This is probably the hardest post that I have ever written on this board so far. Three and a half weeks ago, my W (peppermint) discovered that I had resumed my A with the OW. The A resumed in early July when I received a phone call from the OW. This was the first time I had really talked to her since I made a call to her in October to try and end our relationship. It was a poor attempt on my part and the A never was killed. <P>Peppermint and I started to work on rebuilding our marriage, and due to the hard work and dedication by my W, we were on our way back. But there always seemed to be a wall there and complete recovery seemed to be out of reach. Now that I can clearly look back, I see that there were things about the A that remained within me and I never told her. In other words, I kept a lie inside of me. That very fact began to eat away at recovery and we could never get past what was holding us back. I allowed myself to slip back into the darkness of lies and cheating. I went for something that, at the moment, made myself feel a little better. I will not go into details here because they are not important to the main fact that the A had never really ended. <P>About six weeks ago, I began to see the OW in a different perspective. Reality did began to set in and I knew that I was making a very big mistake. I came back to this board in an effort to get myself straight and try as best as I could to face reality. Well, reality is here. I have seen the TRUE side of the OW. Now I look in the mirror and think to myself, how could I ever get myself involved with someone like that.<P>The A has ended, peppermint and I are still together taking things one day at a time. Through all of this, she still loves me and believe it or not, I have always loved her. I did not do my part last year to help my W get past the hurt that I have caused. I really failed big time here. The first thing that I did was write a letter of no contact to the OW last week. Here is the letter that I wrote. The names have been changed.<P> September 8, 2000<P>OW,<P>I am sending you this letter to help all of us in beginning a healing process with both of our families. I want you to know that peppermint and I love each other very much and have agreed to work to rebuild our marriage into the relationship that it should be. I thought I was being your friend and trying to help you and be someone that you could talk to. It was never anymore than that to me. I am going to do the right thing and help Peppermint heal her broken heart. Your husband is a good man and he is someone that DOES love you very much. In time he will forgive you for the mistakes that you have made if you will find a way to let him. He and Peppermint deserve better treatment than we have given them and our children deserve to be together as a family.<P>From now on we are not going to have any contact with each other in any way. To do so will destroy any future we have with our families and I do not want this to happen. Peppermint has always been by my side and stood by me through thick and thin. Her honesty, love, devotion, and commitment are things that I value in her. We will work things out and I hope you and your Husband will recover from this also. You and I will have to mend ourselves because we are broken humans who have made mistakes, but I know when you are trying to find happiness you don’t have to go any further than your own home. Take care of your husband, he didn’t deserve any of this.<P>Firestorm<P>Peppermint and I have done a lot of praying to help us get through this and I set up an appointment tonight with Dr. Harley to began counseling. I am forwarding all my e-mail to her now, calling her every hour while I am at work, and I don't plan on going anywhere without her. These are things that I failed in the last time. We will not go this way again. I ask everyone here for their prayers and support as we begin to rebuild (again). You are all such wonderful people but I hate the fact that we all have to be here.<P>To Dylan, in your reply to peppermint, you were right about me. When I read your reply, it was another wake up call to get myself together. Thanks for being honest. When peppermint found out that the A had resumed, it was almost like a weight had been lifted off of me. I have put all of the facts on the table as best as I can recall. I have built a wall between myself and the OW and opened a window in the wall between myself and peppermint. We can do this.<P>fs<BR>

Firestorm....can I ask you a few questions?<P>Was Peppermint meeting your needs during the time after first dday? Were you meeting hers?<P>What do you mean when you say that the affair never really ended? After the first dday..did you tell the OW that there was no contact?<P>Can you say why this happened again? Or what you think brought it on?...were you just not happy with yourself or depressed over what you had done the first time?<P>This of course is my biggest fear and ever since I read Peppermints post I have had knots in my stomach. I have talked and talked to my husband to see if he is really happy....he says he is but it is so scary to know that this can happen to anyone.<P>Please keep us posted....it helps to see some insight from the other side.

