I've only posted a few times here, but I've been lurking for a while. Some of you know my story, but here's the sad ending.<P>My W finally said she wants a divorce. She had been holding off while she got a little therapy and time away to clear her head. Well, it never really cleared!<P>She's decided she doesn't want to be married anymore. She claims the OM has nothing to do with her decision, but we all know how that goes, don't we?<P>I've e-mailed her some of the threads from here, and she insists that her thing with the OM is "different," and that this stuff "doesn't apply to her situation." <P>The fog is so thick it may never clear. I told her this guy has no morals, since he's already gone after another man's wife, but she insists he's "not really like that," and I "don't know the whole story." As if there were more information that would make infidelity okay!<P>Anyway, I asked her point blank if it was over and she said yes. So from here I guess I go to the D/D board. In a way, I'm relieved, since now there's no doubt as to the outcome.<P>Thanks so much to those who gave me support and advice. I still believe in marriage...just not with my wife! <P>Now, the funny thing is, there's a girl who works part-time at my job. She's being really, really nice to me, making sure she gets scheduled to work with me, and even told me she "really likes" me. She's really sweet, is well read, speaks several languages...did I mention she's a model for the Ford Agency?<P>I think I'll be okay.

Hey Guy,<P>I've been a lurker, too. I know how it is to become so despondent that you don't want to talk about it anymore--but you still want to listen to your friends.<P>But I had to reply to you, if just to say that I am sorry that you've come to the end of the road. But like you said, you will be OK! You've done your best and it's made you stronger and smarter for the next lucky girl to fall in love with you. What a treasure she'll have!!<P>And--if it's in the cards--good luck with Miss Ford, too. A girl who speaks languages can speak the language of love--I know that!!<P>(Miss Kitty was a Chevy dealer.)<P>Take good care of yourself, and have happier days!!

cjack:<P>My wife said that she wanted a divorce several times during her affair. Of course, I never listened to her before her affair---why the heck would I start now??? <P>Just because she's said this is what she wants---that should have no effect on what you do. If you believe in your marriage, you should do your best at Plan A for a period of 6 months (more or less). Then separate using a Plan B (no contact) separation for an additional 18 months. After that time, you'll probably feel very little love for your wife, and divorce will be less traumatic.<P>One explicit thing that is involved in this 2-year period is that "Miss Ford" is completely out-of-bounds. During this period you will be EXTREMELY NEEDY and very susceptible to affairs. These relationships will cause you to pitch your plan to save your marriage---you should stay completely away from opposite sex friendships during this period.<P>That's what you do if you believe in marrage...<P>I've forgotten, cjack. Where are you in this process? How long have you plan A'ed, and is your wife living with you?

Oh, and if this any consolation to you. . .<P>I was like your wife many years ago. I found a guy that I liked better than my husband. Then I asked him for a divorce, no fooling around with all this romantic affair stuff. I liked the guy, called and told X, asked for a divorce, and he granted it to me.<P>Thought we could stay friends, and I called my X all the time to talk, especially after Prince Charming left the picture, which was a week after the D. Oh, I didn't want to reunite, I was free and had the field to play, but he was still the one I leaned on. <P>Long after I was remarried to my present husband, I would write and call. Well, I had the little one to consider, too, but I felt a lot of guilt and emotion towards my X. I had this stupid idea that maybe he would even pick up and move with me in all my military adventures, so that I could see our kid. He didn't bend to my wishes, but he was still polite.<P>One day, in the throes of a fight with H about 4 or months into the marriage, I called X and tearfully pleaded "Can I come back now? Please?"<P>He didn't say no, but he meant no.<P>I don't think that some marriages are ever really "over" until you get to the point where the guy that got burned moves on and makes things happy for himself. The guy who left never, ever really gets over what they did, and that's the truth. It's part of having a conscience. They are growing as a person, too.<P>It's sad what it has to take to grow, however.

