Too everyone who responded to "A Sticky One", "Help!!!!!", "Anything to succeed", and "I can't believe this is happening", you were all correct I am sad to say.<P>I have confirmed that my W and a past professor have been involved in an A. I found his emails and they describe his feelings for my W, feelings towards me and a description of their sex acts. After reading my past postings you will know how I admired this professor. <P>I see no way to reconcile with my W. How could I ever trust her again when the lies and deception continued up to A FEW HOURS BEFORE I FOUND THE EMAILS(he emailed to say he loved her too while I was out last night). I know others on this forum have reconciled but there is no hope for my marriage. My W admitted that she never planned to work through our problems and it was only a matter of time before she would end the marriage. <P>Sorry Mynabird, no gig today. I thought there might be a chance that you might get a chance to do a little dance of joy but...well....<P>Just wanted to give an update and to thank you all for your support this summer. You guys hit it right on the head. Funny, I told her of MB and the overwhelming opinion about her relationship with this prof, she dismissed the accusations and became more like her old self for a while. <P>AC2

One favor...for the time being...don't make a single life-changing decision for now, PLEASE?????????<P>Trust me, from someone who's been there, now's the time just to step back and try to take care of yourself and get through this. You have PLENTY of time to decide what will/should or should not be.<P>I'm sorry for what you're going through...I remember it. Talk here for a while, not to your wife, ok? <P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

Thanks Lori. <P>I really can't see anyway of working through this. So many blatant lies, an A with a professor I held up as a hero figure and greatly respected, and admitting she never intended on working out our problems. Quote "...the only thing I feel guilty about is leading you to believe we would work things out..." <P>These two have shown utter disregard for me, his wife and his two children. All for what? I asked her to explain why they did this...the answer...you wouldn't understand. Can you believe that?! They have committed adultry for some highly "moral" reason that surpasses the understanding of us mere mortals chained to those silly wedding vows.<P>I have loved my wife unconditionally and at one point, seriously considered giving up the pursuit of my dreams so that we could stay together. That, I see know, was thrown back in my face. <P>AC2<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostva:<BR><B>One favor...for the time being...don't make a single life-changing decision for now, PLEASE?????????<P>Trust me, from someone who's been there, now's the time just to step back and try to take care of yourself and get through this. You have PLENTY of time to decide what will/should or should not be.<P>I'm sorry for what you're going through...I remember it. Talk here for a while, not to your wife, ok? <P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><p>[This message has been edited by anncicero2 (edited August 26, 2000).]

A2-<BR>I am so sorry you had this happen to you. It is so painful to find out about recent lies when you have worked so hard at the truth.<P>I just found out yesterday at couseling, that my H wants to save his marr(I tried to put a reason here, I don't know why!), he wants to protect the kids. But he also wants the OW. I found she had called a few times and I got upset because she should not have a Get out of Jail Free Card and call whenever she needs his support--I am getting none! He has not told her this. I told him my boundries were that she had to comply with the 60 day no contact too, it was only fair to us. He said, "Then it's over!"... and I said ,"Our marriage?"... And he said "No, she would end it."... And I said "oh, you don't want to lose HER,"... and he burst into tears. <P>YOu see, I am not even in the equation. His kids, his marriage(how he can have it without me-?) and her. Where do I fit in? Boy, I feel abandoned by him almost every day!!! No wonder he won't tell me anything personal. I asked him why he thought I was not even being considered here, and he said he didn't know. Selfish prig!!!!!<P>Sorry, I let that vent slip out, but I am stepping back. Just to view from a safe distance, because this close scrutiny is killing me and my self esteem.<P>It is time for you to step back, too. Tell your wife you are not going to support her and she must move out. Even try a legal seperation. Then just see what happens. The A may then burn itself out. Be patient a little longer before you file. <P>I know that there are others out there that have more pertinent examples of why he should do this. Or not do this...