{firestorm},<P>You have courage and strength...<P>You and peppermint will make it!<P> <P>Jim

Garden Girl<P>Yes, peppermint was meeting my needs during our rebuilding from first dday. I was the one that failed in helping her mend our marriage. It is true what she has said in the fact that I didn't think I had done a real bad thing. I did call the OW in October last year and tell her off somewhat. I told her not to call me anymore for any reason. <P>She found out my e-mail address from my D and began to send me jokes and cartoons in June. I did respond back by sending a few jokes back to her. The e-mail took on a personal nature when she sent me a message one day telling me about the way her H was treating her. I didn't respond to that one right away and she got upset with me because I didn't "Want to talk to her". She called a few days later and told me she had been getting some e-mail from and unknown person that made her feel threatned and asked me if I could find out who it was. From that point on I was back in it "AGAIN".<P>I had gotten to a point in our marriage where the recovery process had hit a wall. It seemed as though my involvment with OW last year would not go away. It was like picking at a scab so the wound would not heal. <P>I was feeling very low during the summer and when the OW called she made me feel better about myself. What I see now is that it was all fake. The OW had seen that peppermint an I were rebuilding and we were making it. She had seen us walking together holding hands. The fact that we were loving each other made her furious as I have recently found out. She was determined to GET BACK at peppermint and I was the one she used to do that. I began to see this before all of this came out four weeks ago. The OW was begining to hint that my W could find out about us. She asked me one day what would happen if peppermint found about about us talking now. From that day forward I knew that I had damaged our marriage again. My eyes were opened to the truth and I saw the real world and the OW for what she is.<P>The A never really ended from the first time because I did not let it die. I did not end it the proper way. The OW has left her H in the past couple of days. I have also found out by my own snooping that the OW was seeing another man besides me. I was being used but I put myself in that position for that to happen.<P>In rebuilding a marriage after an affair, I believe it is good to discuss what happened and why the affair happened. Details are not as important as the big picture is. But, at some point, the affair must be put in the past and love must be allowed to grow again. Dr. Harleys principles are written for a reason and they all must be followed in order to rebuild. If you and your H are both following these principles, you will be ok. Peppermint and I will survive this. I can feel it this time in my heart, and for the first time in over a year I feel like myself. I was the one that changed and I was the one that didn't do my part. Do not pick at the past. Do not love bust and by all means, talk, spend time together, and be positive. <P>NSR, thanks for your support and prayers. You are a blessing to all on this site and many thanks again to the effort that you put here.<P>fs

Firestorm:<P>This must be a bittersweet moment for you. On one hand, you must feel the relief of having everything in the open and the burden of of really ending the affair (no contact letter) a true reality. On the other, you and Peppermint are beginning true recovery and are both committed to rediscovering eachother and restoring your marriage after suffering a dangerous setback.<P>You have taken the necessary steps to insuring success by counseling through Steve Harley and following the prescribed method of the principles.<P>You have a lot of courage to do this and you must be deeply in love with your wife to want to completely give yourself to this process of recovery. By coming here on a regular basis and employing all the 'tools'<BR>(open e-mails, daily phone calls, counseling with Harley, etc), you will be gaining strength and giving others here hope.<P>The recent backsliding is frightening for some of us...it's a fear of ours that we may not be seeing things the way they really are in our own lives, or perhaps we are 'missing' or ignoring danger signs. <BR>I know I worry that I may be doing something wrong that may cause my husband to abandon our recovery and give into resuming contact. I hate to think that anything I may say or do, because I am human and in pain, will cause a downward spiral. <BR>It is like walking on eggshells, and I am hoping that what we are building is strong enough to take the highs and lows without either of us having the fear of the other betraying us with all we have learned from these experiences. <BR>I just wish we could all just focus on our spouses and unselfishly build a strong, honest and exclusive relationship with each other and not give into our egotistical whims.<P>You and Peppermint seem to have laid the proper foundation for success. Your honesty and devotion is testimony to your desire to completely give yourself to your wife and honor your vows. <BR>It takes a lot of courage and integrity to humble oneself as you have done and recommit and mean it, from the bottom or your heart and soul.<P>Stay strong, stay connected to each other and revel in the gift of another chance at the most supreme happiness God has given all of us...our marriages.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