cjack,<P>Sorry to see that it has come to this. But have faith, you know OM better than your W. She will be messed over by him soon enough. If you want it you will get another chance.<P>I realize that the best revenge would be to have the "ford" girl fall madly in love with you and you to tell current W, to buzz off, but revenge usually has an awful way of getting out of hand.<P>So think about this, you know your W hasn't a clue, so there is no more reason to believe that she knows your marriage is over, than to believe that she and OM are "just friends".<P>Think on this decision, if there is no love left, then it is time to move on. If there is some love left, Plan B. You have done Plan A for awhile, if memory serves me correctly.<P>In any event think long and hard about this.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

cjack...<P>Listen to my successful twin brogther... <B>K</B>!!!<BR>Darn... he's always thinking what I am... <P>One more thing...<BR>...since divorces can be unstoppable frieght trains...<P>...If you need to <B>protect</B> yourself legally (and/or financially)... I usually make the recommendation of finding a <B>good</B> attorney. A good place to start off is at the <A HREF="http://lawyers.martindale.com/marhub/form/by.html" TARGET=_blank>Martindale-Hubbell Lawyer Search</A> site. Do a search within your county... look for only "family law" specialists(>80% in divorce/custody/etc.)... make sure they do a lot of "family law committee work"... if they know the judges all the better... You can normally find a few that will give initial counseling free of charge.<BR><A HREF="http://www.uslaw.com" TARGET=_blank>USLaw.com</A> (an alternative search site)<P> <P>Jim

K, I know you're trying last-minute CPR, but I've come to terms with what's going on. About 10 months ago, she told me she thought our marriage was over, she wasn't "In love" with me anymore, wasn't happy, didn't want to be married, etc. She told me she had doubts about the marriage from the day we walked down the short aisle in Vegas. She describes it as "getting on a ride and then realizing you want to get off as soon as it started."<P>I went into Plan A (though I didn't know what it was at the time), and thought everything would be okay. Then, around the beginning of July, she got in touch with an old hs girlfriend who lived in Vegas. She went to visit, and her friend said "you'll never guess who lives here!" Old hs friend who she always wanted to hook up with. After 14 years, the attraction was still there, and they got together, despite the fact that he was married. The next week, W's company sent her on a business trip...to Vegas! The following weekend she went there yet again, and came home to tell me she wanted a divorce. I found out about the A a week later.<P>She's been moved out for a few weeks now. Plan B drove her away even further. She's headed to Vegas again next month, and has indicated she's moving there after the first of the year. She's totally given up on the marriage. I've figured out that no amount of love can bring her back. For now, I have to let her go out on her own and learn the ugly truth. She just doesn't get what real love and marriage are about, and she doesn't want to learn right now.<P>So divorce seems to be the only option. It's what she wants, and I'll respect her wishes. Maybe someday she'll figure out what she had, maybe I'll be available, maybe, maybe, maybe...<P>As for the supermodel, she's just a friend right now. If I have a snowball's chance in hell with her, I wouldn't even think of dating her until I'm officially divorced. I'm not looking for a relationship, or another marriage, or anything other than someone pretty to hang on my arm a few nights a month. I know I have to heal before I get involved with anyone, and I will be very, very cautious about who I will give my heart to.<P>I believe in the marriage. My wife doesn't. I have tried to change her mind, but a marriage where only one person wants it to survive is a tough thing. I've tried to save it, I've held up my end, honored my vows, and given it my all. She doesn't want to give it anything.<P>So here I am. I'll be working on myself from here on out, trying to figure out who I am apart from my W. If she ever decides to come back, I'll be a better person, at least.

