Can we have a discussion about this? I just reread the part of the book about plan B and it seems like it says that plan A was not meant for long term and that it should have a time limit. That if the affair does not end you should move to plan B to presearve your love, but also to show them what it will be like after your divorce, when they are stuck with only OP for getting their needs met. Seems like this is a dose of reality for them and may bring them out of thier fantasy world.<P>But I see alot of people on here trying to plan A for a long time, and I wonder if that is good or bad. Yes, it shows that you have changed, but does it also give them the immpression that its OK to continue with OP, because there are no real consequences?<P>I know Lostva, says she was in plan A, and yet, it seems that her H cut off contact with her and was dependant on OW to try and make a life with, right? So although Lori stayed in contact a little with cards and letters, there was still that aspect of him having to depend totally on PT (a scarey thought I am sure )<P>What do you all think? My H is getting ready to move out, and I know it will be easier to plan A without the constant in my face about the affair. But I wonder if that is the most productive thing to do. Would plan B force him to face reality? Its hard because of course like everyone else I cling to that contact and think if I don't contact him he will just move happily on with his life with OW and forget me. <P>What does everyone else think about this?<BR>Lora<BR>

Hey Lora,<P>Like you said about Lostva, I believe that even tho she was in Plan A in her head, that truly it was more of a Plan B but reversed. Her H was not in contact for some months even tho Lori did send cards. So I see what you do, that PT was tasked with meeting all of Roberts needs and she failed (of course she did)<P>[Lostva, pls let me know if I have my stats wrong on this.]<P>It seems the Plan A that most of us are dealing with on this board is constant contact with WS, whether separated or not. And the ones who aren't separated and doing Plan A are the ppl that have it in their face 24/7, I've been there (7.5 mos worth) and it's not pretty. There were times I felt I was loosing my mind. I felt I was being deliberately emotionally abused. <P>I look back and I'm grateful and do not regret I did the Plan A, altho I think I could have peared it down to 5 mos and that would have been sufficient. It was at the 5 month mark my H started to attend counseling and told be I've been wonderful (Full Love Bank). Those last two months were almost unbearable, as H's A started up all over again. I didn't think I could go on any longer, at least not under those circumstances.<P>Well, there's my 2 cents worth.<P>Prayers for your Doc appt tomorrow morning, Lora!<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 10, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I see alot of people on here trying to plan A for a long time, and I wonder if that is good or bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>...you are so right...<BR>...but knowing when is too long or not enough is a very personal thing...<BR>...and varies form individual to individual.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...but does it also give them the immpression that its OK to continue with OP, because there are no real consequences?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...It should <B>Not</B>!<BR>...in honesty of relationships the FS should be telling the WS along the way of the WS's displeasure!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I wonder if that(staying with Plan A) is the most productive thing to do...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...being productive is not the true end goal of Plan A...<BR>...it is to grow in yourself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Would plan B force him to face reality? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...isn't the main issue...<BR>...it's about you and your state of mind...<BR>..."can you continue Plan A"...<BR>......not "what effect does it have on spouse.<P> <P>Jim

Jo,<BR>You are lucky, I dont feel my H ever had any gains in his LB from my plan A. <P>Jim,<BR>Thats the thing I don't think I have ever been able to do... plan A and tell him I am displeased with his having an affair in a plan a way. Of course, he has been in denial of it till the end. When I told him I was displeased with his friendship with OW it only made him hide it more.<P>With him out of the house it might be easy to plan A forever, but is it good for me to live my life that way? Will I be able to grow myself in plan A forever? <BR>Lora

Hi,<P>I have been in plan a for 19 months. For the last twelve months h has been living in an apt. He spends a lot of time here because of the kids. While I haven't done a perfect plan a I've done my best and he still doesn't know if he'll ever move home.<P>I honestly have no idea if ow is still in the picture. He claims she is not. I too am afraid that going to plan b will push him to her. <P>I am torn as to whether to go to plan b or not. I just don't think he really understands what divorce would be like. NSR says that plan b isn't to force reality on them but to save the love we have left. I just don't know what to do. I can probably continue with plan a but feel like until he truly understands the ramifications of divorce he will continue to fence sit. <P>I guess I really have'nt any advice for you but I do have another question that I would like to have addressed in this discussion. Is it appropriate to initiate plan b if ow is out of the picture but sp won't commit to marriage?<P>Hang in there with the moving process. It's hard to watch. I was a basket case. <P>Chris

