Okay, I haven't had the time to lurk or post in the last few weeks or so ... but when I got on here this a.m., I noticed Bernzini is nowhere to be found. I'm just a bit concerned because she was such an avid poster. Anyone know how she's doing.<P>Concerned,<BR>Jo<P>------------------<BR>Josie_Res@Hotmail.com<P>"Remain flexible like a reed, as opposed to an oak which can snap in the wind"

I'm here. . .I just check on you all these days. . .I feel a bit selfish because I don't drop a line much in response to your posts, guess I just don't have the energy, but I do care. I am really sorry. Please don't think that I don't care about you all. I think, maybe, since I couldn't do anything to save my own marriage, I don't have much advise that would be worthwhile.<P>Other than that, I am pretty much a person who doesn't like to analyze and talk about an issue too much--I like to do something about my problems--something, anything, sometimes even the wrong thing, but I just can't sit there and dwell. This is the first time in my life that I can't do anything proactive to help this situation. Now, there is not a single thing that I, personally, can do to put my marriage back together. (Nothing I do is right, anyways--everything I say or do pisses him off.) The only thing that I could possibly ever do is wait him out until the day he decides he really loves and wants me. I am prepared to do this, but realistically thinking, that day may never come. I have to deal with that.<P>Anyways, Resilient, I was wondering the same thing about you, too. I haven't heard much from you. I was thinkin about you this morning and wondering if you were OK and if you were happy these days. You really got a bum rap.<P>I was especially thinking about you this week because I got a new job in semiconductors. I've never really done this kind of work; I am just a tech 1. I will be working in photolithography--and went through this past week of training with various engineers. I loved it. In any other time of my life, I would have been eating this stuff up, but you know, these days. . .kind of just going through the motions. But I was standing in awe of these brilliant people. The kind of dedication it takes to have such a career is astounding. I remember you saying you were an engineer. (What kind, I don't remember.) Someone of your kindness and intelligence deserves to be happy--God must know that you are tough. I am praying that one of these days soon, he will turn things around for you.<P>So. . .is your ol boy still holding out on you? Is the Plan B working? Is he still calling and e-mailing? Do you think that he is ready to come home? Could be that one of these days, he will call and say that he is. Will you still be there for him?<P>Like I said, I hope the best for you.<P>Me, I am not doing so well, but doin what I gotta. Trying not to cry when I hear some stupid song on the radio, (that sounds like something SHE would say!) or when I see "The Few, the Proud, the Marines" commercial on the tv. Unfortunately, unlike a lot of people, I can't dwell on the bad things that he did. Yeah, for a few fleeting moments, I think about his professed love for skanky old Miss Kitty and tell myself that I should rightfully just walk away and forget about him. But deep inside, I just can't. I know that I love him and miss him, and that I shouldn't do either, but I do. And it's a totally unreciprocated love, which I know also. That's about it.<P>When does this get any better? I am waiting for THAT day to come, at least.<P>You hang in there, too. I am thinking of you.

Bernzini, I was glad to see you post. I wondered about you also when allison asked about Jo and I.<P>I'm in about the same boat as you. I am enjoying school. It is keeping my mind occupied, as are the kids..... but I feel like I am going through the motions also sometimes. It is hard. I really enjoyed school and work before. I think the concept is to act "as if".... the attitude comes befor the behavior.<P>It's a slow process.<P>I have no clue what is going on...(except H's MLC) but he is spending a lot of time with the kids and helping me by watching them so I can study. I really appreciate that and so do the kids. He was such a wonderful and caring father before. I see less tension and irritablility from him when he is with them. That helps them too.<P>I also notice that the "possessed" look in his eyes is gone. INteresting.<P>I continue to lurk and will look for posts from you and Resillient to respond too. We should at least keep in touch to support each other. We've all come such a long way.

