I noticed Mike C2 asked how things were going (thanks for asking Mike ), so I thought I should drop a line concerning this past weekend's event. <P>I confronted (or discussed or whatever it's called) my wife with the latest events regarding the resumption of her affair. It didn't go as I had planned. I had hoped to write a letter to her to make my thoughts clear. I also thought a letter would allow her time to get her thoughts in order prior to discussing this. The letter didn't happen. The discussion was sort of kicked off by me getting angry with a little comment she made toward me - not a good way to start a 'deep' discussion. <P>Anyway, everything was put on the table. She felt she wasn't doing anything wrong anymore. She said I am asking her to feel something for me she just doesn't feel right now. That I am asking her to be someone she isn't. Tears were shed. She did say she loved me - she never said she was sorry. <P>Since then, I believe she has slipped into a deeper depression than before. She aloof and doesn't really want to spend time with me like she did. I don't know if that discussion helped or hindered our marriage recovery.<P>So, that's where we are - just sort of existing right now. <P>As for me, I'm doing OK. I fear my heart is hardening. Discovering that the affair didn't die like I thought is a pretty tough pill to swallow. It's hard to want to trust again. It's hard to open yourself up to another possible heart breaking situation. You're more inclinded to guard your feelings. You knw the saying...fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I don't know what fool 3 times is.<P>I think some time needs to pass to see where things go from here. <P>SHA <P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

SHA,<P>Sorry to hear that the confrontation didn't go as planned. She doesn't see that being married and communicating with the OM is wrong??? Is there anything she is willing to do about the depression?? Or do you think it is caused by the fact that she knows she is causing great pain and cheating herself by being in contact with OM?<P>Have you considered getting in contact with a counselor, such as Steve Harley?<P>Man, I am just full of questions. I suspect you have noticed that I haven't offered any advice. I really don't know what to say at this point. I don't think all is lost, but it does seem that things have to settle down a bit before even an outsider can suggest anything, much less you do anything being so embroiled in this mess.<P>SHA, just realize that if we can help we will. Take your time, but don't be afraid to be decisive when you know what you want to do.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hello SHA,<BR>(((((hugs)))))<BR>I think the discussion needed to happen....the truth may just pop her into reality again? <BR>(((((hugs)))) cl

Sir Hurts Alot,<P>We have much in common here, my friend. On my thread you offered your support, and I do the same to you.<P>The first dday of firestorm's affair was by his confession, but he did not tell the whole truth about the extent of their involvement. He confessed only what he could not justify in his own mind, the sexual contact. He could excuse the relationship as a "friendship", and the secret contact as necessary because of a jealous, demanding wife. But he could NOT justify the sexual contact, so he confessed it. He made promises, professed his love, and begged me to stay. He DID love me and want me to stay. He still does.<P>But he thought he could and should be able to have a "friendship", even though he promised not to. You see, he still wanted the relationship with her and still thought she was wonderful and a true friend. <P>At the time, he really wanted to save our marriage and promised anything to do so. He really intended to keep those promises at the time, but like so many others he backslid and procrastinated. He never ENDED the affair, claiming it was best to "just let it die" without writing the letter. He INTENDED to follow the MB principles regarding POJA, honesty, and time, but just never got around to it.<P>And I let it slide because I didn't want to be a nag. But I withdrew, and then he withdrew. And then I withdrew some more, and then the other woman contacted him.<P>And she didn't make him feel guilty, or expect him to be open and honest, or cry from the heartbreak. Instead, she was thrilled to have him back and thought he was her "knight in shining armor", while I thought he was a lying cheat that I had to check up on all the time.<P>So here we are, just after dday #2. This time it came not by confession, but by confrontation. So this time, instead of being completely heartbroken, I am disgusted, fed up, and most of all REALLY angry.<P>Yet I believe in the committment of marriage and plan to give it my best effort again, but things will be MUCH different this time. This time he will lead, and I will follow. If he is honest and sincere this time, we will make it. If he is not, I will survive without him. But he has to REALLY want it and REALLY work for it.<P>Things are different this time for a number of reasons. One is that he sees the other woman is NOT his friend, but an adultress who was trying to break up our marriage (hence the discovery). Another is that I have asked for very little information this time, only that what he volunteers to tell me be the truth, and that if he is not going to tell the absolute truth, to say nothing. I have also specifically asked that he make NO promises to me, but to show his intent with actions, not words. He is doing that.<P>What I have to accept, and you might have to, is that this is not two separate affairs but one of longer duration than I believed. I honestly knew that it was not really over, but believed that it was "inactive". And it was for a period of time. It was almost inevitable that our recovery would fail, especially because it was based on half-truths and promises made under the threat of divorce.<P>This time, firestorm knows that nothing will save our marriage but him, and I have made no threats except of what will happen if he causes our children any more pain and suffering. That will be very bad for him, believe me.<P>Basically, I just feel so much more secure with myself and at peace this time. Honestly, if it fails this time, what will I have lost? But what will he have lost?<P>It will take a long time for me to forgive, and trust again. I hope that I will be able to, and think I will if firestorm gives me reason to do so.<P>The bottom line is that I still want to save my marriage and family, and firestorm says that he wants the same thing. All I am doing is giving him the chance to do so.<P>No matter what happens, my conscience will be clear and my pain will be lessened. Firestorm can never have that.<P>To sum it all up, in answer to the question what is different this time? I KNOW THAT I AM DIFFERENT THIS TIME. I can only hope and pray that firestorm is.<P>Please keep in touch.<P>Peppermint