It's OK to vent. I totally understand. It has been about 8 hours since I found the emails. At first I didn't feel anything, I just wanted to close my eyes and go back to before this summer. Now, I only feel more and more anger. Even as I write this, she is in the next room talking on her cell phone. Most likely to him. It's been ringing like crazy all morning. God only knows what plan they are hatching now to save their worthless hides. <P>This couldn't come at a worse time. We are both Doctoral students and the semester has just begun. Haven't had time to get into a routine and settle into the stress and pace. <P>It is my guess that he is monitoring this, I am a little reluctant to write freely. <P>I tried to reach out to her by telling her to read my posting here and maybe something would click with her. What I got in return was their manipulation game. OM wrote in recent email"...I'll read what he is writing on that forum if you think it will help me advise you better..."<P>The classical music world is a VERY small place. While this will make some waves and they may be a little embarrassed, he has many connections that will make it very difficult for me to pursue my career. This, on top of all the things we do to ourselves to slow our progress towards our goals, adds up to a difficult road ahead.<P>I only wonder what they are telling each other and justifying this!! I have never known this kind of evil soul till now. That surely sounds a little overly dramatic but how do you put into proper words the hard knocks of growing up. And I'm a Doctoral student!<P>AC2 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by burnedspouse:<BR><B>A2-<BR>I am so sorry you had this happen to you. It is so painful to find out about recent lies when you have worked so hard at the truth.<P>I just found out yesterday at couseling, that my H wants to save his marr(I tried to put a reason here, I don't know why!), he wants to protect the kids. But he also wants the OW. I found she had called a few times and I got upset because she should not have a Get out of Jail Free Card and call whenever she needs his support--I am getting none! He has not told her this. I told him my boundries were that she had to comply with the 60 day no contact too, it was only fair to us. He said, "Then it's over!"... and I said ,"Our marriage?"... And he said "No, she would end it."... And I said "oh, you don't want to lose HER,"... and he burst into tears. <P>YOu see, I am not even in the equation. His kids, his marriage(how he can have it without me-?) and her. Where do I fit in? Boy, I feel abandoned by him almost every day!!! No wonder he won't tell me anything personal. I asked him why he thought I was not even being considered here, and he said he didn't know. Selfish prig!!!!!<P>Sorry, I let that vent slip out, but I am stepping back. Just to view from a safe distance, because this close scrutiny is killing me and my self esteem.<P>It is time for you to step back, too. Tell your wife you are not going to support her and she must move out. Even try a legal seperation. Then just see what happens. The A may then burn itself out. Be patient a little longer before you file. <P>I know that there are others out there that have more pertinent examples of why he should do this. Or not do this...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><p>[This message has been edited by anncicero2 (edited August 27, 2000).]

Man oh man, I'm sorry for you. I know all too well how you feel! If you'll recall, I found out about the A only 6 weeks ago. The only thing I could offer now is: Don't give up yet!<P>I thought my marriage was totally over. My W has moved out, filled out divorce papers, opened her own accounts, etc. Then, a couple of weeks ago, she put everything on hold. She began to doubt what she was doing, and agreed to see a therapist. She hasn't decided if she's willing to save our marriage yet, but at least it's a "stay of execution!"<P>I'd like to tell you it will get better, but unfortunately it won't. This is the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with, and I suspect you're in for some of the same feelings. It's weird that she reads this board and still thinks what she's doing is o.k. <P>I'd direct her to the post from saf called "but I love the OM!"<P>It pretty much matches everything the WS usually says (mine included). The responses from Just Learning and others are just killer. Maybe it will help her see the light a little.<P>Don't do what I did, either. Don't be judgemental, don't lay a guilt trip on her, don't try to shame her into ending the A, don't yell, don't try to convince her the OM is a bad guy, don't snoop, need I say more?<P>Just be there for her whenever she needs you, continue Plan A at all costs, even when you think it isn't working. Never, ever, ever let her forget that you love her. Don't push her away, but don't try to draw her closer. You've held up your end, honored your vows, and fulfilled your committment to her. Continue to be her husband. She has to come to the realization that she's wrong on her own. Hopefully she will arrive there before its too late. <P>I'm right there with you, man. Good luck!<BR>