Hey TT,<P>You are such a wonderful person. I think it would be a real pleasure to know you in RL. <P>I agree, we should continue to post and support one another. I intend to. Just these last couple weeks have been so rigorous at work, 64 bit technology is almost out and we're the Plant that's developing it. Thank God for my job, I do every day. Never wanted to be someone who lives to work, but right now it's a God send. Could't survive fiancially or emotionally without it. And to think 6 mos ago I almost lost my job, I get a bit angry at my H for that, I place that responsibility squarely on his shoulders.<P>It's been so long since I've talked to him. This is the longest in 20 years. Up till now I had at least talked to him every day for those twenty years. <P>Some days without thinking, I see his face in my mind. It disturbs me and it's not an intentional thought image, it just happens.<P>I hope you both are well. I truly do. I feel a real emotional bond with my friends here at MB.<P>Bernzini, you sound somewhat angry, Honey. And rightly so. I'm so sorry. Please stop taking this out on yourself. You deserve to feel good and be happy. Please treat yourself with love and care,love yourself, be good to yourself, PLEASE! You're a very special person, it's easy to see that in your words, you simply don't deserve this treatment, it's all the way wrong. But this man isn't going to make a change anytime soon, I'm afraid no "immediate" miracles are on the horizon so forget him for now...if he came to you tomorrow begging for forgiveness I fear he'd put you thru alot more hell because he's not ready, they have to be ready and they have to decide when that is, if it happens sooner than that, it will be more hurt and pain shoveled your way. I'm in the same boat and believe me I would beg my H to come back if I knew he'd really change, but it's not time because he's not ready.<P>Your H has put you thru h*ll, he is selfish and very narsistic right now. So forget him and concentrate on you and your precious little guy. Your H will feel his part in this soon enough, I guarantee it Bernzini. There is NO question.<P>Be strong you two. Love yourselves and your beautifully precious children. They are a true gift from God.<P>I'll be here more frequently after middle of next week. I sure miss you guys.<P>I'm going to try and get in touch with Meg and Allison, I'm so worried about both of them. Their experiencing realities from their H's fog and I know they're hurting. Please say prayers for them.<P>God Bless,<P>Jo

What do you mean, "The posessed look in his eyes is gone?" Is that a good sign, or a bad one? Does that mean that reality has hit and it's cool with him? (meaning, girlfriend, new baby, sad wife, and kids that he gets to "babysit?" everyone together, big happy family?)<P>Does it mean that he doesn't have to lie about anything any more, you know the culmination of all the dirty secrets with the pending birth of his new baby?<P>Does it mean that he has figured out where he went wrong and is starting to come around again? Back to you?<P>Is this a hopeful sign?<P>At least you get to see your husband, communicate with him. He gets to spend time with you and his children.<P>Me, I am not so lucky. I have not seen my husband in person since February. I have not talked to him in a week. He read my post last week, called me up and started screaming at me about all the "lies" that I tell. How I am filling my son's head with lies about him. I listened for about 10 seconds and put the phone in my son's hands. I can't take it anymore, I can't take one more fight. I would rather just let him go than fight with him.<P>My son and I always talk about him, this is true. I am still having a difficult time adjusting to this grimy little city, doing things that I don't want to do, and all the while, my heart is breaking for my home, our home. The boy and I were driving around on yet another apartment search, and I was expressing my frustration with the whole thing. And my son was saying "Mom, why did we have to come here? Why can't we just go home?"<P>And I tell him "I would love to go home, I would like nothing more. I miss our house, I miss our friends."<P>My son says "Then call dad up and tell him that you want to come home."<P>I say "Dad doesn't want me to come home. He loves you very much, but Daddy and I have a lot of problems these days."<P>He says "Why do you and Daddy fight all the time? Don't you love Daddy?"<P>I say "I love daddy very, very much."<P>Kid says "Then you have to call him right now, as soon as we get to the house, and tell him that. Then he will come and get us."<P>As if! If I called my husband to say I love you, I would get:<P>1) What do you want now?<BR>2) That's too bad for you<BR>3) You're a cry baby<P>That's all I would get. I know this in advance.<BR>So there you go.<P>But I am still, hanging in there. Doin what I gotta.<BR>

