Some may be familiar with my problem.<P> H involved in EA (though he insists it is just a work relationship) There have been some out of town day trips, one overnight, and 2 yrs of lunches (I didn't know about the lunches)and many late nights at work. H took flowers from the business, to her apartment when she had surgery, instead of sending them. OW's H stays out of town and they get together on week ends. OW called one night and coldly asked for H. She had lost her bracelet, would he look for it. I thought that was strange but we went to the plant and looked (even though she was in that town and we were not) Now I know that she was in our van that day and wanted him to look in there.<BR>D day (for the lunches) brought a promise to end the lunches and many denials of anything inappropriate.<BR>I made an appointment for counselor and H wanted to go to. We have been there 4 times. I pick H up from work and we travel about an hour to the appt.<BR> Meeting before last, I went into the shop and into H office. He looked like a deer caught in headlights. On the ride I asked what made him nervous and he said OW had been in and out of his office all morning using copying machine, and he was afraid she would have been there when I got there and something would have been said. I told him she never talked to me before, why would she talk now and he said "oh, she wouldn't say anything to YOU" I was so steamed by the time we got to our appt that we were called in separately. H told the therapist that he was nervous about the time he had spent at the dentist (!) that morning and then being away for our appt as well. I told him what happened verbatim. He told me to let it go and appreciate H for all the effort he is making. H was asked earlier to not have any one on one contact (after work, trips) with OW (but he had stayed after one day that week with her to wait for her daughter to pick her up, then he locked up and left.She has keys) I just couldn't get over his defending her against what I might have said to her. I am not a combative person, quite the opposite. <BR>This week the therapist asked us to sign a POJA but H was reluctant.<BR>Now to the recent happening. Friday I asked if H would be going to work Sat. He said he wasn't sure, but in the morning he was getting ready, so I got up and said I wanted to go with him to shop for a gift near the plant. He got nervous and avoided looking at me. I took his face in my hands and turned him toward me and said it is okay, I can amuse myself for a couple hours while you work. We left in my car and when we got to the area he turned the opposite way. I asked where he was going and he said he was getting some gas and had forgotten his keys anyway so would not go to the shop. At the gas station I really was deep in thought, putting together what I thought was strange behavior. When H got back to the car I asked him to drive by the shop and he said OK. When we got there OW car was in the lot. I really lost it and thought I would be sick. I told him that I knew something was wrong when he wouldn't look at me, that this was so dishonest and didnt anything we had learned mean anything to him, this was "one on one" that he had agreed NOT to do. We went in and OW was at one of the computers. H went around to say hi and then stood there looking at me and OW pushed her chair back and looked and said Hi. I think I said Hi and then asked him if there was a "mail" key for him to use. He asked her for her key and we left. On the way to the Post Office he told me he knew she was coming in that day but didn't know when, and he was only going to get the mail and leave if she had been there when he was. I was upset for several hours, beside myself bringing up all the past lies. <BR>Sunday it really hit him hard and he was depressed and feeling like a jerk. Needed more alone time. We talked about it and seem to have reached a calmer place, but I am not as sure as I was about our marriage and his committment. <BR>Any help? L<BR>

Hi LAD,<P>Deja vu.<P>A very similar incident happened with me, but I did not handle it as well as you. My husband was leaving home one Saturday morning to do some yardwork at property he owns. I offered to do with him to keep him company, but he basically just blew up at me and refused to let me go. He even made me feel somewhate guilty by accusing me of just wanting to check on him and not trusting him, so I let it drop but had a BAD feeling.<P>You were right in insisting on going along, and your intuition was right too. They planned the meeting, and there was definitely something to hide.<P>I have recently come to realize that it didn't matter what I did, they found a way to communicate. The only way an affair really ends is for the betraying spouse to decide they truly WANT it to end. Your husband hasn't decided that yet. I hope he soon will.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint<P>My feeling was right, he met the OW that day.