Ok, now, you're not feeling anything that we all haven't felt....we do understand...to all of you who are stuck in this place, we really do understand. The pain, the betrayal, the anger, the hurt, the disillusionment, the hundreds of emotions that you never knew you were capable of.<P>Still, I stand by my recommendation, now is NOT the time to do anything. It's too new, too raw (and to tell you the truth, stays that way for a little while, weeks perhaps). <P>You don't hear from me a lot 'cause I don't NEED this board a lot anymore, but I was there more than a year ago. And so were many many other recoverers (like that word?) here. We do know. I'm not asking to you decide to work on your marriage, I'm asking you to lean on us and not do ANYTHING right now. <P>You're not hearing anything from her any different than any of us did. Popular phrases can be found in the "Betrayers Handbook, Page 255"! Mine chose at first "You don't know how many times I wished one of us had been killed in an accident so that I could be released from these pits of hell." That sounds pretty definite, huh? Ouch!<P>Just take it easy, talk to us here. There's plenty of time to sort out the other stuff.<P>Hang in there - for yourself, right now.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

I second that lori.<P>A2,<BR>You are where I have been. The pain of the lies, disbelief in their moral attitude, justification for their behavior. I fault both, more now the OM.<BR>But...as all have said so far...and as confusing as it may sound right now, do step back and look in yourself. I thought I had grown more than I thought possible and was done, then I found a new little book (check out Other Topics for my "review".) which showed I was only half way there. Improving yourself is hard with this pain, I know. It may be a struggle NOT to LB by exposing this to everyone, this I know too. I can't say which way this may go for you, but by visibly trying on your part, YOU know you will have tried.<P>I hope for the chance to hear my W to say she is sorry, as she has heard me say, and too many little miracles have happened to let me give up. Others may tell me otherwise when I post that question someday soon.<P>Take care,<BR>RRunRR<BR><P>------------------<BR>Almost anything can be undone or forgiven.<P>Never take trust for granted.

Thank you rrunrr.<P>I know I shouldn't give up on my marriage but I have tried very hard to keep us together. She said she believed I needed to talk to a professional and that might make our marriage better. Without hesitation, I did. If it would save our marriage, that I needed to fix some things, fine. After the first meeting, the counselor had no doubt that my W also had issues that needed to be addressed. <P>There were other suggestions that she made and I accepted. All the while, she is sleeping with him. She is planning with him. Throwing "truth" out the window. One of her major concerns that she brought up with the counselor was that I do not trust her enough. This is what I have for trusting her.<P>I want to believe you all, that you can step back, take a deep breath and try again, but I can't see it. As she has said in the past "...you are just one of many people that I can fall in love with and I am one of many that you could fall in love with. This is not a big loss...you can be replaced."<P>AC2<P>

Owwweeeee!! That "you can be replaced" thing brought back a bad memory...I heard that too. That was while my H was shacked up in a hotel with the OW. However, that was almost two years ago. They were only together physically for 6 weeks (barf) but the affair continued for another two and a half months. I was lied to, manipulated and basically pooped on during that time. Somehow with the help of this board I managed to Plan A as best I could. I stumbled a lot but the end result is that my H and I are together now and things have never been better. <P>When people say don't make any life changing decisions right now, please listen to them. Your emotional state is too raw to make a rational choice. It's normal to want to just walk away but come six months down the road are you going to look back and say I wish I had tried harder? Maybe you won't but at least give yourself the satisfaction of knowing you did everything you could think of to save your marriage. Like Dr. Phil says, you have to earn your way out.<P>I know how bad you are hurting...it's awful to know we are expendible. Or at least the people we love most think that. I don't think we are replaceable and my husband doesn't think that anymore either <P>Hang in there. I'll be praying for you. Jodi<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anncicero2:<BR><B><BR>I want to believe you all, that you can step back, take a deep breath and try again, but I can't see it. As she has said in the past "...you are just one of many people that I can fall in love with and I am one of many that you could fall in love with. This is not a big loss...you can be replaced."<P>AC2<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Perhaps I should listen to all of you. You were all right on the money with spotting the affair during the summer. You are all probably right about stepping back. <P>I am a "Hell hath no fury" kind of person when I've been shamelessly hurt and I have already unleashed many salvos at them both. To turn back now would be to ask her to stay and try again to work things out. <P>This is highly unlikely considering:<P>1. The person she is and the *small* fact that she doesn't believe what she has done warrents my reaction.<P>2. Via cell phone, she is presently in close contact with him and he is "advising" her on how to "deal" with me. <P>3. She has revealed that she made up her mind some time ago, that we have no future and she sees no reason in working on saving the marriage.<P>4. Why should I beg this "person" to stay with me? A person that callously, looked his wife in the eye, took her children to movies, shopping, etc. while sleeping with her husband/their father.<P>I can't see myself running to keep her in a marriage she regards as nothing more than dung and myself wanting to stay married to someone who is capable of such cold-hearted acts.<P>AC2 <p>[This message has been edited by anncicero2 (edited August 26, 2000).]