TT sorry about the grumpy-sounding post--I was chatting with someone while trying to write to you, so the words came out all wrong-sounding--I read through it again--sounded a tad grouchy, I didn't mean it.<P>But I am wondering how things are looking for you. I am hoping and praying for you that this nightmare will end for you soon, some kind of closure.<P>I want your husband to walk in through your front door and say "I was all wrong, you are the love of my life and I have put you through hell. Is there any way at all that we can put this behind this?" I wish this would happen for you.<P>Dang, but you have some fortitude that I don't. You are so calm!! Where do you get that?<P>I got that ol Indian temperment. (Mom is half Nez Perce.) I took the kids to the tribal museum today, and I saw the tomahawks display. I was thinking "Hmmmmmmmmmm. Long time ago, my anscestors used those on people they didn't like. Too bad they didn't know Miss Kitty."<P>Okay, anyways, 'nuff of that.<P>

You girls are so great! I have never heard such uplifting dedication. We are all lucky at MB to get a glimpse of the cyber-friendships that can dwell among our little group.<P>Your dedication and sharing and support of each other is why many of keep coming back to MB, even when nothing new on the front is happening. <P>With no emotional support at home except for my kids, and they should not be doing it, really, but they are sweeties--and they don't even know what is going on! I love to come here and find support and see it so strongly, too.<P>H is non-talkative as usual. What a farce we live, it is so steril! But not tense so the kids don't feel scared-yet. I give him a hug and swak on the cheek goodnite, and he skwirms like a kindergartner getting his first kiss on the playground!<P>Brava, ladies. You really cheered me up tonite, I was a little down. <BR>

Hi Guys,<P>Hope you don't mind if I jump on the thread. Thanks for answering mine...sorry I didn't get back to you on that one, I've been a little out of it.<P>Guess we found a little club here where we are all kind of in the same boat...a holding pattern. Do you think we are starting to give up hope? I think it would be easier for me if I could...H is pretty sure he's done here.<P>I did pop over to the MLC boards at the Divorce Busting site. Loved the attitude over there. Yes, it is truly out of our hands and I can't (none of us can) let their journeys become our journeys. We will have enough to deal with on our own, time to let go and relize that there is not a damn thing we can do to fix them. That is so hard for me. I have, according to a post over there, done everything I shouldn't have. Begged, cried, manipulated, bargained. I am trying to be done with all of that and disengage, as they say.<P>He took the kids this weekend and it's been a disaster. Youngest son called me yesterday begging to come home for a few hours. I spoke with H (so much for no contact) and we decided to let S come home for 3 hours. Well, son called dad for an extra hour, dad said ok, but when he came to pick up S, S had a fit (he's 12) and tried to refuse to get in the car. H is no longer coming in, I was watching this from my window. S eventually got in the car and off they went. I can't wait to get him back here at 6:00.<P>I guess I have to think about how very strong this craving for freedom must be for these WS to put themselves and others through this. I don't understand it, but it must be such a necessary thing for them...I hope I never ever develop that sort of craving. Please God, don't ever let me have a MLC.<P>Girls, we are going to be ok. We have our jobs, our homes, our families, each other and our kids.<P>I will admit to a small bit of hope, I guess I will always have it, but I don't think this man will ever be faithful to me or to anyone else for that matter. <P>I am proud of us all...we are going to be fine. We have used this time to better our lives instead of falling apart. We are looking good, taking care of ourselves, taking care of our kids. Lets' stick together when we get a chance. The (gulp) holidays are right around the corner and I'm going to need all the help I can get to make it through that.<P>allison

