If anybody remember me... please help...<BR>I was in EN section for awhile...<P>We went to see our counselor just today. A tension built up during the session when we talked about how he cannot make a commitment to this marriage again. We got into a huge fight on the way home.<P>He said "we're are back to square one. Maybe we always were." He's been so pessimistic about our relationship after his A, (and I wanted to scream "That's because of your unwillingness to do anything about it!!!!!!!!!")<P>He got off at his cabin site, no words, didn't even look at me. (JERK!)<P>The problem is he doesn't want to do any of hard work to make our relationship better. He knows that he doesn't want to change. He tells me he doesn't, even when I talk to him calmly. <P>He got so diffensive and started using harsh voice and words. I felt so hurt and angry, and gave right back at him. (I've been a good PlanAer until today!!!!!) Stupid me!!!!! I thought he was in a better shape than that. BIg mistake!!!!<P>Where have all those reading I did gone???? Please remind me those important MB stuff.... I'm bad...

Alien,<P>I am there girlfriend! Yesterday, H and I had a counseling session, too. Although they are all hard, we keep plugging away at it. However, I feel our progress would be in leaps and bounds if he could just commit to the relationship. But, he is stuck. Basically, the therapist told H that because he cannot decide if he wants me or OW, he doesn't know what direction to take us. Therapist work at keeping us together, but if H has one foot here and the other foot there, his divided energies isn't going to help him in either situation.<P>H and I are pretty good at not yelling or screaming. No LB after the session, but the session was so intense it really just rubbed him the wrong way. H understands that hard work is involved, and is willing to an extent, but when it get really tough, I feel he wants to wimp out.<P>There are times when like you I want to scream out your very words, but I don't, at least not yet. Instead, I don't say anything except "We'll talk later because I don't want to say anything I can't take back." Then I'll go home and call a friend or come here and vent.<P>It's the pits I know. Sometimes, this plan A stuff sucks for us BS. Hang in there, no matter what happens, you can Plan A from any point. Take care, MT

Just do it without him....or without his realizing he's helping anyway. And no, I'm not kidding and yes, it is worth it and no, it may not be fair but it works and we get all we want in the end so what's the big deal?<P>Honey, it's not unusual for him not to want to "work" at it. They feel that if it were right, it wouldn't need work, it would just happen. Now WE know that's not true, but we've armed ourselves with knowledge. And I know you've heard before a million times...knowledge is power.<P>Now, you can't educate him. You can't make him see that it makes all the sense in the world that it'll happen if he puts forth some effort. In fact, in order to save face and prove that he was right and the problems weren't BECAUSE of the affair, he may just be kicking and screaming and sabotaging every step of the way.<P>No biggie.<P>Seriously, no biggie.<P>It would be nice if our spouses wanted to jump down in the trenches and help, but quite honestly, I rarely have seen that on this board in the last two years. Mine certainly didn't. He came home b/c he "should". Or so he said. Now I know he missed me and a bunch of other stuff. Think he'd talk or admit anything...read a book....see a counselor...yeah, right, and next week he'll put on a thong and nothing else and go to work on the construction site!!!! <P>You can do this. You can SHOW him, gently LEAD him into that feeling. Forget telling him, forget talking to him, forget having him jump in to help. Live it, show him. It does work.<P>Hang in there.<P>Lori<P>

MT & Lori,<BR>You guys are so sweet. (Is there a smiley face with tears?)<P>I've been reading all kinds of things, Power of Praying Wife, Just Your Type, Love Must Be Tough, HNHN, SAA, Torn Asunder, and posts about boundaries etc etc... While I'm reading them I felt like I understood, then when it comes to apply it, see what happened! <P>Seems like when I'm doing pretty well and when he's looking pretty good, then I start EXPECTING more from him. That's when something happen. ALWAYS. I guess it's me. Probably he's been making a constant progress since d-day. Just me going a little too faster than he does, that's the problem...<P>I know that I can't change him, as knowledge. But as soon as I feel "hope" in my heart, my feeling takes the control... It's so hard... I guess that hope keeps me from withdrawing, that's good, and then I go wrong direction.<P>When he came home, I bit the bullet and apoloziged for yelling at him. He softened up quickly then. I told him let's take it easy. I'm going to secretly planA again. Without him. I have to tell myself. Don't count on him. Almost better this way than expect something from him and get disappointed.<P>I guess I'm afraid if he's a genuine, extra self-centered person. Sometimes I really wonder, did I marry a wrong person.... bad sign....? Please God, help me keep loving him...

