EB,<P>I must disagree. See the following posts:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009174.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/009174.html</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000047.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000047.html</A> <P>If you'd like to chat by email, let me know.<P>lizzie/pogp/alias

Gee whiz catplay, you did it again!<P>Re: I am not blaming you --then-- with your attitude so cold and hard<P>I am not cold and hard. Why do you think I am?<P>Re: I fully believe that no one has the right to sign on here after reading all of this very personal information and judging those of us who are so vunerable and yet so willingly shared their "story" in hopes of healing from their pain and moving forward<BR>knowing they have done all they can do...<P>I am vulnerable just like you. And what have I said that makes you think I am using personal information and hurting people with it?<P>I don't get it.<P>*Still at work, still reading, still thinking about all of this. Thanks for the replies. <p>[This message has been edited by energizer_bunny (edited August 29, 2000).]

Dear EB,<P>As eveyone has said, your pain is intense and palpable. We are all here because we are hurting so badly that we cannot STAND it anymore. While you are totally correct that Harley's methods do not work for everyone, even those who dedicate their lives to it, please realize a few things first.<P>First of all, people whose marriages didn't work out keep coming here to post because this is where their support system is - for some of us here it is our ONLY support system. I'm glad you took the step to air your true feelings, but I think you got some of the reactions you did because of the strong bonds with the method and between the posters here. It's the only hope some of our big family has. We all draw something positve from at least trying or seeing others try, even if the desired results aren't coming out just perfectly. <P>Secondly, you see what you look for. Look harder, Bunny. There are success stories all around of varying measure. Like Bernzini said, it depends on what you consider success. I think any positive ground gained can at least count towards a success, don't you?<P>Mine is a success story (even to your standards I'm sure ), but to read some of my rants you might not know it! My H and I (well, really it was me mostly) have had it out on this board! When I get into my negative modes, it seems like NOTHING is right. Poeple come here, like me, when they are having a rotten day all the time. And some of us here are still success stories in the making.<P>I have, in contrast posted numerous positive words regarding my marriage and my love for my H, etc. I'd post more, but I come here and see all the sad 'faces' of my friends and I end up saving the best of what I have to say to those, like you, who seem to be losing all hope. It's not that I push this or any 'method' but my point is to simply offer hope that yes, there is hope.<P>So, Bunny, maybe this gameplan isn't working out for you. Personally, my H and I have simply used it as a guideline for our own behavior and to help us figure things and each other's actions out a little better. Truthfully, we didn't adhere to every last little word written in the books. (Although some people truly NEED to, just to get thru it all.) Perhaps if you look at the methods as more of an outline for the course of action thru this affair and take from it what you know or think will help, that would benefit you more. For example, if making all the sacrifices in say, Plan A seem to you like you are giving up way too much of yourself, then do what your heart of hearts is telling you. Only you, not anyone here can make the determination that your marriage is worth that kind of effort or not (and some just aren't!) <P>In the end, no matter how things turn up, you will still have yourself to face - and you will want to know you did things in the best possible way YOU could. And you can feel this way regardless of what your H has or hasn't done on his own behalf for the sake of the marriage. <P> Finally, but most impotantly, you have to remember that everyone's situations are unique - even tho they bear commonalities and what has worked for one hasn't necessarily worked for all. But the steps found here have helped nearly every single one of us in some way. It's not designed or intended to be a 'miracle cure' type of scheme. Success, with ANY complex goal you aspire to will be attained with perseverence and dedication. There are no easy ways or guarantees for this one, EB.<P>You are nearing the end of your rope. I hope in my heart that you keep trying until something good starts happening or until you can't anymore. Either way, we will be here to support you, and will do so gladly.<P>Khyra <P>PS If there is more you'd like to talk about and don't feel comfortable here, please feel free to e-mail me - traumangel@yahoo.com<P>PSPS Sorry for any typos I missed, it's hard to type with a baby sleepin on your chest <BR>. <p>[This message has been edited by Khyra (edited August 29, 2000).]