AC2,<P>NOTHING in rebuilding a marriage where an affair occurs begins until the affair is out in the open. So for you to say, “but there is no hope for my marriage“ is very predictable, but very incorrect at this point. You’ve hit your thumb with a hammer & it is the worst pain you have ever felt, so to speak, but it isn’t as bad as it seems.<P>Wait, take a few deep breaths and wait some more. Read everything you can on this website. But do not make any snap decisions.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

I am so sorry for the situation you are in right now - suffering the hurts you do not deserve.<P>I will reserve my advice on your WS because I am still reeling from my H's A. But I hope to give you some perspectives on the other aspects of your life:<P>WOW, Doctoral student! Hey, isn't that what you always wanted to be and your goal in life is to become an expert in a field of classical music in three or so years'time? Is that a dream from childhood days or were you inspired by the music or are you naturally driven to reach your potential? You know the answer and reason for such disciplined, passionate and diligent pursuit of that doctorate. <P>Oh, how I wish I were in your position - not the WS because I have that, too. But to have something else that has been my heart's desire for so long and living the reality of a doctoral student. Not a day pass by without me thinking how I wish I was doing my PhD. It is like a dream beyond my clasp because I now have a baby and I need to move if I were to start on the program.<P>I am not saying you are in an enviable position, but like my SIL said 'stupid people also have As, but at least you have the cutest most adorable and happy baby anyone can wish for and baby has a headstart because the father is very intelligent. And after his A, you still have a nice house, and not a wife-beating spouse like my poor girlfriend.'<P>While you wait and not make any life changing decisions at this most vulnerable stage, direct your focus on your doctoral program. You do not want to destroy that as well. I direct my focus on my baby. Of course, I come here to post and vent or I will surely go mad, and I have a wonderful support group in my family and the church and a counsellor/pastor.<P>And about the career and the small circle, I think you have to worry about that if you suspect that your doctoral supervisor is 'contaminated'. Or you can ask for two supervisors - one major and one minor - so that you feel more comfortable about the treatment. The world is so global and you will be able to find jobs in many symphony groups around the world as well as lecturing posts if you are willing to travel, especially out of the country. Talent in the classical music field is rare, as you know from the very small niche of people, and musicians must be predisposed to travel often.<P>You have a bright future and a god-given talent/s - don't waste it/them just because of some lousy A, and alright, people. Okay?!