SHA - <P>Thanks for giving us the update. I wondered what was happening. . .I guess I don't have any real advice, but I just have to say that you (and peppermint) are two of the strongest people I have ever not met. I admire your strength and courage at this very, very difficult time.<P>I guess the only thing I can say is don't lose hope. . .I am a WS, as you know by now. And, I'll give you a few more details about my situation - so you can see how there are downslides, but there can be great uphill climbs too. Some of this stuff I never posted before, so I hope I don't get flamed. . .<P>Anyway, friendship developed into an EA, after a few months it turned physical. . .immediately felt remorse, guilt, tired of lying, cheating, etc. . .confided in H about affair. Sought H's forgiveness, went to confession and sought God's forgiveness.<P>Did not know about marriage builders at the time, tried to resolve issues by being faithful to H and trying to remain friends with the OM, maintained contact like A never ended, then the cycle started again - friendship, turned into EA, and then the EA went physical the second and final time. Immediately felt ten times worse than before, and confided in H for the second time, asked for forgiveness, went to confession. . .I couldn't believe that I made that horrible mistake once - but twice - in less than two months. Thank God I found marriagebuilders!<P>After the second and final end to the A - I immediately did all kinds of research on infidelity, got every book that I could on the subject, got Christain books for inspiration, read the Bible, sought solace in a bible study group, tried to figure out why this happened. . .Yes, my H and I have been in recovery for 5 months - it's been five months since the absolute end of the A, and my total recommitment to my marriage. . .<P>But the 2-3 months between the first confession to my H and the second one - were horrible. I can now only imagine the pain I put my H through. . .He doesn't read here often, but I want to apologize to him and to you all. . .I had a horrible backslide. . .there's no excuse. . .<P>The only thing that I am truly thankful for is that my H gave me that second chance. I cannot explain clearly how I feel right now, but I actually get scared when I think about how close I came to losing everything, to losing the one man who truly loved me for who I am. . .<P>I think for the WS, there are always those temptations, or we have those backslides because we think we can get through this mess ourselves, but we're very confused. . .we don't know who we love, we cannot even trust ourselves.<P>Now, though, since finding this site, learning about infidelity and its effects, I have grown enormously. . .And I really do think my H and I are going to make it. I am in love - whatever you want to call it - but I never ever want to lose my H and the love that we have for each other. But I have to admit - for a while there - it did seem very one-sided. . .Sometimes, I told my H I loved him, when I was really unsure. Sometimes, I guess I felt like I was going through the motions, but now, I don't. . .<P>Three months ago, the OM called me. . .I told my H about the contact. . . he even went to great lengths and showed enormous support and said "If you think you can only be friends, than I am okay with you talking to him." The scary thing. . .I did "take the OM's calls." I never contacted him first - so in my mind - it was no contact, no contact FROM me. . .<P>The thing that woke me up, was comments that were made on this site to me, that directly influenced me and had a profound affect on me - by staying in contact, I really WAS hurting my H - even if he was only "A friend" I wouldn't treat another friend that way - intentional cause harm. . .The wake up call also came inthe form of the OM inviting me to his hotel room while he was in town. . .And how I turned that down, now looking back on it, was divine intervention - at least for me. I know that sounds crazy, but I think God knew what was in my heart, that I did not want this EMA, that I wanted to love my H, but I just didn't have the strength to do it on my own - I put it in HIS hands. . .<P>So, I don't know if I have offended anyone or not, but now, when I feel those weak moments I turn to God for help. . .I thank him for so many things. . .but I explain to him that I am too weak to fight this battle and put things in his hand. I actually prayed that the OM find someone else, or that God opens his eyes to the sin that we had committed - whatever I felt at that moment - but for three months it has worked. . .No calls from the OM - maybe coincidence, maybe he finally got the hint that I wasn't going to call him back, maybe that hurt his ego, and it wasn't divine intervention, but I like to think otherwise. . .<P>I guess, the point of my long ramble. . .is that I know your WSs don't deserve second chances, or even third chances. . .That's something you can choose to give. . .But from my point of view - even if I am only 1 in a 100 WS who can turn her life around, refocus on my spouse and actually help to build a better marriage with my H - I am SURE GLAD my H didn't play the odds - that he took a chance on me. . .<P>I think that's why I have a whole new appreciation for my H - his endurance, his patience, his kindness, his love. . .I just can't tell you how much things have changed - for the better. We're still a work in progress. . .But it's like a painting, we started out as an idea in the artist's mind, then gradually as the artist begins to paint the colors become more vibrant, even more beautiful than you could ever imagine. And I don't think the artist is ever really finished. . .he keeps painting a touch here and a dab there. . .but with each new dab, the picture - somehow becomes more real, more beautiful. . .<P>I know this got really sappy at the end, but I guess I am doing so much better through recovery - because I do have a better perspective of things, everything is beginnig to fall into place. . .<P>I often talk about taking risks. . .and I never really thought of my H as a risk-taker before (he doesn't play the lottery, he stays in a field that he is comfortable with. . .) but I am sure glad he took that chance with me. . .I hope that your spouses come to those same realizations about you. . .you are good, good people. . .don't lose hope.

