<P>I have just realized in the last week, with the help of my therapist, that I have a codependent(CD) behavior pattern.<P>I really didn't know the extent of how that interfereds with ALL relationships in your life: parents, siblings, mates, children.<P>I went to a CoDA meeting last nite as recommended by my therapist. Boy am I scared! I cannot tell you what a shock it was to hear these people talk about what they were struggling with that week. The perception of my whole life has been altered. I cannot take it back, I wish I could.<P>The thing that scares me most, was the view-change I had about MB. I thought this was the perfect solution if I could put up with all the pain; but to Not be a CD, I have to step away and let people take resonsibility for themselves and their actions. That is fine, except that my H is still not talking, and I can no longer push him to do so, I cannot dominate the recovery. I still have a lot to learn about CD. And what changes I have to make. <P>It is almost like CD and MB do not mix. Is there anyone out there that can give me some advice on this. I am scared and confused. I feel like this is almost bigger thatn my H's A and the fall out. I need reassurance before I say something I will regret to my H, in the guise of CD recovering.<P>HELP!!!<P>Cathy(catplay?) did you mention this to me somewhere? I couldn't find the thread again! <P><BR>[This message has been edited by burnedspouse (edited September 07, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by burnedspouse (edited September 07, 2000).]

Burnedspouse...<P>Please read the following before diving too much into this "co-dependency" thing...<P>How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages. <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html</A>

Burnedspouse,<P>There is a big difference between co-dependence and inter-dependence..<BR>and the MB principles actually go hand in<BR>hand from what I am finding w/ the learning to not be a CD..as you use Plan A, or Plan B<BR>you are in essence changing your behavior..<BR>and making others accountable for their own actions. You can love someone and not do everything for them, you can love someone<BR>and still be yourself, and not put up with the others actions..It's a matter of learning to set boundries for yourself and telling others what you will and will not tolerate from them. ex. I will not tolerate your having this affair, yes I love you, but you can not have us both. You need to decide which one is more important..the other relationship, or our marriage. They have to make the choice..yes we can show them by doing things that show we love them, and pray that they will chose the marriage..or we can let go and move on with our lives. It's a matter of learning to respect ourself.. <P>Inter-D is when both parties work together for a common goal to have a happy marriage<BR>and they do things for the other because they want to..not because they feel they have to do it..just to be loved..

Okay I read it and I am a little relieved. But i still think I have some issues. But I can also see that some of the responses to "recovering from CD," is a little drastic.<P>The trick will be learning WHEN i need to let go, so they can learn on their own. <P>Temperence, that is the key.<P>"Letting go" is not necessarily plan B, but it is giving h the space to decide without the "Push, talk, push, talk..." I can't fix it alone, and I must stop trying to. It hurts to be unsuccessful at that. HE has to let go of OW and WANT to work on the marrriage, towards a future together. I still think, he wants to leave me, he is trying to make me do something there. It is an undercurrent. But I must not also put words or ideas in his head, he must have his own only.<P>The rest of my response about CD I blabbed under the article heading because I was there. If your interested. I will check both.