Big thanks to Bernzini for the kind words. I have a feeling that, in a few years, I'll get a phone call much like the one you made to your ex. I wonder what I'll say?<P>Jim, you're always there with great advice and support. Surprisingly, it should be an easy, uncontested divorce. She's said she wants nothing from me, and on the papers (we've had them filled out for 6 weeks now), she asks for no money, no alimony, no child support, nothing. We've already divided up the "stuff" we accumulated, without any arguments at all. In fact, no lawyers are going to be involved. I've moved what little money I have into accounts she can't touch just in case.<P>JL, the hardest thing is that there IS some love left. She claims she still loves me, but she doesn't want to be married to me anymore. For myself, my love bank is down to a zero balance, and it's time to close the account. I've seen what kind of person she is. When she comes over to drop off her D, all I see is someone to whom a drunken night 14 years ago and 3 hot weekends together mean more than "In the presence of almighty God..."<P>Deep in my heart, I still love her, but I don't really like her anymore. This experience has shown me a side of her that I always ignored. Self-absorbed, impatient, argumentative, rude, etc. I used to make excuses for her personality: "She's rough around the edges, but inside she's really a good person."<P>Now I've found out she's not really a good person at all.<P>I need to find someone who believes the same things I do about love and marriage, not someone who runs for divorce court at the first sign of trouble.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In a way, I'm relieved, since now there's no doubt as to the outcome.<P>I've figured out that no amount of love can bring her back<P>So divorce seems to be the only option.<P>It's what she wants, and I'll respect her wishes.<P>I believe in the marriage. My wife doesn't<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wow, you know exactly what your wife is thinking & feeling.<P>This isn't about what she wants. It's about what you want. If you want marriage, stay. If you do not want to be married to her, then go. You do NOT know what she is thinking or feeling (except for what she tells you). But then again, "She's decided she doesn't want to be married anymore. She claims the OM has nothing to do with her decision, but we all know how that goes, don't we?"<P>Do not base your decisions on her actions/words. Base them on what you are feeling inside for her. If you do not love her, move on.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><P>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 15, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 15, 2000).]

cjack, I agree with Chris, took the words right out of my mouth.<P>I think most of us don't much like our spouses right now, but have enough love left to hang on to the hope that they can change. Only time will tell.<P>Not being a guy, I don't get this: "I'm not looking to date for a long time, just to have someone pretty hanging on my arm a few nights a week."<P>That's not dating???

CJack:<P>One more little thing that I want to add from my personal experience--<P>Okay, in my 1st marriage, I asked my husband for a divorce, like, a hundred times. I even said that we could live together in the same house at Ft Ord, just as long as he divorced me! Shoot! That was even to my advantage! Built in babysitter for me! (I CANNOT believe what a selfish, hateful witch I was--I am really not this way anymore!!!)<P>I would have never filed, not in a million years. It was all talk. 100% of it. Oh, I meant it, and I thought that I wanted it, but like a kid that sees a cool toy in the store, I had to have my way.I had to have it now!!<P>He DID file. He bought my BS. You know what? I remember the day I was served with the papers--I remember the deputy coming to my house and asking me to sign for them, and I felt like I was being clubbed with a ball bat! I went to my platoon sergeant, who dutifully counseled me. Then he said "From now on, you be careful what you ask for. You might just get it. . .Crazy privates I get these days!" <P>Had he never filed for divorce, I would not have divorced him. We would still be married (although this is not necessarily a good thing, in hindsight, but the principle. . .)<P>I think I told you once before--if she wants a divorce, then by all means, let HER do the dirty work.<P>I know that someone on this thread, too, advised you to protect yourself legally--definately do it. Have a good lawyer ready to go (easier said than done--I hate lawyers . . .bad experiences!)<P>But let her do it. She buttered her bread, now she can eat it.<P>I know you are tired of the bull and being jerked around--by all means, you deserve to be tired. You are probably done being in "love" with this woman. ( But you still love her, deep in your heart.)You have been ground underneath her heel. But you can forgive.<P>But as all this proves, sometimes the way people FEEL does not make what they DO right. You have to DO the right thing.<P>Protect yourself, but don't file!!! (If you really believe in marriage.)<P>Just my advise, speaking from my own experience.

