LiL,<P>At the risk of starting a debate, I will only say you may feel this way about him, but he only sees actions. You basically chose OM over him as you said. He has proven to be a much deeper man than you thought and so you are conflicted, but you have not chosen him as yet. In fact, my guess is that he feels that he is still in the game only by virtue of being married to him. He is doing his best, but it isn't clear that is good enough.<P>Very discouraging LiL.<P>You said yourself, you were gone. You had made the choice, and your H lost. He was not as attractive to you as OM. So while you may be thinking he is an incredible man and very attractive, your actions to date don't support that. If it was really true, you would not be working on making a decision about saving your marriage. The decision would have already been made.<P>You see, that is why so many people here get confused with your posts. Most of your post just now, sounded like you are in recovery. However, you haven't decided on which man to recover with yet. It is confusing to those of us with such sage advice . <P>Keep posting Lil, we, the readers, will eventually understand this better and be able to give you good advice. Until then hang with us as we learn.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

LIL, SS4N, All<P>I don't know why I started lurking on this thread, but oh well, here I am, I'm hooked. I know that I have posted to you both before, heck, I think I've posted to everyone here at one time or another. . .<P>I cried reading this whole thread, because to me, I'm reading a true love story. . .The bottom line, at least as I read it, and correct me if I'm wrong, you both love each other - don't put a tag on it, don't stereotype it, you love each other. . .<P>LIL - I think you may know that I, too, am a WS, so I know - to some extent what you are going through. . .yea, I feel illogical at times, confused at other times. . .The one thing that has given me focus through those times of confusion have been my H.<P>I won't go into, she's doing this, he's doing that, and the debate over what's right, what's wrong, what's fair, what's unfair. . .You love each other, to some degree. . .don't quantify it. . .Grab a hold of it. . .don't let that go. . .<P>Past actions are past actions. . .you cannot change them. . .but starting today, you can make changes. . .if you want to. . .and sometimes fear of the unknown prevents us from taking action. . .right or wrong. . .something needs to be done, you both know it. . .I guess my thing is. . .our time here is very limited. . .you make the most of what you have. . .I think you both could do some things to at least try to get on the path to recovery. . .<P>There are no gaurantees in life, sometimes, you have to take a leap of faith, do something not because it "feels" right, but because it is the right thing to do. . .<P>You both mention about trying to work things out. . .LIL - you're unsure. SS4N, you have tried and are losing hope. But the point is, you can change all that today. . .LIL - why not give your H a year. . .move back home, end the A. . .try to really work on your marriage. . .SS4N - well, yes, he met someone who was fulfilling his needs for a little while, but he loves and wants you. . .from his message on this site to you, you have to realize that. . .<P>I know things are cloudy in the fog, but someone is there guiding the way, have faith, take a chance that things can and will work out with your H. . .move back home and try. . .your H wants and needs you there.<P>You know when I told my H about the affair, I was still very unsure of my feelings,a nd I wrote him the following. . .it's kind of long, but maybe you'll read it anyway. . .<P><BR>"Dear H - When I was younger, my parents used to take us to the beach for vacation.<BR>I loved being out in the sun, swimming, and playing in the waves.<BR>But, one of my favorite things to do was to build sand castles.<BR>I would build these really elaborate castles, the kind that are tall with many rooms,<BR>even moats and secret entrances. I used to try and build the castle as tall as I could<BR>stand. But to build a really good sand castle, you had to get pretty close to the water,<BR>or the sand would not be moist enough to stick together.<P>So, I’d take my bucket down by the water, and I’d sit right in the sand<BR>building this elaborate sand castle. I would even get water and drizzle it <BR>around the castle walls to make the walls look like stucco. I would dig and<BR>build for hours. I would even ask my brother and the other kids on the beach to help me.<P>But, as far away from the water as I built my castle, inevitably the tide would <BR>come closer and closer. To prevent my castle from being swept away, I would<BR>even try to build trenches so that the water wouldn’t overpower the castle walls.<BR>As hard as I tried, I couldn’t stop the water from rushing in. Even with the help <BR>of my brother and my friends, I could never stop the tide and save my castle.<BR>As a kid, I guess this is pretty upsetting. But, I’d pick up my bucket, go home,<BR>and build another castle the next day.<P>I guess what I’m trying to tell you by this story is that I don’t want to stop<BR>building sand castles. I don’t want the bad times to overpower the good times.<BR>While sometimes I feel like the tide is rushing in so fast that I feel like<BR>I am the one being swept away, drowning, I promise not to stop trying to<BR>protect what we have together. I promise to try again, and build an even<BR>stronger castle tomorrow. I know I have a lot of things to work on, to build<BR>your trust, to build a new life together, but I’ll keep trying. Every time I see you,<BR>I see the tide rushing over my castle, and I know how badly I have failed you.<BR>But, I’ll keep building trenches - if you’ll help me."<P>I guess my point is I was willing to take action, to try not just by my words, but by my actions. . .Try building - together, the only thing you have to lose is each other, and aren't you already doing that. Take care, you're in my thoughts and prayers.<P><BR>

