Let's say you are depressed because your life has been less successful than you hoped, you are getting old, you can't stand where you live, you can't stand your neighbors, your job is stressful, and you have no clue where you are going to get the money to put your kids through college or to move to somewhere better. You can solve most of those problems in one fell swoop - just find someone with more money and move in with her. Then your expenses go way down, you can afford nice vacations, and even if you get laid off you never have to fear about having a roof over your head or food to eat. And you are only required to pay as much child support as you can reasonably comfortably afford - and it doesn't matter whether that is enough to actually support your children. Unless you have plenty of money, you don't have to worry about paying for college anymore. You don't have to worry about how that affects your children, or how they feel about you, because they don't matter so much anymore. <P>In this state, you don't have to worry about alimony unless you are quite wealthy. You don't have to worry about taking care of your children when they are sick, or who is going to take care of them when your spouse has to go back to work to support them, because that is the custodial parent's responsibility. You don't have to worry about how to juggle work and family. Unlike the custodial parent, you are free to take jobs that require travel and overtime if you wish. Meanwhile the custodial parent is restricted to jobs that are extremely flexible, where they don't mind if you don't come in because yet another child is sick. <P>Basically you don't have to worry about any responsibility ever again. You can see your children whenever you want, but never when it is inconvenient. Your young children will never get angry at you, because they will be too afraid that you will stop loving them too. If they do anything you don't like, you can see them less often. You can control their behavior with the threat, implied if not stated, that spending time with you is a privilege that can easily be withdrawn. And if your older children are angry, what the heck, it's their fault and their loss.<P>Nothing is your fault. Everything is someone else's fault - your wife is stupid, your kids are selfish, etc. <P>And I don't believe "What goes around comes around". It is perfectly possible to go through life without any repercussions from the affair. You don't need your old friends, because the OW will supply new ones. Your family doesn't care. <P>As long as you can convince yourself that your relationship with your children is the children's responsibility, and as long as nothing is your fault, there is no downside to leaving your family. People claim that betrayers feel guilt, and that is probably true of the betrayers who post here. The ones who don't feel guilt are not likely to post. As long as you can avoid feeling guilt, and many people can, there is no downside. You can just hop into an entirely new life, with little responsibility.

Nellie1,<P>Sounds like you're having a shi**y day too!<P>There is a downside Nellie1. They will have to answer to the Lord in the next life. They know what they're doing is wrong.<P>They may perceive themselves happy now and maybe in the future but it is an illusion and in order to perpetuate the illusion they have to keep feeding it. When they do they hurt more people, people that once loved them. I think eventually they'll find themselves more alone then they ever imagined.<P>Nellie1, one day your H is going to want to really talk to you about things ... and if he waits too long it may be too late. <P>Reading your post made me so sad to know people can look at ones that love them as "things". I almost want to loose faith in my fellow human beings. It's very very sad.<P>Jo

AMEN JO!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>Listen to her Nellie!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>We can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. Repeat that 5 times a day. I promise you success!

Nellie: You and I must be married to twins!! As much as I try to think differently, many times I also feel the same as you. I've been divorced 3 yrs now, and have yet to see or hear about any remorse for the extreme pain his affair and subsequent divorce has casued me, esp. after 28 yrs of marriage. However, since so much time has passed, I don't know if any talking now would even mean anything.<BR>As for them having to pay in the next life, it really doesn't help us out much in this life. I guess I'm tired of being the responsible one, while he is off in the fantqasy land.<P>I do know and understand how you feel. Guess I am also having a bad day. I pray everyday not to feel this way, and hopefully one day I won't and you won't either. Just know someone in Fl. is thinking of you and your situation and is praying for us both.

Nellie:<P>Unfortunately, my experience mirrors yours and I often feel the same way. But ultimately, I think there is a cost and it's extremely high. Our husbands never will know the joy and closeness that comes from a close-knit, loving family, one built on doing the right things and being there for those you love when needed. They may be able to shirk responsibility and guilt forever, but it's a hollow life they live. Even with the problems, our lives are better.