Dear Burned,<P>I too have Co-D issues. I could see my H's life so out of control and wanted so badly for him to "get it right", but I know I can't do that for him. Never realizing, thinking I was doing "Good" for him, I was being his MOM. <P>I am very impatient and easily frustrated, therefore, I have this, I'll do it myself, it's easier attitude, than to wait for him to do for himself.<P>I tried to read some of the Co-D books, but I got confused and thought I was supposed to ignore him and be mean to him and that way he would want to change. The books really scared me, they made me feel like I was bad for being Co-D. I also went to 1 Al-Anon meeting and never went back, I was totally lost as to what their mission was about and couldn't relate to any of the stories there.<P>I don't know your situation, but I think alot of us stay-at home moms develop this b/c we are in such a caring/doing position and that becomes our main purpose or function in life and sometimes I think we want so badly to be recognized for what we do 24/7 that we get this do-gooder way. In our society, stay at home moms are almost extinct and also society measures women in a different way now instead of how fresh and white that laundry is hanging out on that clothesline.<P>Back to Co-D...Both H and I have this issue, probably for different reasons and needs. I too have been struggling with finding a way to stop controling his life, but conveying to him at the same time that I love him without appearing mean or distant. I can't quite put it in motion or maybe I don't "get it".<P>My H has classic symptoms of alcoholism and I can't cure this, I guess I have chosen to live with this and will consequently suffer the rest of my life or until he wakes up. I wish I could separate my worth from his, it is a vicious cycle we all live with and is so tormenting.<P>I have called the sheriff's dept. in an effort to get him stopped for DUI and although it's never panned out, I realized that it would be ME (again) controling his destiny. It will happen one day and I will feel much better when it does that he will pay the price and I didn't control it. He has been stopped so many times and like he boasts "I'm the luckiest SOB in the world", well that may be true, but his number will come up one day and I hope someone else's number doesn't becomes his!<P>I know how you feel and I wish I had answers for you... BTW, I went to that Al-Anon meeting about a year before his A started.<P>He at one point told me that he had to drink to be with me and he didn't have to drink to be with her! Now he says that everything they did involved drinking, she drinks alot also and wants to party all the time. My H was physically exhausted, not to mention emotionally, when he came back home.<P>He knows he has a problem with alco. and he tries very hard most of the time to control it, but when he feels dejected or depressed about something he goes on a tangent and goes over his "limit". H is from an alcoholic family...I am not.<P>I hope I have been some help to you, I need help also. I do know I have a problem, it's just a matter of getting someone to set me on the right track and teaching me how to let go of his problems and not let his problems become my problems and to not let his problems create my feelings of worthlessness and do all this in a way that shows him I love him and support him... Where is that someone? I would really like to know how to do this!<P>Sincerely, Cathy<BR>My e-mail is Baboom48cpt@aol.com

burnedspouse - get yourself a REAL marriage counselor - one who practices one of the most effective therapies going (Solution Oriented Brief Therapy) or one who specifically mentions that they are trained/following the MB principles or Divorce Busting principles (Michele Weiner-Davis). Any counselor who is going to go out of his/her way to "diagnose" you as co-dependent is NOT for saving your marriage.<P>Please read as much as you can at these sites:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcebusting.com</A> <A HREF="http://www.smartmarriages.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.smartmarriages.com</A> <A HREF="http://www.rational.org/recovery/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.rational.org/recovery/</A> <P>This last site will go far toward explaining why you, Catplay, are so confused and why you didn't "get" the Al-Anon people... I think it is a huge eye-opener!<P>The only time co-dependency is a BAD thing in marriage is if you allow yourself to be sucked into the downward spiral of the dependent individual. Otherwise, co-dependency is virtually the definition of a successful and happy marriage. Read that article again and again - I think you will find it more and more comforting each time you read it.<P>Don't let your therapist "label" you!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Cathy-<BR>You and I do seem to have some of the same issues. I also believe that mother hood had a lot to do with the way I handle things. But I also know that my H, who has a weak and obessive personality, was eventually cowed by my constant intrusion into his affairs. I took all major responsibility from him. Yes it hurt him. He became unable to handle even the basic responsibilities of the household. Disciplining the kids, folow through with it, bill paying, money spending without checking account, joining posh clubs when the monthly dues we could not pay, etc. <P>Terri-<BR> But yes it hurt me! I became a glutton for punishment!<P>Being helpful is one thing, but I put off getting a job for two years because I got sucked into helping in my kids' classrooms, excessively--Room mom. <P>I do have classic tendencies. Therapist did not force this idea on me, actually I read an article on it here, before she ever said anything and though I didn't tell her, when she told me, I was not surprised. It is really obvious. <P>She did not spend any time on it at all, she saw it the first private session with me. But waited to confirm with other visits.<P>I am learning a lot about myself, and I understand things are not always pleasant. I am dealing with my shortcomings though. <P>VENT TIME:<P>My h is not. He has sat on his a** drinking, watching tv and NOT TALKING, practically since dday. Son of a b****!!! I hate his weaknesses, they are driving me out of my mind!! I really do not know if I even want to be married to a sod like that. I don't get a chance to find out, though, because he won't work on the marriage, he cannot even do no-contact. Wimp! He is lazy and selfish and hurting the OW as well as me, she just hangs on; as I do, awaiting his decision. That knife gets turned every day>>>>>>>in my heart. And hers too, I do not even hold any malice for her, it is him. He has done this and he continues to do it. VENT, VENT, VENT, VENT..... <P>I really LB'd him tonite. His silence gets the best of me! I told him about his nightly rituals and even that he was being as heartless to the OW as he was to me. That got to him. I told him he had to let her go so she could get on with her life. That he wasn't being fair to her. That she did not have a place in our life; and she had to go! Nice, huh? LB and CD filled. Yea I really took control, and made him feel like sh**, so he would feel something, the bast***! Of course I really am tired of being the doormat. It was one thing if he would make some effort like he promised, but no-o-o-o. vent, vent, vent,<P>I am stopping I am so out of control. If it wasn't so late i would get dressed again and go for a three mile walk! I am not going to sleep tonite and I have to sing tomorrow! GREAT. First fall Sunday and I go to bed with this in my heart, I need to pray and then go to bed.<P>Please pray for my H--he needs strength to fight!! For us.<P><p>[This message has been edited by burnedspouse (edited September 10, 2000).]