That's ok, get it out here. All the anger and hurt you can drum up inside. That's what we're here for. But.....(don't you HATE hearing from me) don't make a decision. It's not the time.<P>Let's address a couple of things...<P>1. The alien she seems to be NOW or the woman you fell in love with and married? They are two different people, Honey, and this one has been built and supported by this mess. Most likely, the woman you fell in love with is still there and suffering as well with what is going on....mine was! Oh, and her flippance about what's happened? Completely normal. Robert called his "my little girlfriend thing" and it wasn't a big deal, wasn't the reason he was leaving, etc, etc.<P>2. Continued contact....not a good thing. I'll give you that. Hey, Robert left and MOVED IN with PT. How's that for continued contact. In the fog, it's to be expected. Not pleasant, but expected, since she really DOESN'T believe you have a future. For now.<P>3. "We never should have married, it was a mistake from the beginning, I haven't been happy for years, we don't have a chance, she makes me feel like I've never felt, I finally know what real love is...." I could go on. Back to the betrayer handbook.<P>4. You shouldn't beg. Don't do anything for now. Pull yourself together and begin the work on you. I am proud of you for changing the habits that she mentioned, but that's not the half of it..for you! Honey, she doesn't even know in her own mind what drove her here, she certainly can't tell you.<P>You are hurt and angry, justifiably so. This "person" is not the woman you loved and, at the moment, is out of control. To tell you the honest truth, I've come to realize that we are ALL capable of horrendous things that we never imagined under the right circumstances. Hate the behavior, not the person. And this behavior is hurting her as well. Robert's words "I've become all the men I've ever hated...." Her display of not caring, not understanding is a front, a necessary one to keep her sanity (or what's left of it).<P>Back to my originial recommendation......step back and take care of yourself and don't make any decisions. <P>Listen to us....we've been there! I remember thinking when Deb posted to me on my very first post to calm down, take care, I would feel differently and think differently later that she had NO idea what I was feeling, she had never loved and trusted as much, never been so betrayed, never felt such pain.<P>I was wrong. She had. And so had the others who stood by me then on this board. They knew. They ALL knew. We know. We hurt for you as well. But....please listen. Talk to us, vent here, get it out. It will take a while before you can think rationally again, no matter how rational and calm you may feel sometimes right now. Trust us. Now's not the time.<P>Love and prayers,<P>Lori

I don't know how to thank you all. I have slepted on it and feel a little better today. My W also. We spoke this morning and we will try again or at least not throw everything away. I am amazed at how much love for her fills my heart, even after this. <P>cjack, you were right about the name calling, unfortunantly, I let off a bombardment that will have far reaching consequences for all involved. Our families know and our colleages are probably picking up transcripts of what has happened. OM's wife will surely find out, and probably his children. <P>Thank you all for your prayers. I will keep you in mine.<P>AC2

anncicero2,<P>Sorry to hear that the group here was right, but I think you knew we were or you won't have been her.<P>Just some general comments as you have already been given good advice.<P>You W's comment about you being replacable. Well, what she doesn't know is how rapidly she will be replaced, by OM. I suspect that for him this is just a power trip. Young nubile graduate student, married, what a wonderful challenge to his power and charm. Once he has her and marriage broken up, I suspect he will dump her. <P>Most reputable Universities and schools have rules and recently strong rules about professors having affairs with students, precisely because of this power issue. If your University professes to be reputable, then you do have recourse with regard to this man.<P>anncicero2, talent often wins out. Remember this. Your W may be doing this to advance her career because she knows she isn't as good, and while the Prof. has influence, the critics don't usually pay much attention to them. Perfect your god given talent, anncicero2. Don't let the smallness of these two bring that down. It is time to grow as a human being and grow as a musician. Do so.<P>If you grow enough you just might be surprised, where this will all end. But one thing won't be a surprise, you will be happy with yourself, you will have given your best effort to the marriage, and to your profession.<P>So anncicero2, focus on your music, be kind to your W, and inquire about whether or not your University is a reputable one. Believe me you are less at risk here, than the Prof. or your W. Your W will lose for sure, guarenteed and your Prof. will take a hit as well. That leaves just you. And you can determine if they can hurt you. If you let them, they will. If you rise above it they cannot. <P>So act with honor (try to rebuild marriage), and act with determination (develop your talent to the highest level you can). You don't know what God has in store for you, but he has graced you with a wonderful talent, enjoy it and develop it.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by anncicero2:<BR><B>We spoke this morning and we will try again or at least not throw everything away.</B><P>That is good news. There are certain steps you must take before any meaningful reconciliation can go forward. First is a breakoff of contact with this guy. I'm guessing she is not ready to do that. So, try not to get your hopes too high until that takes place. She needs to break off contact, go through a grieving and withdrawal process that will last at least several months, and only THEN will she be ready to turn her attention back to your relationship.<P>You mention a "bombardment". Perhaps you sent some of their emails around? It is an oft-debated situation here that is discussed...informing the OP's spouse. I'm sure this guy is extremely interested in avoiding scandal?<BR>