Hey Nellie, I really know how you feel. But you know...they have to look at themselves in the mirror. And by the way you describe your H he cannot be too happy!!!!<P>I wouldn't want to live like that. This is my life too. And my childrens life, and although I am bone weary from this onslaught, I plan to enjoy them and each day. (or at least a major part of the day, after a daily cry!!!!)<P>I miss my H. I miss his touch. His soft words. But I look at him and he is not happy. He may tell OP that he loves her, but the two of them are a mess right now. I have a hard time understanding how "love" actually makes you depressed, sick to your stomach all the time and unable to sleep. <P>Everyone says my H looks depressed. He worries to OP about me and the kids (though is angry with me). What a life!!! Is that really a life???????<P><BR>For what ever reason they leave, looking for happiness, needs not being discussed or met, running from death..... in the end it's the love you give!!!! Is this giving love??? Does love hurt so many people????<P>I feel overwhelmed by it all also. I am afraid also.... but God is working!!!

After a yaer of reading posts on this forum I believe that the WS is living in their own kind of hell that they do not know how to get themselves out of. Does that excuse the way they behave? No. <BR>For some reason these spouses no longer feel that they can deal with the reponsibilities of life. They revert back to their teenage years when they only had themselves to worry about. My H told me he can't help how he feels. I told him that we all have the feelings that we sometimes just want to run, be free ect but as adults we don't act on them. I told him that at 40 he should be mature enough to know right from wrong. He then told me that he can't live miserable for the rest of his life. I know that he will be miserable until he can figure out just what it is he is lacking. I know its nothing I didn't do its him. He will have to live with this guilt for the rest of his life and at least I know I did everything I could do to help him. Their comes a time when he has to either sink or swim.<P>Jill

Jo,<P>Last I knew, my H believed in reincarnation, and coming back at a different level based on your behavior in your previous life - sometimes I wonder what he expects to come back as.<P>Unfortunately, my H has rarely wanted to really talk to anyone about anything. Neither did his father or mother, as far as I can tell. Several months before he left, I asked him to talk to our 12 year old son about sex. I wouldn't have been too surprised if he had been reluctant because he was uncomfortable - but he didn't have a clue why it was necessary. He said that our son was welcome to ask him questions whenever he wanted, but it apparently never occurred to him that unless he as a father initiated a discussion it might never happen..<P>inamess,<P>I wish I could believe that someday he would feel remorse - but I am not at all sure that will ever happen.<P>db713,<P>Thank you for your support. I am becoming convinced that some people, even people who were previously good men, become incapable of any feelings whatsoever except anger. <P>Distressed,<P>It is good to hear from you again. <P>I agree that their lives are hollow - but as long as they don't want any more than that, does it really make any difference? I often wondered how my H's parents could go months without communicating with him, not because anyone was feuding, but apparently because no one got around to it. But it never seemed to bother them much, especially his father. <P>tootrusting,<P>I can't tell whether my H is happy or not - when he talks to me, he almost always just seems angry. In his emails to me, he either implies that I am stupid, or comes right out and says so. <P>He has given up pretty much everything that was important to him, but it doesn't seem to matter. <P>Jill,<P>My H said almost exactly the same thing - that he couldn't help his emotions. In many ways he acts and talks as if he feels that he has no control over what he does, or what happens in his life. I know that that is indicative of depression, but depression seems to be one of the few illnesses where the person who has it can be oblivious to it while everyone else suffers.

