A quick ?<P>If you are in a Plan B, is it ok for your spouse to know what you are thinking? L_I_L and I are in pretty much Plan B. Did not do it quite like the text book, but we are both well read on the drill. Instead of a Plan B letter, we had a Plan B "date". We had a really great date the other night, and we parted. We talked a lot, and I told her that we can not contnue as we have, any longer, and she agreed. We both agreed that the best times we had since the discovery, were the weeks following our 1st Plan B attempt. I think our biggest mistake was ending Plan B too soon, because we both were hurting from it.<P>Our contact will be limited to seeing each other at church. Church is a relatively new concept to both of us, and it has made an impact on both of us. I guess my question is, can we both post here while in plan B, and does reading each other's posts affect the eventual outcome? Let me have some opinions. I read the posts almost every day, and I think L_I_L does too. Does reading posts, or replying to each others here go against the "No contact" theory?<P>Anyway, let me know. <P>I love my wife, and hope she decides that we should save out marriage. I know being apart and not talking sucks, but we had to do it. <P>SS4N<P>

SS4N,<P>I don't think reading here violates the Plan B, nor does posting here. However, if you mean the real Plan B, then there is to be no contact between you two, that would me no posting to one another.<P>I really does mean no contact, although you both could attend church you really shouldn't sit or talk with each other.<P>SS4N, Plan B is for you to preserve you love for your W, until she decides to leave the OM or you decide to end the marriage. It really isn't for her at all. It is simply to save what love you have left, so that if she should decide to work on the marriage you would still be emotionally capable of doing so.<P>However, it serves another purpose. It does prepare you to handle the end of the marriage. This is a sad but true fact and you may well come to realize while in Plan B that you don't want to preserve it any longer. That will be your choice.<P>The good news is that you will have done all you can do to preserve it. But you cannot do a thing about LIL and her love for the OM. That she has to work out.<P>Read NSR's section on Plan A and B if you have any questions. I hope this does help LIL decide to try and continue the marriage.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

aaa<p>[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited December 12, 2000).]

I am from the school of the eclectic approach! H and I never did plan B, we did plan S for temporary separation. It did us both an amazing amount of good,we grew tremendously. Although many others here may tell you that a separation doesn't give you much chance to really work on the marriage,it does give you time to get it all out of your face for awhile and come back to each other renewed and more appreciative of what you have.That aspect is facilitated if you DO have contact and are able to start having rational,calm, meaningful discussions when you occasionally come back together and then move apart again for additional reflection. I am convinced that my marriage would not be as strong as it is today if H and I had not had a brief separation(2 months.<P>Congratulations on finding your way back to church! That is the thing (each of us building our relationship with God)that has moved us the farthest in a consistently positive direction. No matter how bad things may seem,with God it is definitely possible to heal the marriage and fashion it into one that is better and stronger than before. God bless your efforts and do what works best for you and your wife.<P>Oh, and just another important point......OW was totally out of the picture when our "separation" was going on.Had she not been it would have definitely been Plan B all the way for me.<p>[This message has been edited by mthrrhbard (edited September 28, 2000).]

Yes...<P>I heard my name batted around...<P>The posts mentioned earlier can be found at...<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000176.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000177.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101 (2nd ed.)</A>!<P>OK...<BR>...the issue of "purity" of "Plan B"...<BR>...and for that matter... "Plan A"...<P>Any Plan you use has to be as "black and white" as possible.<BR>It makes it much simpler for the confused WS to figure it out... <B><I>eventually</I></B>!<P>When you try to do a mixed-style of Plan B... with a dash of Plan A...<BR>...the goal of neither is achieved!!!<P>Plan A... says <B>meet</B> as many (emotional) needs as possible<BR>Plan B... say meet as few (none if possible) needs as possible<P>Plan A... says provide "protection" for your spouse<BR>Plan B... says provide "protection" for you<P>Plan A... says grow in your "giver"<BR>Plan B... says grow in your "independence" (not necessarily "taker")<P>When you mix the mechanics of the 2 plans...<BR>...you are sending mixed messages...<P>...in general... some form of "having your cake... and eating it too!"... <P>If you can't go to Plan B...<BR>...stick with Plan A!<P>If you can't stick with Plan A...<BR>...<B>consider</B> how to do a Plan B...<BR>...and gradually work out the logistics.<P>Swings between Plan A... to Plan B... back to Plan A... back to Plan B...<BR>...are confusing to everyone...<BR>...and unless you're doing the Wiener-Davis 180-"thing"...<BR>...you will end up making your WS stir crazy...<BR>...and make them think <B>you're</B> the one that's nuts.<P>There is a reason for "<B>C</B>" in <B>PTC</B>!<P>-------<BR>yes... I do follow "by the book" more than most here...<BR>...but I can see the rationalization for keeping Plan A and Plan B separate!<P> <P>Jim