SHA,<P>Do we have to ASK for an update? You know we are looking for them.<P>I missed it. Her whole reason is that she is doing nothing wrong? Then why is she going behind your back?<P>Is she trying to be "just friends"? This has been the cry of every WS and it just doesn't work.<P>I'm sorry you're back here this way, David. I remember I told you not to go when you thought things were going really well. I don't think any of us can stamp ourselves "recovered" and stop needing support.<P>Sorry, no advice. What do you plan to do? Plan B? <P>------------------<BR>Cindy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sir Hurts Alot:<BR><B>I noticed Mike C2 asked how things were going (thanks for asking Mike ), so I thought I should drop a line concerning this past weekend's event.</B><P> <P>Well...I'm sorry that things went that way. But it could have been worse. Obviously, she is racked with guilt and in the fog...you can't put any weight on what she says....as Steve Harley said to someone, think of it as rambling from a drunk person.<P>SHA, it could have been worse, at least she didn't successfully reignite the PA. All we are talking about here is some emails and phone calls. <P>In your stronger moments try to have some sympathy for the agony she is living. she is obviously a lost soul right now. Despite her statements to you, she knows she screwed up. <P><B>Since then, I believe she has slipped into a deeper depression than before.</B><P>Any thought of meds?<P>I don't know how to advise you, but I know who would. Get on the phone with a Harley.<P>Hang in there,<P>Mike<BR>

SHA,<P>No advice to offer only Prayers and best wishes. Just wanted you to know that you have another in your corner pullin' for ya.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Tim

SHA:<P>I understand the pain you are feeling as well. Our second Dday was one month ago. I really feel this time that the pain, anger and depression is worse for me.<BR> <BR>This quote you used: <BR>"You knw the saying...fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I don't know what fool 3 times is." <BR>Is one I actually said to my husband and the ow when I caught them together in our house (not home for me right now). <P>Time is something I need to have and patience. My husband says it is different this time for him as well. He actually said "HE WOKE UP". Since he was attacked at his work place and the OW husband was yelling everything with his co-workers around can really make a difference. It has been tough for him daily to go to work. Even facing his family this time has been just a difficult. Last time we keep it a secret. <BR>This time it is public knowledge.<P>My thoughts and prayers are with you. A big fear for any betrayed is a second discovery, when you think that recovery is going good. It seems that there are several betrayed who just have had a second discovery. It just plain s**ks. I hope that your wife will wake up as well. You deserve the best life possible. <P>Keep in touch and post whenever you need too.<P>Judy<P><BR>