Nellie, I firmly believe there are consequences...you may not get to see them or understand what they are...but your husband will reap what he has sown. <P>It's just lousy what he's doing to you and your kids.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Nellie}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Nellie, I'm sure it is not happiness and yes your are right, when it comes to depression, they are oblivious and everyone else suffer.<P>Here it is the night before school starts. We have one beginning middle (the used to be apple of his eye) and one starting K (the first he'll miss going the first day)<P>He is so self absorbed. He could only discuss with me what I'm doing about selling the house, what he is doing re" the D, and how I'll never get over it! and what about the kids being withOW. Now mind you, she is still complaining about my H to her H. She hasn't even filed yet. My H spent the night here in May and told our eldest in June (in counseling ) that he was sad and confused.<P>Now here it is, August, and he is somehow expecting me to be over it.(which things is he talking about. the lying, the bizaarness, the sudden hatred, the coldness to the kids, having an affair with a m coworker who I know and who my kids know???)<P><BR>And yet he can still only think about her!!<P>There is nothing to say to a person like that. I am in agreement. I still say, I will somehow be happy. Maybe not tomorrow. But it is my life and I will do it! I,m not sure how, but I'll let you know when I do!!!!

Hi Nellie,<P>Unfortunately, I think you are entirely right.<P>Some people have the capacity to hurt others and never look back...<P>My h hurt me more than I ever believed he would, but I'm fortunate. He realized the error of his ways and now we can have a great marriage as long as I can find it in my heart to really leave what happened in the past.<P>Your post made me think of my father. At 39, I have still held on to the hope that he may one day be a father to me. I am now letting go of that hope. He cheated on my mother, which resulted in their divorce. He had NO CONTACT with me until I was 17.<P>To make it short, he still acts like it is such a privilege for me to see him once a year and for my kids to see him. My mother had no means and he made all these promises to help me through college. All lies.<P>He is now 62. His wife (who treats me like dirt) was mad at me so he didn't return any calls for a year (I haven't even shared any of my marriage stuff). There is still this childish part to me in dealing with him. I take it as rejection and hurt.<P>I guess it is hard to get over the wish to have someone on your side, that cares about you.<P>I am finally realizing if there is to be any relationship, it will have to be on my terms for once. That means there won't be. I realize this is not something you can fully do since he is the father of the kids.<P>

Lor,<P>Thanks. One of the worst parts is that it is demonstrating to the kids that there are no consequences, and they are learning that a superficial relationship with your father is the way to go. I worry especially about our son, who is the only male is a housefull of females, and who said right after his father left that he would never marry because he didn't want to risk doing to his wife what his father has done to me. <P>tootrusting,<P>People who have been depressed say it is a horrible feeling, but it seems that once they self-treat with an affair, everyone else suffers from their attempt at a cure.<P>schizzo,<P>I wish there were a way to predict who would be capable of this. Whatever faults my H may have had, I never in a million years would have described him as cruel. Shortly after he left he said something about how he didn't like to hurt people, but he also said that a few months before he left (which happened of course to be when the affair began) he stopped caring.

Nellie,<BR>You are right.....they really do not care,but even if they profess to the world that they are happy,they are not. How can they be happy if they are still angry with you, or a child etc?<P>You desribe the manipulation of the children exactly as has happened with my family.......<P>I did not agree,but now do,that the person who they choose to be with is a big factor in how they relate to their wife/ stbx/ x and the children. His ow is clueless about parenting and responsibilityand so enables this non-communication,enables his adolescent behaviour......etc.....<P>Financially it does not matter how much they have...they do not want to use a dime for the benefit of their children...unless there is a benefit to themselves. In my H case, he needs every penny to buy the materialistic things that make him and ow happy...basically he is buying her love....which is what your H's ow is doing for your H.....This enables them to be cocooned away from the outside world and not face the consequnces of their actions ....ever......<BR>I am so sorry that you are hurting so badly due to your H's financial situation and unemployment.I can only imagine your situation and I so admire your fortitude.<BR>My H simply chooses not to give what is due to his kids...and this angers me immensely. He has manipulated and chosen which child to fund....and controls their behaviour in this way. One son is further rewarded since his relationship with me is eroded and in tatters...and this is not only at my expense,but at the expense of H' relationship with the other 3......<P>One day he will reap what he sowed.......or not,I really do not know

willbok,<P>In my H's case, much of what he seemed to believe about child raising has gone out the window, and he seems to now listen only to what the OW believes. On numerous occasions people have told me out of the blue how well-behaved and polite our children are, but it seems like the OW has convinced him otherwise.