Sheryl!!!!!!!<P>Good to see you back girlfriend! You sound healthy. Genuinely. <P>EB, you see, in my eyes, Sheryl's is a story of success even tho the marriage failed. She has been able to proceed with moving on with her life, and I'll bet she's a lot happier (and saner) most of the time now. She did everything she could and still come out alive in the end. <P>Sheryl, why would anyone flame you for dating??? You aren't doing anything wrong, at least not in my eyes! I'm proud of and for you and I'm glad you are living your life, you really needed to. Congrats, and best of luck... and thanks again for all the help you have given me.<P>Khyra

Boy I have my work cut out for me! <P>heartache, <P>why did you delete your post?<P>fairydust,<P>Good luck as you work to rebuild your marriage. I'm glad you still lurk. Thank you.<BR> <BR>suse, <P>You seem very nice and genuine. I hope your marriage continues to flourish. Just one question. When you say that you're "enjoying the fruits of all our hard work. We're having more fun, laughing more, teasing more, talking more, more , than we ever have." Do you mean that you are honestly truly successful and that your affairs will never get in the way again? Not that they will ever be forgotten, I think everyone here agrees about that. But, how did you let the pain go?<P>Nice ramble, by the way.<P>K,<P>Re: Why is "being happy in a sexless marriage" sad to you? <P>Because sex is a wonderful part of marriage and your wife is able to have it but won't. Is that not sad?<P>Re: So, I'm much happier in my marriage now than I was three years ago. Proof that this stuff works. Proof that it is "successful". And as others have intonated, proof that it can work (perhaps not to perfection) if only one spouse is practicing the philosophy.<P>Well, alright K. If you are HONESTLY HAPPY, then who am I to quibble.<P>wasstubborn,<P>Re: The words "success" "failure" "betrayer" and "betrayed" have always bothered me.<BR>1. They are labels.<BR>2. They describe black and white. Absolutes. At least in my mind.<P>I only use the words because this site promotes them. I agree with what you're saying, by the way.<P>Re: I will probably never call me or my marriage a success. It is a work in progress. Plan A is a process. A work in progress. <P>I hope you can one day.<P>Re: Our marriage is far from perfect. I am far from perfect. I am not a success. I am a woman who has learned a huge amount from this forum and Dr. Harley's teachings. A woman who loves her H enough to work through this with him.<P>I really respect this about you. <P>I am sorry for your pain.<P>periwinkle,<P>Re: Plan A is my new way of life. <P>That's what I gather from what I'm reading. I guess it's about making YOURSELF better, not the marriage.<P>Re: It sounds as though your pain has turned into bitterness. There's a book called "Betrayal's Baby" by Bunny Wilson (I think that is the author's name) that is helpful in getting past bitterness.<P>Thank you for the referral.<P>God bless you too!<P>Carolina Belle, <P>Re: Nothing excuses what my H has done. NOTHING! But let's face it, I've broken my vows too. Either Lostva or Lor made a good point in saying that there during the wedding, there was no more emphasis made on the vow that he broke than there was on the ones that I broke.<P>I appreciate what you're saying, but I will not equate an affair with doing a LB of some kind. An affair stands on it's own as cruelty. Remember, I've been on both sides, and I know.<P>Re:Also, EB, keep in mind that for the most part, you are seeing the absolute worst parts of marriages in this room. <P>Yes, this makes sense.<P>Re: Even Dr. Harley himself says that adultery is the most selfish, thoughtless act a person can commit. <P>I agree with Harley on this.<P>F A,<P>I owe you a world of thanks. You made my day today! Thank you. Thank you for your kindhearted thoughtful and defensive (!!) replies.<P>Of course, I agree with all that you said. I truly felt attacked, esp. with one poster, and another has now erased her post, maybe because she was afraid of the same. Now THAT'S sad!<P>Re: So before you give up on your marriage, give these principles your best shot, if it is simply too much for you to handle, or you feel that there is simply too much to overcome, then part with your spouse and move forward with your life. <P>I am thinking about it all, quite honestly.<P>You obviously thought a lot about what people were writing. You took a lot of care in your responses. <P>You made me cry at work. That's not such a good thing <grin> but I appreciated it.<P>Monen,<P>I am very sorry for our shared pain.<P>Re: Some people can be hurt very badly, but have something in their emotional make-up which allows them to recover and bounce back within a reasonable amount of time. Others can have very small things happen to them, and they will feel the pain of it and have a hard time letting go for AGES. <P>Oh gosh, this is so TRUE!!! Very good insight.