Chris, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. Here's why: She's told me she was never 100 percent committed to the marriage. She was never happy being married to me, and had been looking for a way out for a long time. Her subconcious arranged an exit affair for her. She never really had the gumption to get out of the marriage on her own, so she needed something to push her over the edge. A trigger, in effect. Her subconcious was saying "if I'm unfaithful, then there will be a reason to end the marriage." To her, our marriage was a prison, the OM was the key.<P>No matter what I feel, I cannot force her to stay married to me. I can't force her to feel love for me. At this point, refusing to divorce her would just push her even farther away. The old saying goes "If you love someone, set them free..." <P>That's what I'm doing here. I've expressed to her in I don't know how many ways that I don't want a divorce. She doesn't care. Even Harley will tell you that there are some marriages that cannot be saved. I've come to realize that I may be in that group.<P>schizzo: I have no intention of dating the supermodel until the ink is dry on the divorce papers. I don't even know if she would go out with me! Let me make this clear: I said I wouldn't date anyone until after the divorce is final. When that day comes, if she's available, I might go out with this girl. Then, when the Netherworld freezes over and they build a ski resort there, I might get a second date! <P>Really, I just mentioned her because she's the first woman (other than my W) that I've had any kind of feelings for in the last 5 years. I can honestly say I haven't been the least bit attracted to anyone but my W. <BR>Now that my life with her appears to be over, its kind of like "wow, there's a whole world out here!" I'm just surprised at the fact that someone that beautiful might be interested in little old me!<P>Bernzini: She had said that she couldn't get away from work long enough to file the papers. We need to file soon, or we'll be filing joint tax returns 2 years from now. So, like the nice guy I am, I offered to take the papers to the courthouse. When I read your post, I immediately called her and said "sorry honey, this is YOUR baby...you file." Thanks for stopping me from making another in a long line of mistakes!

cjack,<P>I'm not usually online on Sunday, but I'm feeling pretty sick and h is being sooo good with the kids.<P>I still agree with Chris. Great marriages have to be built from the ground up.<P>So she said she has wanted out for a long time? What does this say to you, that you are the "wrong one"? How about if she never was in-love, but you came to realize you really could have a great marriage together if you had built on some of these principles?<P>My h said the same thing to me, except we didn't get to the divorce part. I went into a full plan A, and he decided to give us another try.<P>I held onto the fact that IF by some miracle I could have a great marriage with him, that is what I wanted.<P>And now we are getting there. I have since realized that while I never stopped loving him, it was not because he had filled my love bank when we dated. We never had done well in meeting each other's needs. When the kids came, he neglected me in so many ways (he travelled so much, I felt like a single mom, but it was worse when he was here). And I shut down and stopped meeting his.<P>Like many others on this board: 1st he decided to try again. Then about 60 days of withdrawal when I was doing most of the work. Now, ten months later, we are living by the 4 rules and it keeps getting better and better. It can happen.

I hope you're feeling better soon. I've been sick since Thursday! I'm actually at work (the only place I have internet access), and I'm doing a great job at avoiding doing my work!<P>Yes, great marriages need to be built from the ground up. Our marriage was built on a rather shaky foundation that has since crumbled. You see, she was in the throes of extracting herself from an extrememly abusive relationship when I met her. He repeatedly raped her, beat her senseless too many times to count, verbally tore her down every morning before she went to work, and even held a gun to her head on occasion. When we met, they had been broken up for nearly a year, but she was actually afraid to go out with me, thinking he might do something. He had always said he would kill her if she ever found someone else. <P>Anyway, I was the exact opposite of this guy. I built her up, told her how beautiful she was, encouraged her in her career, the whole nine yards. <P>When I met her, she was a slightly overweight barfly with no self-esteem, working for 7 bucks an hour and cashing food stamps. She desperately needed someone to prove her own self-worth. I was the guy.<P>Now, she's making about 3 times as much as she ever made, has a fantastic body, and no need of me, apparently!<P>Remember when you were a kid, and you'd find a wounded bird in the yard? You take it in, nurse it back to health, and then when it's all better, it flies off without so much as a "thank you very much." That's what I feel our relationship was. She was deeply wounded by this other guy, and I was there to re-build her self image. She said she married me not because she was 100 percent certain that she loved me, but because it "seemed like the right thing to do."<P>Now that she's healed her wounds from that relationship, she's basically decided that she doesn't need me anymore, and wants her freedom to do whatever she wants. <P>I've told her that I want to start from square one. Dating each other, moving back in after a few months, maybe even getting new rings and renewing our vows. In effect starting our marriage over from the start with new rules and a new appreciation of the different people we have become.<P>She's not having any of that. The freedom she's felt since moving out has cemented her resolve. The divorce is like a speeding train that's picking up even more speed.<P>I think the only way to salvage the marriage is to kill it off. Give her the freedom she desires, then maybe 6 months from now she'll miss what we had. If she stays in town, and we stay in touch, maybe there's a chance that we could get back together. It would be tricky, but it is possible.