alien, lostva is right. Now few can do what she did as seemingly flawlessly as she did, with the attitude that she had, but she did make it work.<P>Thankfully my H never wanted to leave the marriage, had not become very emotionally tangled in his affair and is not an angry person. That all helped.<P>However, even with a committed remorseful man, did he really do any work, especially in the beginning? No. Amazingly enough, even after a year of what I would call a successful recovery, my H can up with the incredible statement that if a relationship is good, it shouldn't take any work. Huh? And he was saying it in the context that he thought our relationship was good!<P>So aside from ending the affair (which he did pretty much before I discovered it), he didn't do hardly anything to recover...and I truly think he is as happy as a clam now <P>Yet I have seen significant changes in him and very positive growth in our marriage. He has changed, but I don't think he is even aware of it.<P>So the bad news, alien, is that I doubt that your ISTJ husband is going to embrass counseling or throw himself into working on your marriage.<P>Maybe people in counseling and who write books are not ISTJs. It makes sense that it takes two to work on the marriage, but it is a myth that they actively have to acknowledge they are working.<P>Counseling would have been like a torture treatment to my H. Talking about the affair (which if we talked six hours total in 18 months it would be a lot) made his head want to explode. Although that is a rather convenient excuse, the look on his face was like none other than I have ever seen. I do think it was excruitatingly traumatic for H to talk about, deal with or even remember.<P>Ah, but wise people say, you shouldn't stuff your feelings. In my H's case, I'm not sure that was true. I think he really could put it in a box and put it away and it wasn't going to come out. <P>Maybe "working" or "talking about working" on the relationship would be a bit like a counselor taking me out to a car, popping the hood and telling me I had to rebuild the engine...or I couldn't ever drive again. And then everyone joined in and kept pressuring me. I would pretty much know that as good as my intentions were, that car had very little chance of ever starting. I might be angry with everyone and throw up my hands and resist.<P>To an ISTJ, probing feelings and emotions I really think is more intimidating and even less tangible. There seems to be some emotional disconnect in their brain.<P>Yet, I don't think I ever made a positive change within myself or in how I communicated that did not result in some growth or progress on H's part.<P>The "safer" I made the relationship, the better it became. That is not to say that I didn't have bounderies, and thankfully he willingly had bounderies for himself, but when I stopped overtly trying to enlist him in "working" on the relationship is when I really started to see improvement.<P>The price is possibly the knowledge that I may forever have the emotional lead in the relationship. <p>[This message has been edited by FaithHopeLove (edited September 21, 2000).]

FHL,<P><B>Maybe people in counseling and who write books are not ISTJs. It makes sense that it takes two to work on the marriage, but it is a myth that they actively have to acknowledge they are working.</B><P>This is so true. In my post in EN I wrote that I noticed how he showed me affection without even realizing it. When I asked him to show me affection, he'd says he won't because it's uncomfortable for him. I got mad and sad. But while later he'll start doing it anyway. This was a good discovery. <P><B>Ah, but wise people say, you shouldn't stuff your feelings. In my H's case, I'm not sure that was true. I think he really could put it in a box and put it away and it wasn't going to come out.</B><P>I really really really agree. My H has no problem boxing it up and it's gone! Unfortunately there's something really scary inside, I can smell it in distance once in awhile. I don't know if he notices it. Probably not.<P>Your counseling and rebuilding engine example is so clear, now I can see how tormenting it is for him! I'm not going to stop him going with me, (at least we started to take time and talk), but I'll try to keep the conversation light. I promise, I'm never going to push or force or accuse or blame or torture him ever again.<P>Like lostva said, I have to show him, and lead him gently. O Lord please help me I need strength and love inside of me....<P>BTW I ordered the book you've recommended, I'm really looking forward to reading it!

Hi Alien:<P>Really haven't seen you here in a while. Things could be going better?<BR>The real work only begins where they come home doesn't it? At least when the affair was not and heavy you had a target to aim at.<BR>Now your problem is apathy or an unwillingness to work on the relationship.<P>If your H is like mine, he is one of those people who don't work on emotional issues...that is part of the reason they got involved with OP...it felt good and life at home was not so good...so why not. Not often do they ask themselves "What could I do to improve my present relationship?" They're mainly reactive not proactive. So, now that they're home, they will continue that behavior. Now trying to "force" them to change is usually fruitless, but leading them to change can make a difference. <P>I tried to make my H see that things needed to change for 3 years after our separation...he just plodded along and...you know what...nothing changed and he left again. But this time I have recognized that he really is clueless as to what needs to be done to repair our marriage. He needs to be given the tools to repair the marriage and told how to use them. And once he sees a change (done at his inseption but with help) then he will be more willing to accept the idea that things can change although he didn't think they could. <P>I think your H is here. He is back in the marriage, but he really doesn't think anything can change. Tell him what he needs to do...specifics, not generalities...and how he need to do it. But make it something that he can do that will have definite tangible results...bird in hand, so to speak. <P>Let me give you an example. When my H is around me he is uncomfortable (for whatever reason). This manifests itself by his appearing to me not to "be there" when we were together. I told him how this makes me feel and that he need to make more effort to look at me when we're talking or being together. I was amazed how he changed. He has continued to make more effort to make eye contact when we're together and it has helped to bring us closer. It's a little thing, but it's a good example of being given the right tool and instructions on how to use it.<P>Maybe to your H it all looks like to big a undertaking. Give him little changes to make so that he can see possibilities and not try to force the big changes at first. Build on the little changes, give it time and see.<P>Buffy<P><BR> <P>

