorney. She never asked me about it either.<P>We've had a couple of minor-to-moderate arguments during this time, mostly because of the way she had acted towards me. We had just gone thru a several-week period where she seemed as happy as a lark, with me and life in general. I hadn't seen such a protracted period of smiles and gentle affections in years. Once we had the pre-Fourth discussion with the attendant agreements, every thing changed. She wasn't unfriendly or anything, but the gentle "affections"(touching as she passed, stopping to rub my shoulders or just to look at me and smile, etc.) stopped. I waited about three weeks before I mentioned this and it turned into a bit of a "spat". I gently suggested the change in her behavior I had seen and was told that she just didn't see it that nothing was different. We had this same discussion about three times and each time it became a mild argument with her getting defensive.<P>The worst one was just before we went to a concert the last Sunday in July. We were talking about this same subject and I had asked why our sex life had gone to pot over the last two or three months. I suggested that I felt that the only times "it" happened were when she was just so physically horny that she had to do it. Her response was that she didn't know but that could be the explanation. Well, I was really bummed out by this information. A couple of hours before we were supposed to leave for the concert, she decided to take a nap. She finally got up about 10 minutes before we needed to leave and we ended up leaving about 15 minutes later than planned. As I backed out of the driveway, I cut the wheels too hard and the car bounced a bit when it rolled off the driveway and onto the street. W exploded saying "If you are going to drive like f***ing that, you can just let me out of the car right now!". Well, that p***ed me off so we argued most of the way to the concert, finally declaring a truce and both apologizing for what had happened about five minutes before we got there. We drank wine and talked during the concert which we both enjoyed immensely.<P>Once we got home, somehow the argument got started up again. At one point in reference to her comment about our sex life, I made some stupid comment about feeling like a "dildo". That sure didn't help things at all!! (OK, a LB'er I know, so the line of you guys that want to smack me upside the head forms to the right) She eventually started into the old diatribe about how I keep her from doing things. I kept insisting that she should just start doing the things she wanted and let the chips fall where they may. Either I would accept it or I wouldn't, but I was tired of hearing how I "did" these things in the past. I said that if she couldn't just let go of the past and move forward to see if things and feelings change, we shouldn't be together.<P>OK, now you are going to love this...I asked that she think of one thing that she wanted to do that she felt I was preventing her from accomplishing. She thought a second and then said, "I want to go to the Dunes(National Park about 100m from here) with OM, Peter and Bobby(names changed to protect the *******s, all three are single guys from her office). I calmly asked her if it was an overnight thing and she said "It's a four-day trip". <Insert MY explosion here> I asked her "Don't you see anything inappropriate about this?" We argued for a few minutes about this and I finally told her I needed a smoke. The nicotine gave me a brilliant(ly stupid idea), so I went back in and told her that if that was what she wanted to do, I wouldn't give her any grief about it if she could follow some "rules" for the trip. She asked what they were and I told her: 1) No fooling around; 2) no "romancing" or affection; 3) she slept in her own sleeping bag and her own tent, alone. There was one more but I have forgotten what it was. Her response was that those rules were perfectly acceptable that nothing like any of that was going to happen. I said that if she could do things that way, it would give me the best chance of accepting it, that I would try my best but there were no guarantees. I told her that right now, I felt I could accept it, but that she may come back to find her stuff on the doorstep and the locks changed. I would work hard to keep that from happening, but I couldn't predict how I would be feeling then.<P>A little later she started crying and saying that I was making her feel like this was all wrong. I said that it WAS very wrong as far as I was concerned for someone who was married, but I could understand how she might feel differently, and to quote "Seinfeld", "Not that there's anything wrong with that(her perspective)". Well, the next evening when she got home from work, I told her I wanted to talk for a few minutes. I kept a smiling face and pleasant demeanor and started the conversation with a reference to her proposed trip. I said, "I've been wanting you to start doing the things you feel I hold you back on, just to prove it one way or the other. Isn't it just my luck that the first thing you choose to do is probably the one hardest thing for me to deal with? (Insert chuckle here) I don't know how well I'm going to handle this, but it will be a good test of character, anyway.". At this point, she was looking at the floor and said that she wasn't going. I asked her if it was because of me and she said no, it was because of her. So I guess I won't have to deal with that.<P>There have been a couple of other "discussions" in the last two weeks, but I'm just too tired to go into them. The crux is that after we talk, things get better for a couple of days, then back into the "distance" mode. I'm sure it will get better, I'm just impatient I guess.<P>--DeWayne--<P>BTW, maybe no DNA test is necessary, the above might be verbose enough to convince Lori we are still related...LOL...