Firestorm,<P>I just read your post to Garden Girl.<P>Isn't it incredible that you allowed someone so obviously manipulative and evil as the OW to make you 'feel better about yourself'?<P>Why is everyone in the sick society hell bent on 'feeling good about themselves'? Perhaps if we all focused on making our spouse feel good about themselves, we would automatically feel good about ourselves. You know, get back tenfold of what we give?<P>I raise my cup of coffee in a toast: Here's to Peppermint and Firestorm... to forgetting about ourselves and focusing on our other half. And letting the beauty unfold before us.<P>Catnip =^^=

firestorm:<P>One month ago today, my husband restarted his affair, and I caught them together at my home.<P>Since that date he has seen the real person the OW is and was getting to the point of ending the affair. Affairs are harder to end by going cold turkey. I feel that both you and my husband have ended it by a natural death and have some closure.<P>My husband is very committed to our marriage and is patient with me. This will be very hard on you and peppermint. <P>Best wishes and luck on yours and peppermint marriage.<P>Judy<BR>

Dear Firestorm:<P>Thank you for your honest, open, and sincere post.<P>If nothing else, it helps me understand more fully what I must do in my own situation. <P>Remember that Peppermint most likely will need EVEN MORE love, attention, affirmations of your true intent this time around than the first time. Please find it in your heart to give HER what she needs. Make this BE ABOUT PEPPERMINT and not yourself...put yourself aside and concentrate fully on making her whole again--and somewhere in this crazy process you'll find that by making her whole again, you'll be complete yourself.<P>Stay strong, stay focused, stay true.<P>Peace, prayers, and love to both of you on your journey of hope. Blessing, ~Marie

To catnip, bighope, and ohmy_marie,<P>Thank you so much for your wonderful post. I sit here at work with tears in my eyes to know that people that are in the same situation that my W is in could be so nice to me when I have done the one thing that hurts someone more than anything. What I am feeling right now is far better than any good feeling the OW ever gave me. Many, many thanks to all of you here. You are such beautiful people.<P>If anyone ever needs to ask me a question about my affair, how I got there, how I felt, how I ended it in my mind, I will try to find an answer and respond. If I can serve as nothing else other than a bad example then that is what I will be. In the coming months I will post my feelings and thoughts in an effort to understand myself and maybe help shed some light to those that have been betrayed as to why things like this happen. One thing I do know, through this while thing, I still loved my W. That love is still there and it never went away. That love I value more than anything on the face of this earth.<P>Again, thanks to all of you for being so nice to a person that doesn't deserve it.<P><BR>....fs

Firestorm,<BR>You are far from the only person here who stands as a bad example. No, I'm not pointing fingers, except at myself. <P>You have a wonderful loving wife who will be your partner in rebuilding your marriage. Plan A her, do the 4 rules of successful marriage and you will see healing happen before your eyes.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

Firestorm, you made me cry this morning. I've read posts on this board from people who don't believe this stuff works. I started to doubt myself. Because it ONLY works when BOTH spouses are working together as a team and both want to rebuild the marriage.<P>I see in you what I've been hoping my H would realize and do himself. I know you two can make it. Keep up the good work. I'm so happy fo you and Peppermint. And I will pray for you and your family all the time. Thank god you saw the light. I'm so happy for you.<P>------------------<BR>Lost Soulmate<P>"Character is doing what's right, when no one is looking"

WE are 7 post dday. Do you feel that I shouldnt bring it up at all? (A). It just seems that we still need to talk sometimes as part of the recovery. It is a LB for him though......ugh...this is so hard.<P>Did you feel that Peppermint kept re-hashing it so that made you feel crappy? And thats why you were open to another A?<P>We are folowwing the rules and I am meeting his needs....but it is so hard to not LB at all...I am only human LIke this morning something he said made me feel un-easy so I brought it up and it turned into a spat. What should I do if I am feeling scared or suspicuios? THose are the times that I bring it up and I dont feel its fair for me to hold that in...sigh.<P>Thanks...

oooops..thats 7 mos post dday. Sorry about the typos.