SHA, when I discovered my wifes affair(s), she seemed pretty sad/remorseful and said she felt guilty. Not exactly, but she did apologize a few times. This was after the om had moved away. After she left & moved in with him, she told me she didn't feel guilty or bad about ANYTHING she did.<P>I don't think your wife is doing anything "different." In order for her to go back to the affair, she has to somehow try & justify it to herself by telling herself, "it's okay. You're not doing anything wrong."<P>It's the fog. It'll lift sometime. Prayerfully soon.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Hi SHA,<P>So sorry to hear about your situation. But, you can count me in as another passenger in your "boat". Oh, how I can relate to the disappointment, hurt, and anger. And, I said those exact same words to H-- "fool me once..."<P>In my case, H is still carrying on an EA. But, it hurts as much as if it was a PA, too. And, it's hurting our relationship as well because it's making him miserable and he is not a pleasant person to be around.<P>I don't know if I am beginning to disconnect from him or what, but, this time around I have a totally different attitude. I realize that this is beyond my control, and that I have done everything possible to resurrect the marriage. But, in the end, it takes two. Ever since he came back, I've had the feeling that I'm fighting an uphill battle. So, now I am regrouping, and doing some serious soul searching. I know that if we don't make it, I WILL be okay. And, YOU will, too!!<P>Concentrate on you right now and work on making yourself a better person. This was very difficult for me because for the last twenty years, his needs came first, and I always put mine on the back burner. They are lost and in a fog, but they must find their own way out. We can't do it for them. We can only control US.<P>Hang in there. We're here, if you need us. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

My friend, i don't know how you do it. You are amazing. But, i worry about you. <P>I can't/won't offer any advice as my marriage will likely be over within 30 days and i'm still a very long way from healing myself. There comes a time to move on, but only you will know when. <P>Suffice it to say that you're in my prayers.

SHA,<P>Waiting for you to come back to your thread...<P>Something you said makes me want to scream:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She said I am asking her to feel something for me she just doesn't feel right now. That I am asking her to be someone she isn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you asking her to feel or to DO? I remember debating this with Truth Seeker in the EN section. We make choices all the time to do things, often when we don't feel like it. I'm convinced the good feelings in a marriage follow, they don't lead. I remember the wonderful list of things you did. So maybe the feelings aren't there for her because SHE has not invested enough of herself in the marriage.<P>Again, don't know if it'll help, but K and I had a very good debate with TS that the DOING must come first. I'll see if I can search for that.

SHA,<P>Waiting for you to come back to your thread...<P>Something you said makes me want to scream:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She said I am asking her to feel something for me she just doesn't feel right now. That I am asking her to be someone she isn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you asking her to feel or to DO? I remember debating this with Truth Seeker in the EN section. We make choices all the time to do things, often when we don't feel like it. I'm convinced the good feelings in a marriage follow, they don't lead. I remember the wonderful list of things you did. So maybe the feelings aren't there for her because SHE has not invested enough of herself in the marriage.<P>Again, don't know if it'll help, but K and I had a very good debate with TS that the DOING must come first. I'll see if I can search for that.<P>Here it is...<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/001072.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/001072.html</A>