Yup, we're still related!!! <P>I have too much to say and not enough time right now...I'll get back to you. But, then, you do know most of what I have to say anyway!!! Just repeat to yourself most of the advice you've given ME over the last few months!!!!<P>Time to step back a minute, ya know?<P>Luv ya!<P>Lori

Hi, <B>Sis -</B> Yeah, I know the drill. I guess that I'm just tired of this. I'll find some strength somewhere and buck up and quit my complaining at some point.<P>As most people realize, it's easier to give advice than to take it, especially when it's your own....<P>She asked me at one point what I meant by "working" on the marriage. I just said that if she didn't want professional help, that we should discuss each issue and find ways to correct them. I believe that she thinks we can ignore all of this and somehow it will all go away. Wish it were true, but ignoring things and not discussing them were the ingredients to getting into this mess in the first place. I don't want a repeat.<P>luv ya,<BR>--DeWayne--

Just a little Hi from a long-lost from the bowels of lurkdom friend...<P>No advice... sorry, my life is so screwy that I couldn't BEGIN to offer help to anyone else...<P>Just sending good thoughts your way, and a BIG HUG!<P>Sheryl

DeWayne,<P>WOW! I know I would have lost my cool if my stbx mentioned going anywhere with some women. I bow before you O Great One! LOL LOL<P>I know you get tired and feel like giving up but I honestly think you're gonna make it. I believe that she will do what needs to be done to keep you. I just hope she does it soon.<P>(((((Hugs))))) to ya,<BR>Mitzi

<B>Sheryl - </B>Thanks for making the trip "up"!! I don't consider you or your situation "screwed up". It is a bit unusual, but, hey, the last time we chatted it seemed you were happy or at least on the road to being happy. That's really something in itself.<P><B>Mitzi - Good to hear from you. </B>I <B>did</B> lose my cool for a minute or two. I don't know if she was really serious or just trying to cause trouble or shake me up. I really think it was the former.<P>I don't think she's going to do what it takes to "keep" me. It's more like not doing things on a consistent basis that would drive me away. I could tell there was another one of their "car" chats on Tuesday. These are the ones where they sit in her car in the parking lot of her office while she has a smoke. It allows them to talk about "private" things they don't want others overhearing, which are almost always "feelings" chats.<P>She has been open about some things, but she makes sure that they are "innocent" ones. Like on Friday, OM had car trouble on the way into work and he left his car at the repair shop. He called her and she picked him up there and took him to work. Then volunteered to take him back to the shop after work that day. She tells me these things, then tries to gauge my response. I have learned that it is best to just react matter-of-factly. It avoids trouble.<P>In fact, that seems to be what my whole personal life with her is right now, "avoiding trouble", as in not discussing my feelings or needs or problems I have with anything she might have done. She doesn't want to hear these things. I could go on and on, but I won't bore you.....<P>--DeWayne--

Heartpain,<P>Sorry for my ignorance here, but why do you allow all this contact to continue? Why are you not following the Harley principles? I would be in plan B by now if I was in your shoes. I think she is taking advantage of the situation and you are letting it continue.<P>Sorry if all this is way off base.<P>Reborn<BR>

Hi, <B>Reborn -</B> We had a discussion about this in a "co-workers affairs" thread. Rather than just point you there and let you find what I said, I'll quote it here:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Lori and I discussed this exact issue this morning. I agree with her that the "no-contact" part of the MB philosophy doesn't seem to be absolutely necessary. By writing a "no-contact" letter, you are just setting the stage for hurt feelings, lies and LB'ers. If you don't believe that, just read thru the posts. There are very few where a "no-contact" agreement wasn't violated at least once, if not several times. And when they work together, it's almost impossible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So that's my philosophy on "no-contact". As far as you asking about me following MB principles, I do believe that <I>in general,</I> the Harleys are right on. However, I'm a big believer in the concept that even though we humans tend to "follow the herd", we also are unique in many ways, especially behavior. I feel that the MB principles have to be modified sometimes to fit certain situations.<P>In my situation, insisting on "no contact" would be the equivalent of telling my W, "I don't want to work on the marriage, let's get the divorce right now". She has an issue with perceived "control" and this would just fit right into it, so I won't do it. I do not believe that affairees, in all cases, have to have strict "no contact", after all, how many times to couples(even some marrieds) split up and remain friends afterward. Not the vast majority, I agree, but some do.<P>My two cents(only worth 0.5 on today's market).<P>--DeWayne--<BR>

Heartpain -<P>Just lurking, but wow, you are even more amazing than my own H. I think you handled the situations as best you could - given the circumstances. Even though your W has to work with the OM - that doesn't mean she has to do non-related work activities with him.<P>I am a WS who totally believes in the no contact principle - it works for me. I think it would be much harder to see the OM, talk to him, go camping with him (whazzzup with that!! That is amazing that she would even suggest that - why couldn't you go with them?? But, I guess that's not my point)<P>I just think you are doing a phenomenal (?) job under extraordinary conditions. . .In some ways, I feel like the poster child for WSs, so I feel like I need to at least say that I'm sorry you have to go through that.<P>I'm sure all of us have our ups and downs - probably not quite as down as yours, but, you know what I mean -the pain is all relative to the people involved. I think you deserve the purple heart or something. Hang in there.