thanks Peppermint,<BR> I have been following your posts, I hope for the best for you and it sounds to me that H is much more sincere this time. I can also understand your reluctance to believe and put your trust out there again.<BR>I have never had the slightest question about H going in on Sat...none. OW "always" went north for the weekends. Now I wonder about the Saturdays he was gone at 7 and not back until 1 or 2. <BR>Not long ago one of the men in the office told a gal(the only person that works with H that I can call friend), that he was thinking of starting a rumor that H and OW were having an affair. She told him not to, and she didn't think there was anything inappropriate going on, and he didn't start the rumor, but when I mentioned it to H a week ago, he got quite upset and the next day called that man into H office and asked about it. H also told OW and she went to the man and had words with him, both saying they felt he was way out of line and totally unexceptable. <BR>I had asked H not to talk about me at work, but he said he had to explain to OW how he knew about the rumor. I resent that she gets the explinations and I got nothing for so long. I told H that it could have been anyone there that wanted to start a rumor, they just were observing what OW and H were doing, lunches etc. <BR>I asked H why he took me to the shop Sat and he said he didn't know when she would be there and he wouldn't have told me "no" anyway and let me think the worst. He said over and over that he knew she was coming in to work but she never said when. He says he should have told me that she might be there and that he was only going to get the mail and leave. I told him SHE had her own key to get the mail and she could have gone to the PO and picked it up herself and he could have not gone at all. He wants to be able to go to work and not worry about who he talks to and what I am thinking, but I believe he set himself up for this whole business. <BR>I just don't believe his "naivete" at times, but the alternative is to believe he has been lying. <BR>H told me Sunday that he felt he needed "alone" time. Has FS ever said that? H says the only alone time he has is when he cuts the grass or is driving across the state on business, and he enjoys that time. Then H says he hates to be alone. He mentioned he doesn't think he should leave to sort things out, that it wouldn't help at all. That I deserve much better than him.<BR>We did the EN and made a POJA and signed it, which the therapist had urged. We did that Sunday night. <BR>Could this be a MLC, big time, or isn't anyone here old enough for that yet, LOL<BR>L

Hi again LAD,<P>Firestorm is 47, which might seem old for a MLC, but he probable WILL live into his nineties and most of the time acts about 12. I don't know how old your husband is, but he certainly does sound like he is having some kind of crisis.<P>Are the two of you benefitting from the counseling? Firestorm has been going to a counselor individually (really helpful) and we have just started phone counseling with Steve Harley (I feel REALLY good about it).<P>For many weeks firestorm told me that there was nothing inappropriate about his relationship with a long-time friend either. He really believed that until it was too late and the line had been crossed. If your husband and this other woman have EVER talked intimately or secretly, and said or done anything they would not want you to see, hear, or know about, the relationship is inappropriate. Sex is NOT a required part of an affair. If it was, there would be no such thing as internet affairs.<P>Please discuss this with your husband and your counselor. It is imperative that your husband be open and honest and that he accept that the relationship with this other woman is hurting you and damaging your chances to have a happy and successful marriage. Don't want for him to recognize that the relationship has become inappropriate because the damage will be much worse then.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint

Peppermint, Thanks again for the post, I have really been dwelling on this today, I don't like the word obsessive. Yes, we have been to the counselor 4 times. The first and third times seen separately. The third time being the time I was so mad because he thought I would say something to HER. The therapist said it was obvious that I was struggling and H is doing everything right and if the marriage fails it will be my fault for not letting these things go. That really hurts, because they are there together all day long, with only a receptionist in the office with them now. (Two people have quit and one is on maternity leave) and there has been no replacement. <BR>So I have been trying not to say anything or ask anything and then Sat comes around and I just knew something was wrong...he was avoiding my eyes. I still wasn't sure what it was and NEVER suspected anything until we actually got to the area and he said he forgot his keys. He never does that.<BR>H is 60 as of June. He has commented on lines in his face and getting older, but he is tanned and slim and good looking as well.<BR>I am really debating letting H read this post. He comes in once in awhile and I wouldn't mind if he stayed and looked at this site, but he doesn't. What do you think of that idea? I am afraid of pushing him too much to solve what he doesn't see as a problem. <BR>It has just been a "down" type of day. L

Hi LAD,<P>I think your husband REALLY needs to face the truth about this other relationship and recognize the potential problem. If he is agreeable to reading posts here, I think it would be a good idea.<P>Perhaps the relationship hasn't crossed the line into an affair yet, but he is definitely feeling guilty about something, isn't he? If you have a feeling that he is being less than honest, he probably is. If he would come to this site and ask for opinions about this relationship with the other woman, posters like firestorm could certainly open his eyes to the danger of ANY kind of personal relationship with another woman.<P>If the counselor actually said those things to you, I think you need a new counselor. In our first phone session with Steve Harley, he certainly made clear the damage done by the kind of relationship your husband seems to be involved with, as well as the importance of open and honest communication. Maybe you should think about that kind of counseling.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint

Yes, I have felt that the relationship was not appropriate from a couple years ago, and H knew that. They had a day trip that lasted until past midnight because OW wanted to stop a plant that she had invested in. <BR> I will ask H if he will come here and look. I don't know if he will post, though. <BR>He wants to stop the therapy, or at least not go every week, because it makes us both edgy to go there. I usually am fine until something happens when I pick him up I told him I was going regardless. This week he had left the office to get the mail and we were then late leaving. By the time we got there I thought all was well, but think H is nervous this week because of the Sat incident. Your thoughts have helped, thanks. L<BR>