<P>Re: your remark to K "Not to sound crass, but your wife is a lucky woman. If I am not in the mood to have sex with my H, I am automatically unattracted to him, don't love him, think he is inadequate, and MUST be thinking about another man. Let's just say this ruins MORE than 10% of our marriage."<P>Yes, I agree with this too!<P>ecurb1,<P>I wish you must happiness and that you can indeed put your marriage back together. <P>You sound like a very good man.<P>Catplay,<P>I think I answered you fully as the day went on. I was very hurt by what you were saying. I am not coldhearted, just a regular person who took a chance and posted what I felt. I'm sorry it offended you.<P>new_beginning,<P>K later says something, and so does Khyra about your being a success even though your marriage is over. I don't really agree, but you do sound happy. I want that too. Best of luck to you and the new man. I mean that truly.<P>Carolina Belle,<P>Re: NOTHING EXCUSES AN AFFAIR!!! It is purely selfish, and I don't care WHAT a spouse does. Even if it's a revenge affair, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR IT.<P>YES, YES, YES.<P>Re: For you, EB, leaving is probably the best thing that you can do. But PLEASE get some counseling for yourself. I do agree w/Catplay in the sense that your behavior did play a role in putting your marriage in the condition it's in. Don't get me wrong - like I said, that does not justify him having an affair. <P>I plan to get counseling. I agree with catplay on that ONE point too. I helped to ruin the marriage.<BR>Lor (Lor),<P>I know you believe and live this.<P>You didn't attack me at all.<P>I wish you a happy marriage this time around, with the same husband you have loved all along. <P>Re: But I know without a shadow of a doubt that my H's Plan A at that point brought me back to the point of reconciliation<P>That's wonderful, and I agree he was successful in his plan a efforts.<P>crazy or what?,<P>That's awful about your h thinking that you were just doing it to be better than OW#1. <P>I'm sorry for your pain, and I will continue thinking about what I need to do.<P>WorthItForEternity,<P>Re: You have to be honest with yourself. Do you really want a healthy, happy marriage with this person, or do you just want revenge? Not making any personal judgements, but I think that a lot of us BS fall into that trap.<P>Well, I didn't want revenge. I wanted to feel loved. I know what I did was wrong.<P>Re: Does it mean you can't do whatever you want whenever you want? Uh-huh. Yes, you will not be able to LB, vent angry feelings, etc. Hello, that's life. <P>I know that's life. I never said I wanted to vent ugly feelings did I? You all don't know<BR>what I did to save my marriage, do you? Just because I vent and write here, trying to say how I feel, doesn't mean I ripped into my h day in and day out. Or frankly, even ever. I kept my mouth shut for the most part. I'm told that we did "protective lying". It doesn't work very well, but we didn't LB or fight really.<P>Re: You say you are not willing to protect your spouse from these angry outbursts. <P>When did I say this?<P>Re: Personally, I have to say my H & I are a success story. He cheated (PA only), yet was still very much in love with me. <P>How can someone be "very much in love" and cheat? Was it a one night stand? Sorry if that sounds crass. Again, I'm trying to learn.<P>Still Praying,<P>Thank you for clarifying what you said earlier.<P>Re: Also, it's unfortunate to hear that your's is over. You need to do what makes you happy in life. You obviously know better than us what kind of person he is, and whether or not he would ever be trustworthy again.<P>Thank you.<P>Re: As for flaming you, I guess I was a little taken back by the blanket statements that I perceived you making. I was trying to get you to ask yourself some questions, and of course I had no idea of who you are or what you've been through or tried.<P>That's true.<P>Re: Now, so that I can get flamed. I firmly believe that other than parent/child parent/stepchild sexual abuse, and possibly a marriage that was started because of a pregnency instead of love, every marriage can be saved.<P>I don't believe that AT ALL.<P>Nellie1,<P>I've read your posts and am sorry for your pain. I hope that things are going better for you. But it sounds like no, and I am sorry to hear that.<P>You are a good mom to those kids and that's what really matters now.<P>alias,<P>I looked up those posts you mentioned and while they're nice, it really shows a handful of "success stories" out of thousands of people. <P>If you'd like to chat by email, let me know.<P>Thank you for the offer of eamil. I will think about that.<P>Khyra,<P>Thank you for saying you see my pain. Not everyone else does. They see me as cold when in fact I am just hurting like everyone else here.<P>I agree about this being a support system - for SOME, not all.<P>Re: Mine is a success story (even to your standards I'm sure ), but to read some of my rants you might not know it! <P>I know what you mean. Yes, SO FAR you are a success story and I hope it continues that way.<P>Thank you too for the email address. I'll let you know if I need to talk.<P>EB