My good friends, <P>Thank you for your support and encouragement. I wish had the strength and concentration to post here more and lend a hand to others - I hope I can do that more in the days a head. Right now, I'm just trying to work through my feelings about this mess. I'm doing better today. Yesterday was a good day for my wife and us. It was almost as if she stuck her head above the fog to see what was going on around her. She gave me a few compliments, a nice hug, and a little kiss . We had a very pleasent conversation about the day and other things that are happening in our life. It was a very nice day. We'll see how the days ahead turn out. <P>Well, let me get to your responses.<P><B>Just Learning</B><BR>Your questions are good ones. Let's see, no, she doesn't see anything wrong with only "communicating" with om. She believes he is a good friend (I think he treats her like dirt). She now knows that it does bother me. We'll see how this unfolds in the days ahead. Concerning the depression, I believe she is going back on the meds. I think that is a good thing right now. I do have a counselor - my wife doesn't. I have asked her to go to counseling - she hasn't wanted to (very stubborn). Maybe this will change too. I appreciate your thoughts. <P><B>cl</B><BR>Hi cl, I haven't seen a post from you in a while. I hope you are well. Thanks for the cyber hugs. I think the discussion needed to happen too. I'm sure more discussions are needed. Thanks again. <P><B>peppermint</B><BR>You know one thing that I have always found hurtful is that my wife never felt the need to "tell" me about this. I found out and confronted - twice. I think that a spouse confessing to the other says a lot about their admiration and respect for their mate. As I look back, I wish my spouse would have confessed. Similar to you, and most others I guess, my wife kept all this from me to not "hurt" me. She needed friends of her own. She needed a sense of independence at this time in our marriage. My wife didn't promise the things your H did after our first confrontation. She did end the physical stuff, but she had emotionally divorced herself from me and it has been a long road to rebuild any intimacy between us. I have worked very hard to create to change. I'm a new man; loving, open, helpful, etc. And yet it has been extremely difficult for her to regain that "in-love" feeling for me. I know why of course, but she can't see it. She does love me, and I love her. I'm not giving up. But, I can't help but to guard my feelings from further torment. At least for now. I hope I can achieve the level of peace you have. Your confidence is inspiring. <P><B>SKM</B><BR>SKM, I can't tell you how much I value your input. Your affair started in much the same way my wife's did. The difference being that she never confided in me what had happened. I felt something was wrong. I asked her if something was wrong with "us". She dumped on ton of hurtful statements on me that crushed my spirit. I panicked and went into that needy, clingy, spouse thing. That only made things worse. She was gone a lot. I found clothes stuffed in backpacks. I found a picture of a man in her drawer. I found a note she wrote. I snooped further and found email messages - that's when I knew for sure there was another man. I felt lower than pond scum. I still tried to "win" her back. Finally, after a few months, and much prompting from the folks here, I confronted her. Things got better for a while. I knew she was still in contact with om, but it appeared to be dying. I finally thought things were over. OM was getting nervous that his wife may find out. He was also worried that my wife would leave me and he didn't want anything more than he was getting. I think I'm rambling here…. Anyway, I'm hoping that my wife is now understanding what this is doing to me and our marriage. I believe a WS has to come to those conclusions on their own. I can do what I can to change =, but it still requires a WS to MAKE the decision to save the marriage. YOU made that decision. I don't think it matters how you got there - but it's important to note that YOU did MAKE that decision. I certainly appreciate your insight into what a WS is feeling at this time. I'm not giving up. I made a vow to her and to God many years ago. I will stand by that vow the best I can. I'm just not sure how many more times I can take this. I'm trying to be patient. I'm stronger emotionally now that I have ever been in my life --how could you not be after this? Thank you SKM, for your words of wisdom, your encouragement, and most importantly your insight. <P><BR><B>schizzo</B><BR>Hi Cindy, no you don't have to ask for an update, but sometimes it is nice to know that people are thinking of you. As I stated earlier, I think my wife may be coming to realize that keeping this "friendship" isn't going to work. She has been hurting for a long time, and I know why. I hope she is starting to understand why. All, WSs have to come to this answer on their own - right? It's obvious to us, but it isn't to them. You are right about needing support, I think I will need it for quite some time. Thanks. <P><B>Mike C2</B><BR>You're right, the setback is not a complete loss. But, as SKM pointed out, it certainly could have been headed that way. I do have sympathy for what she is going through. It hurts to see her hurting. Yesterday was a good day for us. Maybe that's a sign for the days ahead. Thanks for posting!<P><B>MEDIC238</B><BR>Thanks Tim. It helps to know that there are others out there who are not only pulling for you, but they are going through the same stuff. Thanks. <P><B>bighope</B><BR>Hi Judy. It appears we are members of the "2nd discovery" club. A membership that nobody seeks. It is good to hear that your H is waking up - finally. Time will tell for my wife. I hope you are staying strong through this. It does get hard to focus on things - doesn't it? Anyway, let's pray for patience and guidance in the days ahead. Thank you for posting.<P><B>Chris (CA123)</B><BR>Hey Chris, I know there is still some justification going on. Hopefully, she is starting to understand the impact of all this. You would think the WS would get tired of feeling crapy all the time. Thanks for the prayers my friend.<P><B>sidney</B><BR>Hi sidney, there are far too many people in this boat! Sidney, thank you for the wisdom. I'm feeling much like you - knowing that I have done all I can, but that it takes two. I hope and pray my wife will realize this too. I have been working on me. I know I will make it. I went into the confrontation without fear. You get to the point where you know you've done all you can. I feel good about myself and what I've done to change. Sidney, you have grown a lot. Your words are inspiring and uplifting - thank you. And thank you for your prayers.<P><B>nlitend</B><BR>Hi nlitend. Gosh, I haven't seen a post from you in a month of Sundays. I'm so sorry to hear that things aren't going well for you. As sidney stated, we need to focus on our recovery. I hope you are working on yourself right now. I know you've worked hard at healing your marriage, you should be proud you gave it all you could. Don't give up on you, you're a good man. Thanks you for your prayers, my friend. <P>SHA