Lora,<P>Plan A and honesty go hand in hand...<BR>I'd seriously consider som MB counseling guidance on how to do this...<BR>Of course the "assertive communication techniques" approach needs to be tried several times. Remember the post... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/002262.html" TARGET=_blank>How to say my feelings without it being a LB</A>!<P>No one can Plan A forever...<BR>...it would be to deny your own selfhood!<BR>...(again a "personalist" philosophy)<P>You can grow in Plan B...<BR>...in fact if your don't grow in Plan B....<BR>...you're missing what Plan B is about too!<P>Prayers... <P>Jim

Lora, I think that Jim is right. It can be a very individual call. And Jo is right that it is difficult to do plan B when they are constantly "in your face" so to speak.<P>It seems to work really well when they act so "sure" of the OP (like lostva's H and others) and get a real dose of reality.<P>But when they are still confused it may be just as well to plan A.... especially as Jim puts it since it is about YOU!!!<P>My H seemed very "sure" in the beginning when he wanted to move out, and then when he did first move out....and he was disconnected from me AND the kids. He sort of did a plan B, then I sort of "called him on it" doing my own... he then did a turn around... and began to reconnect with the kids.<P>That's when it gets really difficult. Because they are, in a sense, getting those needs met by you.<P>In my case, OW pulled her own stunt by getting pregnant which really put a glitch into things. I had backed away, but my H has a real dilemma on his hands... I know for the conflict avoider H that I have that me getting a D would take him off the hook.. even though he still might not be happy. At least he would still have the adoring, martyr, OW to help him with his work.<P>He can't really do it without her right now. Plus, I know he has to feel some responsibility for the situation. So he probably feels trapped not only by us, but by her at the present. Not a great place to be I imagine.<P>He knows how I feel about the situation. He knows how his family feels about the situation. And I know he is not happy about the situation. So I plan A. Let him come when he wants to see the kids and am just nice.<P>It is easier when they are not living with you. You can focus more on yourself and not obsess about the situation. I have been able to grow a lot during these past months. I don't know what will happen, but he is the father of our children first...and I know he loves them even if he doesn't really love himself at this point. As far as loving the OP, I think he is confusing love with something else. I can only hope he figures that out.<P>My thoughts for you are to continue to plan A, making it more for YOU, and just go to plan B when you feel like you are at the brink of losing love for your H.

Lora,<BR>I thought plan b would help H face reality too.As you know so far he is in fantasy land.<BR>You have planned A for a long time, and I know you are getting tired.I guess the real question is, how much love to you have left for your H?I work evenings tomorrow,I will be waiting to get home to read how your appointment went.Will you post please and tell us? Love and prayers,beth

Lora,<P>You can grow in plan a. I have grown tremendously and changed all behavior that needed to be changed to correct the problems in our marriage. <P>I know that I have done all that I can to make this marriage work. It is up to him now.<P>If you can plan a long term with out losing love, then go ahead. I have plan a'd a long time and still love my h. I think I realize now how much I really want to make this marriage work. Of course there are some days that I want to throw in the towel but one look at my boys faces and I know that I just need to keep trying. I don't think that long term plan a has stopped me from going on with my life. Life has to go on with two boys whether I'm in a or b. <P>Sometimes I feel like a "pretend" family because we do all the things families do except dad doesn't keep his clothes here or sleep here. I know that's not normal and I don't like it but it's either that or plan b and I failed at plan b last time I tried.<P>Hang in there.<P>Chris

Hi Lora:<P>You have asked a question I used to ask myself earlier in this process. But as I moved into Plan A and began to accept my part in the breakdone of our marriage, a lot of my anger disappeared and suddenly I was able to look at my H as the poor mixup individual he really is. And like any individual we love who has made and continues to make mistakes, I am doing my best to stand by him and let him work through his problem by himself. And yes, this is hard.<P>So Plan A is no effort on my part because I feel right now I am the stronger one in this relationship and I am remaining constant in my love and support while at the same time working on making myself a better partner.<P>There always comes a time when we need to let go, however, and I see Plan B as the final step, not as a last ditch attempt to pursuade him to come back but as a beginning to the process of letting go for me. If as a result my H suddenly realizes the error of his ways and decides he needs to return, then so much the better. <P>The timetable for letting go is different for everyone, so it is possible for some to Plan A for long periods and others only for a short period of time. But do give Plan A time enough for you yourself to come to terms with the your failing marriage and your part in it, the affair, its causes and the possibility of moving past it. <P>The mental exercise of comtemplating these issues will ease the pain and hurt you feel and help you move past it, if only because it gives you something to focus on besides what's happening. Time has a great ability to clarify so many things...let it work its magic here too.<P>Buffy<P><BR>