energizer_bunny,<P>I must say that I applaud you. You have had your work cut out for you, and I am amazed that you are able to answer so many posts.<P>I hope that you also realize that nothing that I said was meant to be a personal attack on you, but obviously differing opinions help everyone to see things from a different perspective.<P>Take care.<p>[This message has been edited by Still Praying (edited August 29, 2000).]

EB:<BR> I did not intentionally attack you nor intend to appear thoughtless about your problems.<P>I read through your original post and picked up some very negative vibes and I guess I read into them wrong. Guilty!<P>I didn't want you to go off on a tangent, personally attacking those who have chosen a difficult road for whatever reason they have to do so... Someone you mentioned has a sexless marriage... this is of their own choosing and many people in love or not have a sexless marriage for various reasons. Sex does not make a happy marriage, it makes a happy marriage better.<P>This is were I get off. I wish you the best, whichever route you take in your life.<P>Cathy

Hi Khyra!! <P>Thanks for the super-duper warm thoughts!!<P>Yeah, can't seem to completely stay away... and I'm sooooooooooooooooo embarrassed!! Oh well... I'm a dork. <P>Big HUGS to you Khyra!! <P>Okay EB, no I don't see myself as a success story by any stretch of the imagination, but I am S-L-O-W-L-Y healing, and in my book I am becoming successful. I do still care about my stbx, and that's another good thing I think. I'm gonna be okay, and that's all ANY of us wants, right?<P>Take care, Sheryl<BR>

EB, I just wanted to come back and read the responses...you need not reply!<P>I must be in some other "place" finally, because I don't find myself getting annoyed at any of the opinions. I guess that's good.<P>You know, EB, I'm kindof at a similar place...with regards to my marraige which seems to be rapidly falling apart. My H has never had an another affair though. In fact, up until last NOve. He was a very caring, loving, devoted h and dad. <P>I'm still actually wondering what exactly happened to him..... But I'm still taking care of me! I guess that's my Plan A.<P>I particularly found Suse's response to hit close to home.<P>To me, what it comes down to, is that an affair is just like any other "thing" (drugs, alcohol, work, spending, etc) that we use to make ourselves feel better. Therefore, along with the needs, many of the WS's need to figure out what that thing is that's missing inside of them.....first and foremost!!! I see this as my H's difficulty. And I do not think it is the OP that is the problem...though I think he thinks I do....she is just the complicating factor. It is how he "feels about himself" with her...... But I can't tell him that.<P>Therefore, all that said it takes two, hit the nail on the head. <P>I'm sorry for all of us that have not had the other half even meet us on the bottom step.....<P>But I still find a lot of solice here, for what has pretty much been h*** on earth. NO one could ever understand what "this" is all about unless you are living it!!! as we are.<P>And I have come a long way in my thinking...and gotton myself to a better place than I was. I have definatly come to a better realization about myself and my behaviors, and hey, even if it makes me a better parent..... that's enough!!!<P>I hope there are more responses...I've enjoyed this post.

Still Praying,<P>Hanging out for a few more minutes after my mammoth posting. Thanks for the applause.<P>Re: I hope that you also realize that nothing that I said was meant to be a personal attack on you, but obviously differing opinions help everyone to see things from a different perspective.<P>I do realize that now, but it did sting. But I guess that's the nature of the beast around here were pain abounds.<P>No problem and I do understand and appreciate different perspectives.<P>Catplay,<P>Re: I did not intentionally attack you nor intend to appear thoughtless about your problems.<P>Okay, well thank you.<P>Re: Someone you mentioned has a sexless marriage... this is of their own choosing and many people in love or not have a sexless marriage for various reasons. Sex does not make a happy marriage, it makes a happy marriage better.<P>There are, by the way several on this board in the same boat as K, who posted on this thread, and in ALL cases, IT IS NOT OF THEIR OWN CHOOSING. They want it. I do agree that it makes a happy marriage better, but in the case of healthy people who are using sex as a weapon or maybe say they cannot psychologically do it with their spouse - that is TERRIBLE, and I don't agree at all that it is a personal choice.<P>Don't feel like you have to leave because we don't agree. It really is okay to agree to disagree.<BR> <BR>new_beginning,<P>That's nice that you get along with your stbx, but it doesn't repair your marriage, which you wanted. I do wish you success in your life and with the new person too.<P>Re: I'm gonna be okay, and that's all ANY of us wants, right?<P>Yes, that's all any of us wants. I agree.<P>EB<P> <BR>