I read the article about codependency and marraiges as well. There are probably postitive and negative poles to any trait we exhibit.<P>I think reading about codependency and counterdependency can only help you grow. It is a way to learn about yourself that will help you change your behavior.<P>I don't know if you did a search on the topic on the internet, but it is worthwhile.<P>I found a lot of useful information.<P>

There is a book called Women Who Love Too Much. After reading it, I felt confused: I want a healthy, interdependent marriage, but doing all that it took seemed to make me co-dependent. I can't seem to shake the idea that Plan A is so destructive to one'es self-esteem. Oh, I know the principle of doing for yourself, but really, what is the goal? To better yourself for someone else? I am just bitter and frustrated and confused with all this. <P>Basically, how much is too much?

I am gettting to the point that my plan A is self growth and giving personal space to H without judging him or the OW><P>I tell him when he is being hurtful or rude or not talking, but I mostly talk about myself and my hopes for us.<P>I think that self improvement can only be GOOD for the marriage, but only do it for you. That is what I am doing. Your H will discover new things about you, the mystery might help him to take a better look. He doesn't have to know everything...be a little mysterious. That is what I am doing as much as I can.<P>I will not be a doormat, no matter what, I was that the whole time during the A--that part of my life is over! (Not knowing why my H is so distant, no tenderness, no noticing things I do--like quitting smoking!)<P>I know the reasons now...so it is to myself i look to for my strength. I am struggling with it, though. I have had no self esteem for years...

gsd,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I can't seem to shake the idea that Plan A is so destructive to one'es self-esteem. Oh, I know the principle of doing for yourself, but really, what is the goal? To better yourself for someone else? I am just bitter and frustrated and confused with all this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>gsd,<P>Plan A is only destructive to one's self esteem if one thinks that being nice to someone else makes you something less.<P>If you believe that you are owed something everytime you are nice, no one will want to play that game with you. STBX did that alot. Because STBX did something yesterday, I should be doing this and that today!<P>If your self esteem is wrapped up in getting another person to do something, that is not self esteem, but their esteem. self esteem is that you can do it, have done it, are good at it, and don't care if someone else can do it or not.<P>If your H likes backrubs, then your giving him one has no bearing on whether you have high self esteem or low self esteem. your self esteem comes from events other than your H. like your career, your talents, your hobbies, etc, and successes in that area build your self esteem.<P>thl<P>