Hey Stranger!!!<P>I just popped on for a moment and I spent it on another thread before seeing this one!!!! Sorry....but I will be back to talk to you later!!!<P>So for now, HI and I think that you are doing a great job so here's an ATTABOY for ya!!!!<P>I also believe that we need a new script because Robert wants his own horse now to join us and this just changes everything!!!! And Lord knows what we are going to do about "Joxer" disappearing......you better get to work!!!!!<P>When I get back - I expect to see Scene one and two........<P>LOL!!!!<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba

<B>SKM - </B> Thank you for the complement(Blushing!!), but I think all of us here are amazing in our own way. After all, we all had the fortitude to come here and discuss our situations and problems with total strangers, didn't we???<P>Don't get me wrong. There's a difference in "no-contact" and "insisting on no-contact"(making it mandatory). There are times when one would have to insist on it. Certainly, I would prefer W to not have anything to do with OM(more than anything, actually), but sometimes requiring "no-contact", in some cases and some times, is a marriage-breaker. Unfortunately, I am in one of those situations.<P>Point well taken on non-work related activities. To her credit, she hasn't(to my knowledge) done anything like that since D-day. But, I hear over and over how I prevent her from doing the things she wants to do. It may be true, but it's only in her mind. For years, I encouraged her to go out with friends alone, to get involved in extra-curricular work activities, etc., but she had it in her mind that I wouldn't like it so she didn't and then blamed me.<P>The one thing in this that was hardest for me to learn was something my wise friend DuncanMac said: "It's not important whether or not it's true, just that she thinks it is".<P>Don't get me wrong, I'm really not that down. There are a whole lot of people here(90 percent) that have worse situations than mine. I'm just tired of this whole mess. I've worked very, very hard and survived a number of wet-noodle lashings on this board, to create a better me. I don't see anything like this happening on the other side. If it doesn't require any effort, she will do it.<P>She went thru a time where she was very depressed and down because OM was taking it very hard that she didn't want a relationship with him. OK, that's fine. I told her last week that it had hurt me because she had been in so much obvious pain, feeling like she was the cause of his pain, and she never, ever stated or demonstrated any real concern about what I went thru in all of this. Her response was just that she did feel this way, but I never saw it. Well, I'm sorry, but I didn't see it because it was never demonstrated.<P>Oh, well, better stop. You really got me going this morning...LOL.. You take care, SKM, and hugs to you. You are doing well and taking the time to try to help me. Thanks...<P><B>Sheba -</B> Thanks, but I don't need an ATTABOY, I need a life partner and best friend.<P>Well, since Tim(Medic) doesn't seem to be available, maybe we will just re-cast Robert as "Joxer".<P>Another horse??? I have to pay those horses more than I pay you and Lori!!!(They have better agents). If my creative juices ever start re-flowing, maybe we can have some more fun...<P>Luv ya,<BR>--DeWayne--

Dewayne,<P>I have read several of your post on the board. I think I may haev responded to a few of them. So I thought I would give my $.02 on the subject.<P>OM contact- Read mt thread "I met OM last night"<P>I think you are right about the different situations. At this point and time I feel much much better about it. I know that OM and I will never be. Unfortunatly, I had to learn the hard way. <BR>You woudnt believe the stuff taht I would do to try to see him. Drive by the road that he works on. Be on that road when he gets off just so he could pass me. Be at the gas station when i knew he would be driving by on his way to work. Wait until all cars had left teh pumps so I could make sure that mine was the first car that he would see.<BR>LMAO!!!! Isnt this sick and pathetic!!!<BR>Drive by his house to see if I could see him outside. Have friends take me by there. You would not believe what I done. I would literally beg him to meet me. So I was at fault. It was really "him" I dont think. As much as it was the "Addiction". I made no no contact for about 4 months or so. Then you know how that goes. You can read my threads.<P>You ahev to read the "I met OM last night"<BR>That was a good one. When I did meet him you could tell that part of him wanted me and part of him didnt. And vice-versa. I t had died at that point. Not saying that I dont feel for him. Dang I do. But this is the way it has to be.<P>Is the OM married? I cant remember. I dont think he is. That may play a part..<P>BTW!!!!! WOW!!!!!!!!!! YOU DESERVE A BIG PAT ON THE BACK FOR THAT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>PRAYERS<BR>RENEE<P>------------------<BR>We can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. Repeat that 5 times a day. I promise you success!