To Garden Girl and Firestorm and all:<P>Sometimes I think this thing about 'lovebusting' is a way for the betrayer/wayard spouse to buffer himself against fallout from betrayed spouse's pain and justified anger...<P>Sometimes they tend to use "don't you dare love bust me on this or you'll catapult me into the arms of the OW again" is manipulation and disrespect at it's fullest.<P>Using the Harley principles and Phil McGraw's prescriptions to recovery, it is important to know the difference between cleansing the soul, coming to terms with the betrayal and love busting.<P>Simply stating how you feel and asking questions in order to heal yourself should not be construed as a love bust...and shame on these wimpy betrayers that are more concerned with their own comfort than the hurt, pain, humiliation their actions have caused their innocent, damaged spouse. I mean, come on now. It's time for damage control. It's time for betrayers to put away their own selfishness and sacrifice themselves for their wounded spouse in an effort to heal the marriage. <P>This kind of inflicted pain doesn't come cheap...there is a retribution of sorts. It doesn't have to be mean, vicious or entirely painful...it can be the meeting of two souls and hearts in each other's best interests. A deep and profound growing experience. No one said it would be painless...nothing worthwhile is.<P>There used to be a cheesy detective show called Baretta on TV...in the beginning of the show, there was a saying about "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime".<P>Well, the crime is committed, now put in the time.<P>I can't even apololize for my irritation at these spouses (like Garden Girl's) who insist on controlling and manipulating the damaged spouse into thinking anything they say will be a love bust, when all they want to do is heal as quickly as possible. This walking on eggshells is for the birds.<P>Snarl, snap, growl. Hiss.<P>Catnip =^^=

catnip and Garden Girl,<P>There are ways to discuss the affair in an open and honest atmosphere. There are times when the BS need to vent at their WS. We all need to understand all of this. One thing peppermint has always said is that "I" am/was her best friend and the one person that she could always talk to. I need to be here for her to talk to and to do it without getting defensive about the affair. <P>Talking in a calm manner about the affair is not love busting. During our first rebuilding attempt, I did not want to talk about the affair. One reason, I had not been completely honest and I did try to protect myself. But the other night each of us opened up and imaginary box for the other person to put all of the confessions in. Then the box could be sealed and put on the shelf and the lies put away. We have been able to talk more openly about the events of the affair. I have found out, this is not love busting, this is really love building. <P>True, at some point in time we must put these events behnid us and move on and grow our relationship further and better. That doesn't mean we will ever forget it. That time is not now. She does not have to walk on egg sgells with me and she hasn't done that. I do know she has held back sometimes, because what she wanted to say would serve no purpose.<P>I think you and your H will both know when the time is right to put his actions behind you. Everyone of us are different. Does he ever bring it up anymore? Does he ever want to talk about things that happened? Give him that chance just to see if he will talk about it. I did feel like we were picking at a scab, but I see now why. I was not completely honest, especially about my feelings and major things that happened in the A. That was one reason that we could not get over the hump.<P>I will be honest here from a betrayers point. Sometimes I will not say the right thing that fits into the way the BS think I/we should act and feel. But, this is why I am here, to learn to be a better person and H. If I don't see ar say things in the right way, please don't be afraid of walking on egg shells when addressing me. I am here, like all, to learn to love and protect our husbands and wives.<P>fs

firestorm,<P>I think you know people here are supportive of all those on both sides of this.<P>It is true that for us BS, finding it is back on or never ended is our worst nightmare.<P>I hear you saying you were never totally honest with Peppermint about the A? And you have been now, holding nothing back?<P>My h hit me with the worst confession of my life on d-day, but he told me everything about the A and that he had another six month A the year before. It was better to have it all on the table.<P>Are you truly clear on the no contact? Did it not occur to you the first time OW called you that you should tell Peppermint?<P>OW only tried once after the letter to contact my h. He told me that same day and it built up the trust in me. It hasn't happened again.<P>One other thing - it seems important to you that you have seen OW for the manipulative person she is. When my h and OW broke contact, she was wonderful. Despite that, he has torn her out of his heart and our recovery is going great. We sometimes talk about seeing her just so he can see her more realistically, this side of recovery. It doesn't seem worth the risk that she may pursue him again.

Firestorm???

Schizzo,<P>Sorry I havn't replied until now. I just came out of counceling with the assistance counsler where I work. I thought I had really opened my eyes as to what the other woman was. After I walked out of the counslers office my eyes are really wide open now. I don't know what to say about myself other than I was really stupid. If the OW ever comes back in my life I believe I will kill her.<P>She never wanted anything other than to break up our marriage and hurt my wife. You ask me if I am serious about this, OH YES. I will post more about my appointment. Thanks for your response and questions. Please keep them coming.<P>fs

Firestorm,<P>My Only words are Good luck and may God be with you and your family.

Firestorm:<P>How are you doing today? Hang in there; peppermint needs you. <P>All the best. --HBC