Hi, Lora,<P>Just wanted to insert my two cents here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea behind Plan A having a time limit is related to how long the BS can keep it up. I think the six month figure is just an average, your mileage may vary.<P>Lori and I have discussed this several times. I <B>never</B> felt Plan B was an option in my case because W would just have given up had we had no contact. To be honest, I probably would have given up, too. Lori can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think she believed in Plan B, either(at least in her situation).<P>Remember that Plan A is <B>not</B> a method for getting your H back, it is a <I>lifestyle</I>(sorry, Jim, I disagree with you here, "no one can Plan A forever", only time I have disagreed with you, I think) that one adopts for their own benefit. It will help you in relationships in addition to your S or SO.<P>Jo,<BR>Why "pare down" Plan A? <P>Hugs to all...<P>--DeWayne--

Hi! My own situation was very different, since my wife's affair ended immediately following discovery. However, I have thought about these issues a lot, since our own recovery was, for several months, very difficult.<P>Basically, all "Plan A" involves is treating your spouse with the respect, love and consideration that your spouse deserves. In that sense, you should definitely plan on doing it for the rest of your life.<P>BUT ... if your spouse does not reciprocate, if your spouse carries on with the enormous cruelty and disrepect of an affair, then you do not have a marriage that can be carried on for the rest of your life. I think that some wayward spouses are capable of settling down and maintaining the affair and the marriage for many, many years. By remaining in that situation for more than a short time (4 to 8 months, in my own opinion) you are implicitly condoning their behavior. You have become part of the new, degrading system.<P>So in my own opinion (and I have little personal experience to back this one up), you SHOULD initiate a complete separation (the famous plan B) if the affair has continued past the point where you have worked out your own role in the marriage and changed your own behaviors, and your spouse has had a reasonable opportunity to end the affair.<P>I think that some people are capable of loving their wayward spouses for many years, even in the face of an ongoing affair. But that doesn't mean that the marriage should go on for that long a time period. <P>You must acknowledge that some things are worse than divorce, things like long-term infidelity or an emotionally abusive relationship. And allowing them to continue makes you complicit in your spouses own degradation. Even if you can love your spouse forever, you have to call a halt to such an unhealthy pattern at some point.<P>So I vote firmly against 'long-term plan As". And I remember that, even during the worst of our own situation, one of the things about my that my wife most respected was my insistence that my goal was a rich, mutually satisfying marriage, and that I wouldn't settle for less.<P>In that sense, the separation of "Plan B" is not just for you, to preserve your own love for your spouse. Nor is it just a ploy to bring your spouse to his or her senses (though it might well do that). It is a very careful statement that you will do EVERYTHING appropriate to rebuild your marriage, but that your spouse MUST be an equal partner and treat you with the respect that you deserve.<P>The separation of "Plan B" gives your spouse the opportunity to choose their own way. And some will choose never to come back, whereas others will rebuild the marriage. But it is the last, most important thing that you can offer them. The respect and dignity of being treated as an adult who must take responsibility for his or her own actions.<P>I am sorry about the pain that you are caught up in now, Lora. There are no easy answers, and I really don't know what to say. But you are a human being, a person worthy of tremendous respect. If your husband is moving out, after all you have been through, it might be best to tell him that you cannot condone his behavior, though you do understand his pain and confusion. And that you can no longer stay in contact with him while his relationship continues, both because it would be too painful for you, and because it would signify approval and acceptance on your part, But that you do love him and would be willing to rebuild a marriage if he would end his affair completely. And that if he reaches that point, he should not feel afraid to call you and to begin anew.<P>Would that be best? I dont' know. Only you can tell. I wish you strength and wisdom.<P>StillTrying