Wow...you must indeed be the true energizer bunny to keep up with all these replies...good job.<P>I just wanted to make a few quick points.<P>First of all I think K has been wonderfully honest to share the intimate details of his healing. A lot of folks here are in the same predicament and I'm sure it helps them to see that they are not alone. I guess I think of it this way...if you had the most wonderful marriage in the world, the most perfect husband and he got hit by a car and could not perform sexually, would you divorce him? It's called unconditional love.<P>I think it's easiest to feel it for our children. I have teenagers and while I have been pretty lucky so far with them, they could really really mess up at any time. Will I still love them. Oh yeah, you'd better believe it. With all of my heart. I might not agree with what they did, but it would certainly not change my feelings for them.<P>I hope you don't take this comment as a negative one. Believe me, I do know the pain...we all do here. It's the worst thing I've ever gone through. I don't know what success really means, but adopting the MB principles into my life has made me feel a bit more successful. It gives me a plan, something I can do...and it has helped me feel more in control during a time in my life that is not in control.<P>I guess the analagies of the wounds and the healing process is pretty right on. I'm sure there will always be a scar...but it will be there whether H and I are together or not. Yep, he put it there, but I placed a few unsightly nicks into his psyche too over the last 20 or so years. <P>So, please give some thought to how to help yourself and heal. Your H won't do it for you. I've learned that it's time to grow up and if I have to stand on my own two feet from now on...I can do it. If H is going to want to heal this marriage with me...better yet.<P>Great post eb.<P>allison

Hi EB!<BR> I LOVE sarcasm! And you are a grand master of it. Please keep posting!<P> And you're so right about K! Poor fool thinks he's a "success". You sure straightened him out! <P>Hope to see ya soon!<BR>Lou<P>

that was pretty rude and completley unnecessary. <P>please...moderator...remove the post from middleman.<P>allison

Hi <B>energizer_bunny</B>,<P>Just a word to some friends...<P><B>K</B>.. thanks for coming back...<BR>...now <B>I</B> can go into semi-retirement <P><B>~Sheryl</B>... I didn't catch you...<BR>...and I never judge you...<BR>...my love goes out to you and all in pain...<BR>...honest... <P>--------------------------------------------<P>OK...<P>If you <B>can't/won't</B> Plan A for life...<BR>then... that means...<BR>You <B>can't/won't</B> keep to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3902_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Protection:</A>[/b] Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness...<B>for life</B> and...<BR>You <B>can't/won't</B> keep to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3901_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Care:</A>[/b] Meet your spouse's most important <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>...<B>for life</B>.<P>If I were to get married (again as it were) and I didn't believe that I would <B>strive</B>(even if I falter) for these...<BR>...<B>WHY WOULD/SHOULD I GET MARRIED</B>?!?!<BR>...maybe money, maybe sex, maybe affection, maybe something else... (I hope not)<P>Aren't the ideas of <B>care</B> and <B>protection</B>... essential elements of a marriage?!<P>If you don't commit to these "rules"...<BR>...please tell why you would/should/could marry!<P>If...<BR>You <B>can't/won't</B> keep to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3904_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Time:</A>[/b] Take time to give your spouse undivided attention....<B>for life</B> and...<BR>You <B>can't/won't</B> keep to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3903_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Rule of Honesty:</A>[/b] Be totally open and honest with your spouse....<B>for life</B>....<P>Aren't the ideas of <B>time</B> and <B>honesty</B>... essential elements of a marriage?!<P>If you don't commit to these "rules"...<BR>...please tell why you would/should/could marry!<P>Does not the idea of marital negotiation <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A>... cut to the core of what needs to be learned to "care" for, to "protect", to "be honest", to "give time"... for the one you marry?!<P>To claim that "these" don't work...<BR>...is to claim that these elements (taken together or individually) are not relevant to marriage.<P>If it is a specific issue of success as defined as...<P>1. the opposite of "failure"... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Failure is this: a marriage that is filled with pain, or held together by a sense of loyalty ONLY. Staying together for the children is failure, just as staying together for money, or convenience is. I don't believe that is a marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>..<BR>...and/or...<BR>2.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The real success seems to come from detaching ourselves from the beliefs that we cling onto regarding this life and the people in it and having faith. Faith in ourselves, faith in the people around us, and faith in God's word.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As far as the <B>failure</B> goes...<BR>...pain ...lack of loyality ... children/money ...convenience<BR><B>are just excuses to avoid applying the rules</B>...<BR>Not the failures themselves.<P>As far as the (real) success...<BR>...having faith...<BR>...yep... ..you said it...<BR>...having faith...<BR>..."...in God's word..."...<BR>(The two shall become one...<BR>...check out a recent post of mine...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000288.html" TARGET=_blank>here</A>)<P>If the theme of <I>loving</I> and <I>forgiving</I> don't run through "faith"...<BR>...where can there be a (real) "success"?<P>Is success the restoration of <B>just</B> the marriage?...<BR>...if it is...<BR>...faith is incomplete.<P>If success is the restoration of faith?...<BR>...you have found the narrow path...<BR>...we all seek it...<BR>...we all stumble and fall on it...<BR>...we all need to repent and forgive...<BR>...we all need it...<BR>...for honest (real) success.<P> <P>Jim