Hey schizzo, <P>Sorry it took me so long to post a reply and then as soon as I did I saw you posted again. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Are you asking her to feel or to DO?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I wasn't asking her to feel. That was her interpretation of the situation. You're right that good feelings follow. When I started giving unconditionally, I started falling in-love with my wife again. I already thought I was in-love, but when I started giving I started feeling a deeper love for her. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...because SHE has not invested enough of herself in the marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>She has been trying; but, I would like her to try harder. I would like her to be interested in my needs. she has been caught up in this mindset that if you don't feel, you don't respond. I think this is just another realization that the WS needs to find for themselves. <P>Thanks for finding the thread - I will read it. <P>Thanks again, <BR>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

SHA:<P>As a way to drive the process of her trying harder, have you thought about weekly counseling with either Steve or Jenn in which your wife would (eventually) be asked for feedback? And eventually sucked into counseling?<P>Hey, it's certainly cheaper than a second apartment...<P> <P>God bless.

SHA,<P>If the thread seems helpful, maybe she could read it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think this is just another realization that the WS needs to find for themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes and no. Until someone really "gets it", they won't go after it. But how do they get there? I wrote a reply on my kid thread to someone about this. I don't believe that all attempts to teach our WS is a LB. It is how you do it.<P>Isn't that what K's suggestion boils down to? BTW, K, I was so happy to hear your W is talking to Jennifer! Most of our counselling session time was taken by my h as she had to convince him to ACT every step of the way. And still he is only now coming to some of these realizations for himself.<P>Anyway, much of our recovery has been through my "teaching" him. I didn't want him to forget my b-day, so I told him it was coming up and what I wanted, and I reminded him in small ways like I would my 5 yr old. Not romantic, but we are trying out new behaviors, that is the heart of recovery to me.<P>(Even so I got breakfast and dinner, but no present - I had suggested a CD, nothing big. But he didn't have time to buy me anything. Oh well...)

schizzo,<P>Hey, I'M very glad that my wife is talking to Jennifer. I had exactly two contacts with her so far: the first is when I dialed her phone number, exchanged pleasantries, and then handed the phone to my wife. The second was a brief session after my wife's first session. She basically says that I should know the program well enough through Steve, so that she's going to act as my wife's counselor. And she's also throwing out the forms and stuff that my wife objects to, and using the methodology with a different flavor to it.<P>So far my wife has had two sessions, and she's really seemed to like the counseling. I'm very encouraged.<P>

SHA<BR>I’m sorry to see you still on this board and still needing the support people here offer. On the other hand, it does appear there is still hope. I am glad to see you are now confronting her and are taking more of a stand (I have not done this as much as I should and I know some would disagree with that approach but I believe we can’t swallow every single ounce of our pride). <P>You mentioned to Just Learning about your W feeling that communicating and remaining friends is OK with her. I know this is not news to you with your experience on this site, but I feel that her feeling this way is just preposterous and I would like to have you take a very strong “no contact” stand with her. I hope my advise is not too strong considering the time I have been away.<P>My wife and I are still separated but things are going well right now and we are planning on getting back together soon.<P>Sailor<BR>