Hi ladies,<P>The possessed look that I am referring too is the "deer in the headlights look".. Bernzini you may have not been able to notice it because you are not in his presence. I have noticed it pretty much since the "trip" last novemeber. I think Allison has also mentioned it. And I do read about it on the MLC web site. Seems it is pretty consistent.<P>I do believe my H is having a MLC or as SHarley describes a giver snap. And an affair usually goes along with it.<P>My H still does funny things that he never would have before. He is very much into his professional persona. That is definaely a MLC thing.....at the pinnicle. I guess he feels OP is helping him reach his "true" potential.<P>But, Having said all that, there is nothing we can do about it. It is their journey. We have to make our own. To be quite honest, H is currently everything in a person that he and I disliked. If the old H knew this guy, he wouldn't like him either.<P>You ask me about my calm. First of all I know I am very lucky in many respects because I do not currently have the financial headaches that can make this situationworse....but that is good, because I also have no family to turn to.<P>I have come a long way in my faith. I have gotton on my hands and knees and asked for forgiveness and begged to be led in the right direction. It takes constant vigilance on my part, because I tend to allow my hurt surface on occasion. <P>I have truly detached. That's the only way to get through this. <P>I think about the lives hurt. H's mom who is ashamed. An innocent child brought into the world for an agenda. The four of us involved are in our 40's. It is truly unbelievable.<P>This child will be a half sib of my children. I have no idea how, later in life, I will be able to prepare my children for their relationships. I pray for an answer there also.<P>It is sad to watch the players. They are in a place where they cannot see what is happening. I feel for my H. I do notice his eyes more normal...not all the time but more often...and he is much more relaxed with the kids.....doesn't seem to expect them to jump when he says jump. That has helped them trememdously and for that I am grateful. I just have to be grateful for the small things right now. I guess the rest will come later.

No Allison, you are very welcome to jump in any time you want--glad to see you, please join the club<P>And Burned Spouse, too. I am very glad you are here, too.<P>I just don't feel very strong today, I guess that we do need to stick together--who else are we going to depend on?<P>I was at my new job the other day, and I had to go down to the plant medic to get fitted for a respirator (toxic gas risk in the laboratory/fabrication) module.) The nurse had a big picture of her son on her desk, he's in the Marine Corps. I couldn't look at it. When she took my BP, weighed me, I was telling her it was a sore spot with me, I have gained and lost and gained back (big mystery why) a lot of weight in the last couple of months, it stinks because I am looking to get into the reserves here soon and I am still a tad over. So she started talking about her son, babbling on and on about he was a Marine stationed at Camp Hansen in Okinawa, did I know where that is? She is so proud of him, It's so beautiful there, blah blah blah.<P>(Do I know where that is? Duh. It's what I call "home.")<P>The tears just started pouring out of my eyes and I was sitting there trying to wipe them away as fast as I could while her back was turned. She might as well have been flogging me with a whip. I couldn't let her see me break down, I couldn't tell her that I had something in my eye, (the laboratory is a clean room) I couldn't tell her that it was "allergies." I had just answered a six page questionier confirming that I have no allergies.<P>I am so ashamed of how easy I cry. I cry when I get mad, I cry when I am overwhelmed, but rarely when I am bereft, sad (weird, I know that sounds weird) but nowadays, it's different. I am very sad now. ANd I cry a lot.<P>I have to drive my mom's old care until I can get my own licensed. It only has AM radio that picks up only one station with music--Golden Oldies Country. So that's whay I gotta listen to. I was driving over to the daycare to pick up my son and "Stand By Your Man" came on. Stupid, I know, but I started crying again. Stand by your man, my [censored]. Stand by him all you want, he's not going to change is what I am thinking.<P>I can hear my husband's voice in my head "You are feeling sorry for yourself again, grow up and act like an adult!"<P>And then, I can remember his words to HER: "Oh, sweetheart, don't cry. I wish I was there to comfort you."<P>The company I got hired on to is so awesome, I love it--the pay is good, the benefits are great, the people are wonderful. I should feel very lucky that I was picked up by this company. I want to be strong for them and not let anyone down. I have a big responsibility, my job is very precise and doesn't allow for a lot of screwups. <P>The company offers free counseling, but I feel silly taking them up on it, using all my five sessions within the same month. I don't know what else to do? How am I going to heal from this? (Again, I hear him saying "Always feeling sorry for yourself.")<P>I am feeling almost weak for loving someone, does that make sense? This is not supposed to happen when you love someone.<P>At the same time, I know I am almost foolish for loving him, HE even points that out. He says "Why would you want me if I am such a looser?" (I don't ever tell him that he's a looser, but he says this over and over again like I have. I never have.)<P>I am worried for my son. I believe in staying together for the children. He always says "What the point of staying together for the kid if all we do is fight in front of the kid?"<P>The thing is, we don't HAVE to fight in front of the kid. I don't want to fight, who does? Why does every issue have to be a conflict?--even the fact that he cheated on me, if he would just stop lying, start being honest with me, and be sorry for what he did, I would get over it, I promise. But, I am the only one that seems to have to deal with this. I am a witch--I am made to look like I am the one starting the fights.<P>But, yes, I am worried for my son. He is acting like a little hellspawn these days (emotional support from the kids--yeah, right, they are starting to drain me, especially the "man of the family." He needs his father badly.) But when I ask "Do you want to go be with daddy," he says "Yes, but only if you come with me." I say "Why is that?" He says "Cuz Daddy yells all the time." I say "But he only yells at me." And he says "That's why you can't come." Well, this makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? One big circle.<P>I really can't seem to get closure on all this because I have been blamed for things that I really don't think that I have done, and I am stuck being punished for it. It's not the punishment that sucks--it's the fact that I really love the "punisher." Think of how you would feel if you were sent to prison for commiting a crime that you did not do--based on the charges of someone that you loved very much. I am stuck pondering this.<P>This is what it feels like--prison. I am stuck here doing my sentence--what else can I do? Just do it. The Nike commercial.<P>Okay, well, I will stop complaining, I have to go get ready for church (this is a challenge--none of the kids want to go, but they are so rotten, Nana doesn't want to watch them.)<P>So, I am glad that we have a club going here. I will do a better job of supporting you and answering (not just reading, because I do read) your posts.<P>Love you all!!<P>Mary <P>