Hi tootrusting, allison, middleman and NSR,<P>Okay, FIRST AND FOREMOST, I am not flaming K or trying to make fun of him or his situation. Remember, he is not the only one to have this situation in his marriage. Look around, there are others. While I don't think he's a success and have gone on record with that, I also don't think he himself or his wife is a fool. So, then,<P>Middleman, <P>Thank you for the compliment, but it isn't quite warranted in the way that you wrote.<P>tootrusting, <P>Thank you for continuing to come back and think on this. I know you say I didn't have to reply, but I'm here, so what the heck, right?<P>allison, <P>Thank you for dropping by too. <P>Re: First of all I think K has been wonderfully honest to share the intimate details of his healing. A lot of folks here are in the same predicament and I'm sure it helps them to see that they are not alone. I guess I think of it this way...if you had the most wonderful marriage in the world, the most perfect husband and he got hit by a car and could not perform sexually, would you divorce him? It's called unconditional love.<P>How to say this? K, his wife, and others in this situation CAN PERFORM SEXUALLY, and that is precisly why I get so upset about it. It's a whole other matter if there is injury, etc. How did this turn into a thread about K and his lack of sex? This obviously touches a chord with many.<P>I will work on healing me, and thank you for the response.<P>NSR, <P>You are a spiritual and caring man, that is obvious. Thank you for the care you took in your reply.<P>I don't believe the MB concepts save most marriages. That doesn't mean there isn't good in them, or that there aren't some things about them that heal certain aspects of marriage. For example, the idea of the four rules of protection that you mention. Yes, in ALL relationships, but mostly a marriage relationship, they should be used. Two people in the beginning of a relationship would naturally use them. Take new_beginning, who as K says will use what she learned here in her new relationship. She won't even have to think about it, she'll do it naturally because of the new love. It's when it gets older, and one begins to fade, or become human, or flirt, smile at someone, spend money they shuoldn't, or god forbid cheat. Then you'll really see what the relationship is made of. That's the reality. And frankly, THAT'S what everyone here is dealing with. Reality. I just said the words of my reality, and I think some people are afraid that I might be right. <P>Again, thanks everyone for your replies. I am honestly thinking still about what you've all written and it's given me some food for thought.<BR> <BR>

Okay, I came back to check on this thread, call me obsessed.<P>Hi <B>Jim</B>, and thanks for not noticing me! <P>Now I'm being used as a template for what it means to follow/not follow the 4 Rules. Hmmm... not a good idea EB. I use the rules even with my stbx now, which is why we still get along pretty well, actually. As a matter of fact, I use them with everyone, because it is the 'right thing' to do I guess. Yes, with the new man I use them, and yes, it is so easy since we are in a blossoming love affair (god good, I hate to use that word, but can think of no other! ). But, I will TRY to remember to use them ALWAYS because this man, as you and everyone else here, DESERVES IT as a human being that I care about. Am I making sense?<P>One wonders!! <P>Take care, Sheryl<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited August 30, 2000).]

Hi <B>energizer_bunny</B>,<P>I can think of no better way to <B>try</B> to save a marriage... than by applying the "restoration" of faith.<P>...It is from <B><I>your</I></B> definition of <B>real success</B>... "(it is) in... having faith."<P>If your statement "I don't believe the MB concepts save most marriages"...<BR>...is really meaning to say "I don't believe the (applying) MB concepts will <B>result in the restoration of</B> most marriages"...<P>...<B>I agree</B>...<P>The turning away from a marriage through infidelity (or anything else) is a result of our own free will... to goes directly in the face of "faith"...<BR>...and even more so... it becomes easy to do in a society that glorifies "self" above faith.<P>...since you can do <B>nothing</B> to transplant the human mind... alter thought patterns... and illogic... or eliminate what causes us to "sin"... there is no "plan" that guarantees marital restoration.<P>...to search for such a plan is to look for a "fountain of youth"....<P>...a truly futile search!<P>That's why the MB "plans" are a <B>success</B>...<BR>They seek out, under the guise of self help, ...a tool to recover faith.<P>If the marriage is recovered... great.<P>If not... you have a healthier relationship with God and your fellow man...<P>...that's much better than just a "restored marriage".<P> <P>Jim