Plan B is not a “couples thing” you do together. It’s something you do yourself.<P>If you are both in Plan B, then NEITHER of you will give in and it’s a stalemate.<P>No contact. Plan B is to prepare you for divorce & to show the other what it is like without you at all in your life.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Thanks to all that replied....<P>I understand the purity of "Plan A/Plan B" My wife is also very knowlegeable of what they are. I guess I SHOULD have said we are in a hybrid or Plan US. Basically I am Plan B'ing, but church has been the one thing to bring us together a little, and if L_I_L will continue to attend, I will sit with her. We are not calling, talking, seeing, emailing, etc.<P>I know what the Plan B letter is. So does L_I_L. Instead of writing it all down, I told her 2 days in advance that Monday would be our last contact. We had a very nice date. We have not seen each other since. She knew that the sweet evening WAS our Plan B letter.<P>SweetPea....I understand plan B is for when you can no longer bear the pain, etc...don't want to lose the love..... I hate to admit it, but I know I can live just fine without L_I_L if that is what she chooses. I was devastated when this all started, and I do not like the situation, but I will be just fine without her if she so chooses. I am no longer petrified of what my life alone would be like, because I KNOW I will not be alone long if I choose not to be. I still love my wife, and want her back, but begging and crying and sitting home sad isn't going to get it.....so we are doing a sort of Plan B.<P>JL......<P>As much as I love my wife, I also have myself to think about. I know this violates the wait...and wait....and wait....and wait....strategy on MB, but I have placed a deadline on my time to wait. My wife is going home in 3.5 weeks....when she gets back, OM is gone, or I am gone. I know that the purists here are cringing, but I have had my dignity assaulted long enough. I am a much stronger person then I was, thanks to plan A, but each individual and affair is different. I will still love my wife, even if she can't break with the OM, BUT I will leave. Not sure what that says about me, but I know I can find happiness again, if I must.<P>HB......<P>We are in similar boats. A big difference is my wife has had her own apartment for 3.5 months, and we have no children.<P>Mother.....<P>I know what you mean. We are doing what we can. Occasional talks are important to me. I know it violates the basic Plan B, but then, I am not thinking quite the standard way at the moment. Oddly enough, I have been much calmer and happier since I decided that no matter how much love I have, I CAN leave and it won't kill me. It isn't what I want, but I am prepared to do so if it comes to it. I think the fact that we never had kids makes it easier to walk away, if it comes down to it.<P>NSR....<P>You da man!!!! In a more perfect world, I too, would have the patience of Job, and the disipline to follow through. Thanks for being a good example of the purist!<P>Chris......<P>WE ARE in Plan B (sort of) L_I_L knows what plan B is, just as well as I do. I initiated it, but it affects both. That is what I meant by "we" are in Plan B.<P>Now that I have thoroughly confused y'all.....<P>In summary.....I guess I have reached the limit of what I will accept. Everyone is different. Everyone reacts differently. My intense anguish is over. I WANT the marriage to work, but so far all the work has come from one person....ME! I am strong, I am ready to either plunge 150% into saving this marriage, or I am ready to walk away. L_I_L is a big girl. She can take care of herself if she needs to. If we divorce I will miss her, but I will get on with my life. I have faith she will make the choice to save us.<P>I guess I am not cut from the same cloth as most of the people on this board. It doesn't mean I love my wife any less, because anybody that knows me KNOWS I love her more than anything. <P>I will try to answer individually next time, but I just got home from pulling a 13 hour shift. Hope this wasn't TOO incoherent.<P>SS4N