Mary, I can clearly see what is getting in your way of healing. You are TAKING it! And you are taking it personally.<P>Don't do it. Don't you dare. He may not respect you, but you need to respect yourself. They need to blame someone, or something that is making them unhappy, because it sure couldn't be them.<P>(HA)<P>Your H wants to dump it all on you. I am reminded of what I tell my kids when someone is picking on them. They are doing it because you are letting them.<P>See, that's the one thing I got a handle on. I detached enough so that I will not take his mean looks, words etc. He can do or say whatever he wants and I'll just go on being me....calm and polite (OK,,,,so I did have a few blow outs)...It makes no sense to try to make sense to someone who is irrational and has no conscience (right now I hope)!!! The only person it getssss by being that way is you!!!!! So just don't bite, don't buy into his view.... You have your own. Act "as it.." Let him go go go. And believe me, it is very hard. I know. And I really have to try harder on some days. But I act "as if..." i am happy and content. I believe that behavior will follow attitude!!! <P>Read the book of wisdom in the bible for some calming words..... Also proverbs!!!!<P>Do we know what parts of the country we are all in???? I wish we could actually get together....like they are on the divorse forum. They are going to Nashville, which is actually 4 hours from me.

Hi TT,<P>I certainly could use an MB get-together. I live in Gig Harbor, WA. So does Lora.<P>From what I hear the D/D group are going to Nashville, but it sounds like a party of sorts. Not that a party is bad or anything. <P>I would do all the foot work finding hotels and Bed & Breakfasts for poeple to stay if anyone wanted to have a MB meeting here in WA (preferable Gig Harbor). It's a very nice place and perfect setting for a relaxed meeting.<P>Tell me what you think.<P>Jo

I'll be there Jo,<BR>I was thinking the same thing, that those of us with seperated H could use something fun to look forward to. <BR>Lora<BR>

Isn't it a good idea Lora!<P>I could accomodate 4 ppl in my house if they didn't want to stay at a Hotel or B&B. It would be really cool. We could rent a hall at the Inn at Gig Harbor and have a workshop or something. Maybe just support b*tching session.<P>Think about it!<P>Jo