Well, I spoke too soon. She is not ready to work on our marriage but wants time to think and decided did we really have a future together. She says that they have ended the relationship. I don't know if they are still in contact with each other.<P>"You mention a "bombardment". Perhaps you sent some of their emails around? It is an oft-debated situation here that is discussed...informing the OP's spouse. I'm sure this guy is extremely interested in avoiding scandal?"<P>It is my guess that he would want to avoid scandal. He is a professor at one of the top three schools of music in the nation. The reality of the situation is he is not in much trouble other than with his family and maybe rumor among his colleagues. The affair took place at an institution away from the university he teaches at and my W is a former student of his, not currently studying at that university. He could be in it a little deep with the music fesitval where the A took place. I don't think that will happen.<P>As for informing his family, what's everyones opinion on that? Am I doing his wife and children any favors by not telling her? Shouldn't he also have to suffer consequences for his actions like the torment my W is going through with her friends, family and colleagues?<P>AC2<BR><p>[This message has been edited by anncicero2 (edited August 28, 2000).]

A2, while I'm glad she's told you their relationship is "over," I wouldn't believe it for one second. That sounds harsh, but think about it: up until a few hours ago, your marriage was "over." The OM was the greatest thing in the world, and you were disposable. Feelings do not change that fast. People do not change that fast. <P> From your earlier post, you said that they were reading your posts here, then using that to come up with a plan of what to do about you. While I'd like to be positive here, this may be another level of the deception. If she's really over this guy, there should be NO CONTACT. I'd suggest a little mistrust at this point. If she's reasonable, she should expect that from you for some time to come. The burden of proof falls on her at this point. <P>As far as telling his family, is that really helpful? No, its just hurtful and an act of vengeance. Its not your job to keep this guy on the straight and narrow, nor is it your responsibility to punish him for his wrongdoings. Your job right now, the only one you have, is to save your marriage.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by anncicero2:<BR><B>She says that they have ended the relationship. I don't know if they are still in contact with each other.</B><P>Well, I'm a little foggy on exactly what she has told you about her feelings for the future, but if she wants to reconcile, you should be requiring that she break off ALL contact with the professor. That is the only way for the healing process to begin. Each contact, each email, sets the process back.<P><B>The affair took place at an institution away from the university he teaches at and my W is a former student of his, not currently studying at that university. He could be in it a little deep with the music fesitval where the A took place.</B><P>I take it your W has told you the physical affair was a one timer? Well, the truth of that is neither here nor there. The focus you need to have is on getting your W to commit to working on your marriage and breaking off all contact with the OM, 100%, no talking, emailing, or anything else.<P>As far as telling the OM's W.....that is Pandora's Box. What if she tosses him out? Now the OM is a free man with an apartment and a grudge against you, free to woo your W. Conversely, if he keeps contacting her, AND you know he is lying to his W and afraid for her to find out about the A, then telling him that any firther contact will result in you informing his W may be a strategy. But as I said elsewhere, the bullet of disclosure is one that is better fondled than fired.<P>It seems that your W's commitment to the marriage is very tentative right now, and that is not likely to change for awhile, unfortunately. She needs to get over this guy, and only time will heal that. <P>This is sort of a different case here. I have a smidge of sympathy for your W, becasue she was seduced by a man in the position of teracher or mentor, with a lot of psychological power over her. He really should be ashamed.<P>Hang in there, Plan A, and read up on the articles here. You have a tough road ahead, but if you can stick to Plan A and keep her away from this guy, you can recover your marriage. <P>Good Luck,<P>Mike <P><BR>