I think Still Trying's response deserves notable thread status. Bravo.<P>This is the heart of the matter. One can treat one's spouse with love and respect "for life" - in fact this is preferable especially if there are children involved and continuting contact is inevitable. But this is far different from locking yourself into an unfaithful marriage "for life". This is not the intent of plan a, nor do I think it is the desire of anyone on this board.<P>But sadly, I see where and how it can happen. I am a prime example having been in plan A for over 20 months. I do not intend to stay here much longer. I do still love my H, I do still want my marriage, but I want a partnership - not a one-sided, caretaking relationship. Yet for the last year and a half in plan A, I have sent the message - through my actions - that I would settle for less - even though throughout I continued to "say" the affair was not acceptable. <P>I do believe that at some point you must act on these convictions or it eats away slowly at your self respect and integrity. Plan B lets you do this without jumping to divorce prematurely.<P>Lora - I know your pain and confusion. I will just say that staying in plan A too long only hurt me more. I wish you strength in making this difficult decision.<P>Starpony

<B>--DeWayne--</B>...<P>...did I really say... "no one can Plan A forever"?<P>...yep... I did!<P>I agree with you though... Plan A <B>is</B> a <B><I>lifestyle</I></B>... <BR>...but a lifestyle with <B>one particular person</B>...<P>The philosophy of applying Plan A to all of your relationships is healthy and a very good thing!<P>But when the (faithful spouse)FS is given less dignity than is humanly reasonable... for an extended period of time....<BR>...from the WS...<BR>...it is time to break that relationship...<BR>......and that's why Plan B is there!<P>Yes... Plan A forever...<BR>...but if the person you are forming/having the relationship with doesn't reciprocate...<BR>...the relationship cannot grow.<P>Time...<BR>...it's always the big question.<P>DeWayne... I love you still... <P>Jim

Hi Heartpain,<P>I too believe that Plan A is for life and I plan on Plan Aing forever, however, after 5 months of me working on myself and treating my H nice and with respect he started to blame and be blatantly mean again. It was like going back to square one. He and his OW both participated in abusive behavior. The OW was harassing me on on answering machine saying horrible things.<P>At that junctor my health was suffering and I was told I had to relieve the stress I was under or things might very well get worse healthwise.<P>So by saying I could have pared it down to two less months, I mean I should have gave my H that loving ultimatum at the five month mark, as opposed to the 7.5 month mark. The ultimatum being ... he end the A or he needs to leave.<P>We all have our limits and I had both emotionally and physically reached mine. I continued to Plan A my H after he left and right now that's where we're at, altho I have avoided him to create some emotional distancing and I am seriously considering the Plan B letter.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 11, 2000).]

Chris, Jim and tootrusting and Buffy and Dewayne,<BR>Thanks for your imput, think I agree with you all. I agree that you can plan A for a long time if you consider it treating with respect and kindness. i know plan B is more for me to keep from loosing my love.<P>Beth, I have a mammogram schedualed tomorrow, will proabably be awhile before i get results.<P>Still trying and Starpony,<BR> Yes, that is what I was trying to ask and get across in my poorly expressed way. I do feel like if you continue to plan a in the face of total disrespect, you are teaching your spouse that it is OK. I know you are supposed to make clear that you diapprove of their actins, but if it is not shown in your actions, do they really beleive it? Jo said her H started to think there was something wrong with her, after all he was treating her rotten and she kept up plan A with treating him well. I don't think that is the message we want to send either.<BR>Lora<BR>