Well, Jo, I have wondered for sometime if we could hook up one of these days--I live in Idaho, pretty close to you, and I told you that I just moved from Ft Lewis WA last year, so I know your area very well. I used to go to Gig Harbor every now and then. I miss it.<P>In fact, just before I started on this board, I had tried to go back to Japan to be with my husband, which required waiting in Tacoma (McChord AFB) for a flight out. I didn't have priority since I am no longer active duty, so I had to sit and wait and wait and wait. I lived in a sleezy horrid hotel for almost a week (military billeting booked up--guard weekend,) wasting money, until I finally gave up. I wandered all over Tacoma like a homeless person on the transit system, looking for people I knew, but since my unit had deactivated, they were all gone. Finally I called my husband to tell him to come and get me. He started yelling on the phone about all the horrible things people were saying about him because I couldn't keep my mouth shut, because I was a big baby and had come running home to mom, and how his job was a stake for all this. I had let the bills lapse for a month as I had come back to the states and now he had the cable and the cell phone shut off (big deal, but it was something to b**** about, huh?)<P>That's when I got on the Greyhound and came home to mom and dad. I could not take being yelled at one more time. <P>Just think--if I had maybe stuck it out in Tacoma for a little while longer, I would be in Japan right now. Shoulda woulda coulda. But that might not have been a good thing.<P>Anyways--where was I????<P>Jo, if I had known you then!!<P>I would love to get together and meet some of you, getting away one of these days would be just the medicine for all of us. What a treat!! We all deserve to be treated for all that we have been through.<P>It would be such a crime to talk to you all and have such wonderful friends, and never really "know" you!<P>It would be nice to get meet you and Lora, Jo. The stories we could tell.<P>Tell you the truth--I have been checking out the D/D forum, too. I chat with a couple of them now and then. I am thinking about going to Nashville, too. What the heck? It would be something to look forward to.<P>Well, I think church is out of the question this morning, the kids don't want to go, sit still and be quiet. I don't have the umph to fight with them. Too bad for me, but I am tired.<P>

Berni,<P>I really do think it's a GREAT idea. I'm an excellent planner and I think if we did it we should all go to a day spa and get pampered for an entire day. Getting rubbed by someone.... that's a new concept! <P>What say you?????<P>Jo

I say definately--sometime soon.<P>Allison, TT, Burnedspouse--are any of you guys capable of getting away and coming to the great Northwest? Or meet anywhere?<P>Maybe, if we work real hard, we can figure out something to do with kids for those of us that have them. Maybe some big kids can tend some little ones, ect, if they come with, so that we ladies can spend some time together.<P>Maybe since this will be a Christmas alone without Daddy (actually, I think Daddy is planning to come and take MiniMe away to St Louis and spoil him with material wealth this Christmas) we could have a Christmas together, one big family. Or is this silly?<P>My company is having a total shutdown for the holidays, that would be a good time for me, right off the bat. Any other time I will have to schedule off.

Hello friends,<P>Count me in!!!!<P>I could not possibly get away at Christmas since the kids will want to be around home, but I would love to go. Don't worry, I will come without the kiddos. How about for New Years? I've always wanted to see that part of the country...somewhere it actually rains and grass grows. I love Arizona, but boy, it's brown!<P>I think this is an excellent idea! We all need something to look forward to, and we need to take care of ourselves a bit. A day spa...sounds like heaven to me.<P>Maybe Mary could dig us up a couple of Marines for the weekent (just kidding hon, you need another Marine like you need a hole in the head).<P>Church didn't work out for me today either. I went to the grocery store and spent money I didn't have, but hey...I guess that's H's problem right now. I can't even sit and watch a movie with my kids not here...feels too lonely to do so.<P>Jo...the planner...I mean it, I am up for this, just hope we can all come up with a time that works. <P>Let's keep this thread going, I feel like our little group is really helping me right now. And Burned Spouse, I mean you too. You and I have so many similarities...I've been keeping a close watch on your posts. You are one brave woman.<P>BTW, if WA is too far and Arizona would be a good alternative I'd be happy to plan something here. I have a big house and if the kids were gone for a few days you'd all be welcome!<P>allison

Hey Jo and Mary,<BR>Arizona in the winter time sounds better than Gig Harbor! Maybe we need to be the summer retreat, and allison can be the winter one. <BR>Lora

I agree Lora! I think we should go to Allison's place.<P>And New Year's eve sounds like the perfect time. I know I'm gonna need some therapy after the Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays. REALLY so not looking forward to those days. I hope I survive them. I hope we all do.<P>Jo