CJack--(sorry, it's me again. I know, I'm getting to be a pain.)<P>I am not really telling you what to do here. I am just trying to break it out for you what your wife might be thinking and/or feeling here. It may have some impact on your actions.<P>I have lived the life of a wayward wife--yes, different than a wayward husband. I think that marriage is a different ballgame to a woman. Usually when a woman starts cheatin, that means that she sees no hope. Doesn't feel loved. Like it was wrong from the beginning. I felt that way with H #1.<P>Your story makes a lot of sense. You did not fall in love under the right circumstances--you were needed, not "loved." And now you feel like you've done your sacred duty to bring her back to life and set her free.<P>She may not think this way down the road soon though. I know that I didn't.<P>I'll change the subject from me and tell you about a friend that I had in the army, and maybe this can illustrate a little better.<P>Okay, my friend Cindy was a beautiful blonde woman in a man's world. She acted like a blonde. She was crazy and extroverted. Everyone gravitated to her--she was extremely pretty, kind-hearted, very fun, silly, an excellent soldier (a female air-assault instructor) but she was also flighty. A flirt.<P>She was married to Alan, who was gorgeous. He looked like he should have been on the cover of GQ. He had it all. He was a Ranger, but on the flip side, he was also very gentle, kind-hearted, quiet, even content to keep house for Cindy (He made cookies!! And flower-gardened! If that isn't sweet!) Any girl would kill to be married to him. It seems that Alan was TOO nice.<P>Cindy had one little problem that she brought into marriage: she loved to be loved. By anyone. And everyone. And in the army, when there is a ratio of--what?--50 dudes to every girl, there are endless possibilities.<P>Finally, the day she had a wild affair with a married man (not unusual for her)in our company and started a huge chain of events, he packed up and left. And she said "C ya. You're nice but I didn't want to be married anyway." All of us were thinking that she was absolutely out of her tree. Not only did she diss her husband, but she claimed to be madly in love with this married geek at the risk of her career.<P>In a few short weeks, the married geek was gone. The husband was gone. And she claimed to feel no remorse. She said "Well, I couldn't stay faithful to him, so I guess that it wasn't much of a marriage. And I guess fooling around was just what it took to fix things." She told me: "On my wedding day, I was sitting there thinking 'What the heck are you DOING?' It wasn't meant to be." (Not her first wedding day, I have to mention.) She continued to blatantly play the field. Oh, but she did go to counseling--she thrived on it!--cause she knew she was "messed up." She liked being messed up and going to counseling--just someone else to listen to her wild stories.<P>Gosh, it was several months down the road when things started to hit her hard. She was a good friend of mine, so I saw what she was going through. For a while, I thought that she had forgotten her husband (he had moved to another state.) she never talked about him. She talked a lot about other guys, though. Then, all of the sudden, she started to pine for Alan.<P>She began saying "What did I do? I just lost the best thing that ever happened to me?" Mind you, this was almost a year after he left. I don't think this was a sudden decision, either. It was something that she didn't want to admit to all that time.<P>They talked on the phone quite often, and she finally begged for forgiveness with all her heart, asked for one more chance. She even went to see him once or twice.<P>Unfortunately, he had shut the door. This is what he said: "I still love you--I still feel the same as I always did. I just have to divorce you for ME." And he did, though he took a while to do it. <P>I remember our company had to put the post Halloween spooky house together at the post school. There were all these little kids running around, being little kids. And myself, being a mom, took no real notice of them. But when I went to find Cindy, she was hiding in the bathroom sobbing.<P>"You don't know how it hurts to see little kids. He always told me that we would have lots of babies together, and I don't know of another man that I would want them with." This was almost two years after he had left.<P>I lost track of my friend--I guess she is still a professional woman somewhere, doing her professional thing. Last I heard, she had never remarried. She had completely changed in personality. <P>But the whole point of my story--you usually get what you ask for. Sometimes you ask for things you really shouldn't have, and it sucks when you get then.<P>It takes patience, time. Give your wife some time, yet. Yes, let her go if that's what she wants, but let her know where you'll be at and tell her that she's welcome. Don't shut the door on her. Leave a light burning.<P>It could be a while, but I'll bet that someday she'll be back.