SKM, JL, everyone else....<P>Just wanted to say thanks for all the replies/help/opinions, etc..<P>L_I_L and I did start out as a classic true love story. I still believe we are supposed to be together. We had a fairy tale beginning, a whirl wind romance, and a beautiful wedding. We opened up to each other and talked endlessly in the beginning. A lot of that had to do with the fact that that was all we COULD do, due to distance. We became incredibly close. She knows things about me that no one else does. I have grown a lot as a person because of our love. We were not just partners and lovers, she became my best friend. <P>Somewhere along the way, when the reality of jobs, laundry, housework, etc set in, we forgot how to communicate. The fairy tale was not there anymore. Both of us had stints where we spent WAY too much time online. I was not a very good house helper. We got into a downward spiral where each of us wasn't meeting the others ENs...some knowingly, some not, but it got out of control. Couple that with me going to a shift job, where L_I_L had a lot of free time at home alone, and someone stepped in to fill her needs. I'm not even sure she knew her needs were unfilled, until the A came along. One positive thing.....we always did share most of our recreational time. We always played together, and rarely ever were apart, only if our jobs required it. Even then we would sometimes sneak to spend the night together if we were fairly close to home. <P>We have both talked since the discovery about this. We know that both of us have contributed to problems in our marriage. I was working hard on fixing my shortcomings, before the actual discovery, and before I came here. (Believe it or not, I CAN do laundry without being told, do dishes, etc!) I was Plan A'ing before I knew what that was! I still have hopes that we can repair our marriage. As soon as L_I_L can break with the OM, I know we can get through this. I just hope I am strong anough to stay in Plan A...we tried Plan B for a week or so once, and it sucks! But if I have to do it to save us, I will.<P>I love my wife. She has a huge heart, she is pretty, she is smart, and I always feel just a little better when we are together. If I didn't want her back, and wasn't willing to really work on myself, and our marriage, I wouldn't be here! <P>Thanks again, all!<P>SS4N

Late to the party here... but a few thoughts -<P>The whole time I was reading this thread, the phrase "leap of faith" was in my head (apparently SKM & I think alike! ). <P>What I see here is two people who are basically really good together, who have run into some common marital behaviors & troubles, lost touch with each other and with The Marriage (the third entity here), and are suffering the consequences. Just like nearly everybody in the world! Happened to me and DuncanMac much the same way (I was WS after 6 yrs of marriage, Dunc after 20)(long story - happy ending - happily into 23rd yr now...).<P>ANYWAY - it's not uncommon for people who have been hurt to want to put the cart before the horse, i.e. "I'll be able to re-commit fully AFTER he/she re-commits fully". But you can see the absurdity of that concept if both partners adhere to it, right?<P>Time to take that Leap of Faith, folks! It ain't gonna happen unless both partners are fully invested in it, and THAT ain't gonna happen if everybody is waiting on the other one to "go first"!<P>L_I_L took a lot of heat for posting her musings, which I thought was a little unfair - c'mon, all, scaring somebody off the board isn't helping anybody. But I too am confused as to why she and SS4N are still living separately - can you two clear that up for us?<P>Finally, although I completely understand and have empathy for SS4N's frustration and loneliness, dating other women at this time is just plain dangerous & asking for trouble. Knock it off, SS4N!<P>(<donning pruny schoolmarm face and rapping blackboard with pointer> ): Now, BOTH of you - you're either committed to repairing your marriage or you're not. No 'conditionals' allowed ("You go first!"). No safety nets either ("I'll just keep this other person on the back burner awhile 'til I see if this works out..."). Those doom you to slow progess and the limbo of uncertainty at best... failure at worst. TAKE THE LEAP. BOTH OF YOU. IT WORKS. (spoken by one who had her foot dragging out the back door for many years ...).<P>I see an awful lot of love, enjoyment, attraction, and respect between you two. These are strong cornerstones for any marriage. I also see a lot of piled-up hurt on both sides. Just DUMP it. This is not day 4,523 of an old, painful, confused marriage - it is Day One of a brand-new marriage - *every single day*. <P>Don't haul the old baggage into it. It's too heavy. That doesn't mean that old things can't be discussed and resolved - but do it from the framework of trust instead of distrust, openness instead of self-protection, and acting as teammates instead of adversaries. "Co-Caretakers Of The Marriage", your new titles. Make taking care of The Marriage - the third entity in your relationship - the highest priority, and the rest has an amazing way of falling into place.<P>OK, pep talk over <P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

I don't think anybody gave LIL any heat, I think that people had legitimate questions due to the initial posting being unclear about a number of things. I think it also became clear that SS4N loves his wife and is trying to save his marriage, but that his wife is continuing contact with the OM, and I think everybody here was letting her know that if she continued with the contact, she was going to lose her husband. I also think that LIL has put SS4N in a very, very tough position, and that's basically a man trying to save his marriage without the full cooperation from his wife. It seems to me that SS4N has taken the leap of faith, but he can't do it alone. If LIL loves her husband and wants to save the marriage, she needs to break off all contact with the OM, go back home and get down to the business of repairing and rebuilding her marriage. <P>I don't believe that letting LIL know that she is blowing an opportunity to save her marriage is giving her any heat.

...<p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited September 21, 2000).]