Thanks for this thread....I was going to ask a very related question myself: I just re-read portions of SAA and it seems to indicate that Plan A and Plan B are for couples trying to recover.... What about the couple where one spouse has absolutely NO INTEREST in recovery...in fact, for my H, it's a done deal....he "ain't coming home!"<P>I've been in a good Plan A since March of this year, as far as I can tell. It doesn't matter to my H because he has his mind made up! He isn't coming home and he isn't going to work on the marriage. It's over as far as he's concerned. He can take or leave my friendship....in fact he hasn't spoken to me for over three weeks and even missed my birthday without so much as a peep. So I wrestle daily with Plan A, Plan B....what difference does it make now?? I believe in the principles of Plan A...for life in all relationships. It's good advice. But how do I really know if I've change, number one, and number two, I'll never really know until my H and I TRY to reconcile, if I've really changes, now will I?<P>StillTrying said: <B>So in my own opinion (and I have little personal experience to back this one up), you SHOULD initiate a complete separation (the famous plan B) if the affair has continued past the point where you have worked out your own role in the marriage and changed your own behaviors, and your spouse has had a reasonable opportunity to end the affair.</B><P>That's EXACTLY where I am.....I think I've changed and realized what my role in the demise of the marriage was. And I believe I've given my H a reasonable time to change his behavior (10 months). It's not changing and in fact, I feel that each day that goes by, it's just making it easier for him to continue because I don't squak about it. I don't want to Plan B, but I also can't stay in this in-between place of hoping, waiting, Plan a-ing and just letting him have his cake and eat it too. It's starting to MAKE me feel like a co-dependant or something!!<P>Lora said: <B>But I see alot of people on here trying to plan A for a long time, and I wonder if that is good or bad. Yes, it shows that you have changed, but does it also give them the immpression that its OK to continue with OP, because there are no real consequences?</B><P>So, where do you draw the line? Wouldn't you say the wife of an alcoholic is just "Plan A-ing?" What's the diff?<P>Any comments would be greatly appreciated....<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited September 11, 2000).]

Mrs O, Well, since I asked the question, I obviously am not sure. <P>But, I think Ive learned plan B is about letting go, giving the affair more time to die its natural death, begining to move on yourself, but keeping what love you have for your spouse. I think it might give you a little feeling of control as you are asking him not to contact you, so when he doesn't maybe it won't hurt so much.<P>My H is the same, he said a trial seperation, but I beleive it was only to ease out of here without a scene. He has never wanted to work on the marriage or give me a chance, and has not awknowleged any change in me. He seems totally in the Ow can do no wrong, I can do no right stage, and I hope when he moves out I can stop being responsible for all that is wrong in his life. I think I will go to plan B fairly soon, but I may chicken out too. I will see how I feel once he is gone.<BR>Lora

Thanks, Lora....I think I may have jumped into this discussion too late...<P>I think I'll re-post/rephrase my question in the Plan A/Plan B forum and see what other response I get....<P>Plan A and Plan B are great philosophys and principles, but in reality it's our LIVES and it's really, really hard sometimes to know what to do each day or at any given moment. For an idealist like myself, facing this reality has been and is the hardest thing I've ever done and I could give a rip how strong it'll make me. I just want to stop hurting all the time.<P>Take care and thanks for this thread...<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P><BR>

Hey Lora-<BR>Just wanted to share what's been going on with me since H moved out about 5 weeks ago. He has been here or we have been on the phone for hours every day since he left. At first, it all seemed to have to do with the kids- the same kids that he all but ignored before he moved. He finally admitted his A about 3 weeks ago and the change in him since then has been dramatic. He is continuing with the EA, PA is on hold until OW (also married and has 2 kids) leaves her H. My H has apologized numerous times. He has tried to explain how the A has caused him to lose respect for himself- always lying and sneaking, ignoring me and the kids, doing things that he hates in other people, but couldn't seem to not do himself.<P>I Plan Aed for several months- as best I could when he wasn't willing to share his needs with me. So my Plan A was more about me, though some of my changes were things I thought he would be happy with. But, he never seemed to notice, or at least never commented. I think you said that your H does not notice. <P>I do not know if the change is due to his moving out or his admission of the A, but we are now communicating more than we have in years. He is asking me about my needs and how well he is meeting them. He has reconnected with the kids. He is telling me when he has communication with OW and right now, it is only a phone conversation 2-3 times a week. He is acknowledging all that I do for him as well as the the changes I've made- the ones I thought he hadn't noticed. He is looking at me when we talk- something he avoided for a long time. He has not committed to the marriage, or said anything about wanting to try to make it work. I've managed to keep my expectations low, but am very pleased that we seem to be communicating so much better.<P>I do not know where this will lead- I do believe he is now truthful with me, though I also know that if OW leaves her H, they will try to have a "normal" relationship. I don't know how I will handle that if it happens- but for now, I know that my Plan A has been depositing love units even though I really thought he was not noticing.<P>I do have the same questions about Plan A vs. Plan B, though I believe that for now, as long as he is being honest with me and I feel that we are making some progress, I will continue to Plan A. I am hoping that I have some time to make considerable more deposits before OW is available, or that he will tire of waiting.<P>Has your H admitted his A?