Dear Cjack,<P>I believe that whichever route you take, you need to be healed before you can begin anew.<P>I have been reading 'Forgive and Forget - healing the hurts you do not deserve" by Lewis B. Smedes. The preacher decribed in great clarity the essence of forgiveness and how that can release us from the bitterness or rejection, etc. that can take root in our lives. <P>I am not reading into your situation when I am recommending the book. My great friend bought the book, read through it despite a very hectic work and domestic schedule, to coach me back to mental health (and physical health, too). My friend realised intuitively that I would not go looking for books at such a raw and zombie state in my life and that reading was the last thing in my mind. I had also stopped reading the bible, and my great faith and trust in God went dark and I was unable to worship even in church.<P>I read that you said 'the Almighty God', and I want to relate my healing process with God's help to make me whole again. If I may use your analogy of the little 'broken' bird - we are broken inside of us and we need to be healed. <P>Although I turned to God from the beginning, I started to stall as the horrific truth of my WS long term infidelity hit me (2 years' A). I found I couldn't even pray although I went to ministry and counselling. I seemed to recover for short bouts of time before I plunged into depths of despair and started physically beating my WS. I could not control myself. I frightened myself.<P>This past weekend I was encouraged and reminded by many great friends to go to a 4 unit long healing ministry that lasted 3 days. The minister has been used very successfully by Jesus to heal both physical and emotional and spiritual sicknesses. I have never been to one before but I knew deep down I was in trouble because I cannot control my rage and I had very bad and angry thoughts of people, including my lovely baby (I have confessed to family and friends that I cannot trust myself to be alone with baby because I felt tremendous anger at baby {I have live-in help now}. My old happy, sane and real self has been overtaken by a monster that I never even knew was in me. Happily, it wasn't me. It was the soulish ties that my WS had when he 'became one with the OW aka a nymphomaniac banshee'. The A was started on a pissed drunk night when banshee coworker got into WS bed. She blackmailed and threatened him to continue the affair. It ended when she knived him and landed in jail. Through the course of the few months since A was exposed, I started thinking and saying and doing things that startled WS because of the similarity of the disgusting nature of the actions. It ranged from intention to harm my baby to strangling and ripping off my WS's clothes?! <P>We were so broken. Anyway, at the healing ministry, I was released of my emotional trauma, and when I returned home, I felt a sense of great peace and happiness and well being. The anger is gone (and I am finally going to cut my nails!). My mother was healed of a physical ailment that the pastor was not even told of - he simply put his hands on my mother's knee.<P>I believe that God can make us whole again and banish the spirits of anger, lust (esp if WS sleeps with someone who had loose morals or prostitute or who had slept with someone of loose morals), pain, bitterness, rejection, etc..<P>Many miracles have taken place to reassure me that Jesus is omnipotent and that there is eternal life. Please seek help in this area so that come what may, you will be able to have a great purpose in life. <P>If you want, let me know, I will pray that you receive a real and truthful healer to help you through this. <P>You can also read books by Derek Prince, Max Lucado, Watchman Nee, and other goldly men.