One more quick nickel's worth from Liz Smith/POGP/alias:<P>But first, hugs to NB!<P>If the definition of success being used here is 'saving your marriage', then perhaps EB is right.<P>We chose another definition. In counseling we both looked at the affair and agreed that it had, essentially, put the marriage in a blender. The old promises made by idealistic twentysomethings were gone in a whirl of sharp blades...poof. We couldn't save THAT marriage. <P>We also agreed that the old marriage wasn't anything we wanted to bring back. Then, it was up to me, the BS, to decide if I wanted to let this person stay in my life. I let him know that I would consider it, IF he was willing to change, as I was. <P>Initially, we decided to "see if we can work it out for the sake of the kids". I believe that many people stop here in their recovery and wind up bitter for years and years (my parents 'stuck it out' for 38 yrs.!). <P>We didn't want a lifetime where we just survived. My h. pointed out that he had an affair to try to bring some happiness to his life (he also agreed that this failed to do that) and if we stayed unhappy together, it could happen again, or I might stray (emotionally). <P>So, our mutual goal was to see if we could be happy AND married to each other.<P>I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes this goal cannot be reached. New Beginning has demonstrated how you can us MB principles and then decide that it's time to end the marriage.<P>The point is, if you don't give Plan A/B a sincere try, I think you leave yourself open to regret for the rest of your life. If you DO use the principles, the outcome may be the same, but you know that you did everything you could to make it work. You learn how to love people in other relationships. And you can always be proud of yourself for being able to grow and change.<P>I think we will 'succeed', but if we should divorce someday, I will always know that I gave my best to this relationship. I will hold my head high, like many here who do divorce. They are successes, because they tried everything. <P>lizzie

EB - Sorry I'm late to the party. Actually, I saw your note almost immediately after you posted it. I could have been the first to respond, but my response would been a "toned-down" version of what Still Praying had to say and obviously you don't want to hear any of that. I'm glad that this post has brought out the MB "superstars". You have received some golden input here and now it's up to you to put it to use. I do, however want to take issue with some of the things you said.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This stuff doesn't work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Remember that taking an "absolute" position like this automatically falsifies your argument. You have been given solid evidence here that it <B>DOES</B> work, but not in <I>all</I> cases. There are no sure rules or laws concerning human behavior. If there were, psychology would have no problem being considered a "science".<P>You have to take responsibility for yourself, your actions and the results of your actions on others. There are relatively few, if any, "experts", who would not agree that the BS had their own part in contributing to the onset of an affair. You, yourself made contributions to the bad place your marriage is in today. You didn't cause the affair and are not responsible for that, but you are responsible in part for where your marriage ended up. It's up to you to acknowledge that and find ways to not repeat, whether in this marriage or another relationship. It doesn't play out very well that you went and had an EA when you <I>suspected</I> your husband was unfaithful. What if he hadn't been??? You are not the only one who has thought of a "revenge" affair. A lot of us have, it's just that we were strong enough in our convictions of what a marriage should be to NOT do it.<P>I agree with K, you definitely need counselling. You are here, which is a giant first step.<P>You have said many, many times that "plan A is nice", but can you keep it up forever. You had better be able to if you ever want to have any fulfilling relationships. Plan A is not about "bringing the WS home". Fortunately, it can have that result, but it is really about you and how you treat others, and that means "everyone", not just a spouse. Please take to heart what my dear, dear friend Sheryl(new_beginning) said to you: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As a matter of fact, I use them with everyone, because it is the 'right thing' to do I guess.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Which by meaning and definition is a "lifestyle" that is practiced "forever".<P>I am definitely not perfect. I have been Plan Aing for almost a year and a half now. It has been very, very hard and I have had this tendency to LB every two or three weeks. But, I have seen a radical change in myself and others have noticed. No matter what you think, Plan A is the reason my W is still with me. It's also the reason she never moved out or took up with OM in any steady fashion. Our marriage is certainly not a "success" story. Probably never will be and, in fact, might not last much longer. However, I am a much better person because of Plan A. Don't get me wrong, I am not a Harley "zealot". I realized early on that Plan B would never have worked one iota in restoring my marriage if it had become necessary. The thing to remember is that these various "plans" are for <B>you</B>, not your WS.<P>I agree with Allison, this is a <I>great</I> post and I thank you for getting it started. I sure hope that the responses here really make you think and re-evaluate your life. Your marriage may be over, but you can follow the advice you have received here and your next relationship could be everything you ever wished for.<P>Jim, this is definitely one for the "Notable Posts" list.....<P>Take care EB and hugs to you....<P>--DeWayne--<P><p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited August 30, 2000).]