I think the legal system is horrible, but it is the way it is because law makers cheat! They want to protect themselves at the expense of society as a whole, at the expense of their own children. Unfortunately, I don't see it changing. So yes, you are right about a lot of what you posted.<P>But, there is a downside to being a betrayer. The downside is that no matter how much you rationalize your behaviour away, no matter how much there is no outward punishement or condemnation for the sickening behaviour, you can't escape divine justice and you can't escape yourself.

Nellie,<P>Yes, there is definately a down side. I was the betrayer 14 years ago with my FW. I believe that the problems I am having now are "payback" What goes around does come around, Karma. <P>I can't believe that I was so stupid to hurt the woman I loved and deprive my children of a father for the 9 months I was with the OW. I will take that to the grave. When I look at my kids or talk to the X, I am reminded of my failure.<P>I lost out on seeing my two boys grow up. I missed out on roughly 10 years of their life. I never saw my youngest take his first steps or use the potty for the first time. Silly, you may say, but it still hurts me. I have not connected with him yet and he is 15.<P>Believe me, one day your H will have to own up for his actions. I had to.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Tim

Please know that those of us with a conscience do understand the downside of our behaviors. I get to live with the fact that I destroyed a man that loves me very much. I get to live with the fact that my children don't think very highly of a mother that does not think very highly of herself and her family. I get to live with the fact that I was a horribly cruel person and there is no innocence left in me.<P>No matter how good my marriage is when we are done rebuilding, I get to live with the fact that I betrayed all that was good in my life.<P>Some of us know how badly we screwed up. And some of us will always be very sorry.

No one gets off the hook...all those before me have already said it. It will eventually come around. A Betrayer can try to kid themselves but at some point... now or much later they come up short. You can only kid yourself for so long. They will have to face the music ALONE. <P>Jackee<P>

Tootrusting:<P>"He is so self absorbed." <P>"And yet he can still only think about her!!<P>"There is nothing to say to a person like that. I am in agreement. I still say, I will somehow be happy. Maybe not tomorrow. But it is my life and I will do it! I,m not sure how, but I'll let you know when I do!!!!":[/B][/QUOTE]<P>Amen! This is my H to a tee. We are not in the process of a D, but I feel the need to get myself together and make a life for myself, before a D requires me to do it. He is still living at home(sep. rms.) and comm. is dwindling. All he thinks about is her(too.) More power to you!<P><p>[This message has been edited by burnedspouse (edited August 21, 2000).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schizzo:<P>Schizzo<BR>"He is now 62...There is still this childish part to me in dealing with him. I take it as rejection and hurt.<P>I guess it is hard to get over the wish to have someone on your side, that cares about you."<P><BR>My father and mother also divorced. My mom had the OM, though. He was the BS. He took it very badly. He never was able to express his feelings to anyone, and when he got hurt(like us not coming over on his weekends) he never told us. He allowed himself to get hurt and be bitter becasue he could not express himself. Gee,my H is like this <P>When i was an adult and married, I was feeling the hurt. i felt he never really cared about me because i need verbal showing of affection. I took him out to dinner. Just he and I and got the most private table in the place. I talked to him about my feelings and this led him to confess, after 20 years, what he had felt at the time, and how much we had hurt him. He felt abandoned by us, etc. <P>I realize this is not exactly the thing with your dad, but at least expressing your life full of feelings to him and the consequences your dad has created, he would know how you have been feeling all this time. Then you could let him go easier, if he does not respond positively. Kind of sounds like what one must do with the WS, huh? Honesty, etc can work with your parents too.<P>I now understand where my Dad is coming from and I know that I can accept the parts of his personality that I cannot change; they no longer wound me, because I know they are not personal.<P>I hope this helps.<P>[This message has been edited by burnedspouse (edited August 21, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by burnedspouse (edited August 21, 2000).]