Thanks Buffy.<BR>All your words went right into my heart. <P>Things are going good, he even looks happy, maybe because we got over that big fight rather quickly? We really didn't have many fights before, I didn't even know we can fight and recover. Maybe that's a skill we need to learn <P>Ok, here's my assignement.<BR>I'll tell him to call my name rathen than the word "mom". He uses it mostly when the kids are around, but they are always around. So I'll tell him that I want him to call my name as much as possible.<P>I'll start smiling at him when I can look into his eyes. Which I wasn't really good at. Asking him to do the same might freak him out (geez what a wimp, huh ?) so I'll see how he reacts to me and then think of next step.<P>I do hug him a little longer lately and I don't know if he noticed it. But he hug me back, must be a good sign!<P>I'll try to make today better, and not to worry about tomorrow so much. Thank you all. God bless you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lostva:<BR><B><BR>Honey, it's not unusual for him not to want to "work" at it. They feel that if it were right, it wouldn't need work, it would just happen. Now WE know that's not true, but we've armed ourselves with knowledge. And I know you've heard before a million times...knowledge is power.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How true! That is my husband's number one reason for hedging on everything. It should just happen, he thinks. I hear the word "chemistry" in my sleep. I am sick of it. <P>Living it just seems to take so long!<P><BR>

Oops. I can't quite figure out how to use those quote reply things very well. I can't seem to respond to two things at once or something. Can anyone help me figure out how to respond to one portion of a quote nad later another? What do the "B's" mean? Command for "bold"?<P>Alien-<P>I have read quite a few of your posts in other areas. I feel a sympathy for your situation because I can kind of relate to it. Asking for a committment is all I have wanted from my H for three months. I have tried to demonstrate patience and faith in our marriage. While some of it has inspired him (he has expressed such), I still can't get 100%. What Lostva says is true, but it's hard to apply it. I want him to believe that our marriage can be saved--not that it will. I think that would be a big step. I am just beginning to realize that even if I do everything right from this point out, it takes two to make it work. I think it takes one to have faith, but two to make it happen.<P>

gsd----<BR>Thanks, I learned some of your situation too. It must be hard with your H not being there.<P>I'm about to give up verbal (or written ) committment from him. He just cannot give it to me. Took me a big fight and lots of posting and reading here to finally accept that.<P>Instead, I focuse on his action. Such as "he didn't leave me for the OW" "he's trying to help me out w/chores" "he's putting the kids to bed" "he's talking about next trip to my home town" "he's giving me a hug and a kiss before he goes to work" "he's trying to come home early" All of these his actions are telling me that he wants to stay married to me.<P>Maybe it's better than someone saying "I commit 100%" and then breaking it. My H cannot promise that he's never gonna have an affair again, but it's better than him saying never and doing it anyway. At least he's not a natural-born liar. At least he's honest with how he feels right now....<P>Of course, this doesn't take care of my fear. I never ever want to go thru this again. But that's a different story.<P>Anyway, after realizing that, I feel like I can act pleasantly in front of him. I don't have to push him anymore. He's working in his own way. Oh gosh, everybody has been telling me this and just now I really grasped it.<P>From few of your posts I've read, sounds like you are doing things together to make it work. I wish I could have 2 dates a week! And he's seeing "new you". That's great. I admire your strength. <P>This site is such a gift. Thanks again, I'll keep you in my prayers.

alien--<BR>Actually the two dates a week thing has kind of dissappeared. Money's tight so he's working more. <P>I am very glad that you have accepted him working this out in his own way. I am having a hard time with that. My H says that he's trying to figure things out and my ifst response is a "No you're not!" because his way is not my way. I recognize the concept but can't seem to fully understand and internalize it. <P>"At least he's honest about how he feels right now." How true. I'd rather have that than another broken promise. Another thing that you mentioned (I think it came from another post too) was that one does not have to acknowledge making a committment; focus on the behaviors that demonstrate that he wants to stay married. Wow. I haven't been doing a good job there. . . .Thanks for the insight.