EB:<P>Just a note here---you mention that my wife can "perform". That's really not true. When we've tried to work on sexual intimacy, it basically throws her into a panic attack. As much as I love sex---it's not an ideal situation when your partner is seizing up, sobbing uncontrollably, or paralyzed with fear. You're correct in that there's no physical barrier towards sex---but there is an emotional barrier right now. And unfortunately, that also can spill into "affection", because our past history had affection often leading to sex.<P>This is where I think you have a very "rigid" view of the issues (black and white). Using my allegory about earning potential---this sexual dysfunction would be similar to me losing my job. If I did, would I expect my wife to divorce me?? No. But what if I lost my job and didn't immediately go about finding a new one---would that cause conflict in my marriage?? Certainly. If you were on the receiving end of the conflict---what would you do? Divorce?? Again, not likely, and certainly not as a first choice. Would you "lovebust"? This would be a natural reaction---make demands, use disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts, punish this "wrong" behavior. But typically, that response doesn't work in the effort to "force" the person to the desired action, and it clearly doesn't build love.<P>So, given that divorce and punishment aren't the ways to go---how do you go about "fixing" a problem that might not be your responsibility? By creating an atmosphere in which the change in the other person is possible, and is advantageous for them. That may seem like capitulation to selfish desires---but love is essentially a selfish process. No matter how much stuff is spouted about "agape" love, it doesn't support a long-term marriage. Love is selfish---and even for those people who are "agape" believers, their one wish is TO BE LOVED as they love their spouse (which is selfish, by definition).<P>Once you get around the way our popular culture has idealized love and marriage, and delve into the workings---you can start using these principles as tools. Love is a process. Not magic, not chemistry, not predestined. It's a process---just like baking a cake. The bottom line is if you picked some guy out of a lineup, and you both followed the "four rules" together, you would have a happy marriage until "death do us part".<P>In the case of my wife and I, Steve Harley helped me with my marital behaviors, and in instituting "Plan A and B". And it was successful, in that when the affair ended, my wife had hope for our marriage. Our efforts in following the four rules have built our marriage up considerably---I could list tons of details, but suffice it to say we no longer fight with each other, we're much better with the children, we're much more considerate to each other's feelings, and we are much "happier" or "loving" in our interactions.<P>But we're not head over heels in romantic love yet. And that's becuase we're not following the 4 rules perfectly. Plain and simple. But again, we're making strides towards this---our marriage didn't break down in the course of a month---it was four years of pretty serious deterioration. And it's going to be a process to restore it. The great news is that we're both on board with the effort---so much so that my wife has started counseling to work on her emotional issues with intimacy and sex. These are problems that have solutions---and the efforts that we've made using these principles to restore our marriage to this point have finally given my wife the comfort and security to tackle what is admittedly for her a horrible and painful problem.<P>Again, these are the reasons I think these principles work. They're pretty easy to follow when the marriage isn't torn up---my newlywed brother and his wife received a copy of "The four Gifts of Love" from us. That's the time to learn and practice this stuff. But it can save marriages from the depths of problems. Not every time. But often enough, and certainly better than any other "affair approaches" that I've seen. I've been here nearly longer than anyone else, and I've seen plenty of these examples. <P>FA said something to you that seems very common-sense, but I think is tremendously misleading, and very often wrong<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You know what is best for you...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think often when you deal with this type of emotional trauma, you don't have a clue to what is best for you. Or how to make and execute a plan for "what is best". I think that this is very clear---most marriages don't survive this type of trauma, but often spouses are filled with regret for divorces down the road.<P>When I faced my wife's affair, the one brilliant thing I did was to say "I don't have a clue, and if I manage this on my own, I'm very likely to fail." Among the stuff I found in my first few days of research was the MB site. There was no forum at the time (a blessing, I think). I read this stuff, and although some of it was completely opposite of common opinion, it made sense. And knowing that I would need help, the next brilliant move I made was to start counseling with Steve (back in the old days, when he was "cheap and easy" [to get ahold of]).<P>That's why I always suggest this approach to those who are either stuck, or in a very precarious situation. It's worked for me, and for others---and even for those marriages that haven't been saved, the benefits during separation and divorce are clear.