SS4N,<P>You said one thing that is very wrong; very very wrong. You said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I guess I am not cut from the same cloth as most of the people on this board. It doesn't mean I love my wife any less, because anybody that knows me KNOWS I love her more than anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are definitely cut from the right cloth. You have done your best to restore the marriage. You have done it in the face of your W continuing to tell you she loves you but doesn't want to hurt OM, because she loves him. You have changed, you have started to attend church and turn to God for help. You have forgiven her.<P>SS4N, there isn't much else to do. Your time scale may be different from some here, but the time scale is relative to what you preceive the situation to be.<P>Quite frankly, you have endured longer than I probably would have in the same situation. I have great admiration for you. So don't get down on yourself. The MB program is really two pronged, it is to save the marriage first and foremost, but it is also to prepare the betrayed to leave the marriage if the WS won't change their mind.<P>It sounds like you are now prepared and LIL won't change her mind.<P>I have just one request. Keep posting and let people here know how you are doing, no matter what LIL does decide to do.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

aaa<p>[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited December 12, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just Learning:<BR><B>It sounds like you are now prepared and LIL won't change her mind.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wasn't going to jump on this thread simply because we are, for the most part, in Plan B. I have to pipe in here with my two cents, though, because I don't appreciate other people telling me or my H what I will or won't do. <P>I am so appreciative of all the understanding, support, love, and friendship that both SS4N and myself have received on this board. But what we have posted up until now is really just scratching the surface of our situation. We can generalize to make a long story short, so to speak, but there is so much more to our marriage, so much more to all of us, than we can possibly convey on here. <P>The only person in this forum who KNOWS me is my husband. Granted, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and people will draw their own conclusions based on what they have read here. But what we (as partners in marriage) and/or I will do is our decision. <P>I didn't say anything about what I will or won't do. I thought this forum was for support regardless of the state of your marriage. Why do I get the feeling that once you mention Plan B, you are sort of funneled into the divorce category?<P>Sometimes I find myself coming here to read the posts every day, and then I will stay away for days at a time. Some of what I have read from others has been very enlightening, encouraging and helpful, while other times I read and read and read and just get more depressed. SS4N has told me he feels this way, too.<P>I'll agree that according to MB, Plan B means absolutely NO contact.... but there's no law that says a "modified" Plan B won't work. Besides, I figure (and SS4N agrees) that going to church, no matter WHAT we're "supposed" to be doing, can NEVER be wrong. Our marriage began with our wedding in church, and hopefully the closeness we feel at church now will bring us back to one another.<P>Besides - SS4N and I have never really done anything the "conventional" way.... why start now?? <P>Sorry to get off on a tangent here. I know I will probably get flamed for some of what I wrote, but I won't take anything back. I agree that anyone is entitled to post their opinion on what we have done or what we are doing, but nobody save myself can say what I will or won't do.<P>(I'm a New Yorker born and bred... guess I still have some of that "attitude". ) <P>lost_in_love

LIL,<P>Perhaps you would have preferred if I had made it two sentences. <B> I sounds as if you are prepared. It sounds as if LIL won't change her mind. </B> Does that help?<P>I hope so. I am reflecting on what I am reading and interpretting. I didn't say you will or won't change your mind. I said "It sounds as if..."<P>Frankly, LIL, I would be delighted to hear that you have decided to commit to working on your marriage and leaving OM a distant memory. Even more importantly SS4N, would be delirious if that were to happen. The posts here (certainly in my case) have not been against you. They have been a discussion of the situation as we see/hear it and the real prospectives for SS4N's and your future.<P>You two control that future. You more than he. You get to make the first choice (or no choice), then he gets to make a choice. It sounds from his posts he is ready to make his choice. For that I am happy as is HB, because there must be a resolution of the situation. <P>However, you hold all of the cards LIL. You must play them or withdraw from the game.<P>As for going to church together, I believe that is great. It is not the standard Plan B and people here have reminded SS4N of that, but no one is going down to SC and make you or him do a "pure" Plan B. Just didn't want him to expect the same results as the traditional Plan B might produce.<P>So now that you are posting how are you doing? Well I hope.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

aaa<p>[This message has been edited by Hurting Badly (edited December 12, 2000).]

JL, HB....<P>Thanks for the support. I realize I am not doing it by the book, right now, but I will say that though it was hard, Plan A DID make me a stronger better person. Had to assess what my weaknesses were and work on them. It just makes me an even more desirable partner, hopefully for L_I_L, but if not, SOME girl out there is gonna be real lucky in the future! Plan A really does boost your confidence when you start to realize that it isn't all your fault, that you are a good person. And that confidence shows, when people that you work with start to notice the change. It took a few months, but I know that everything is going to be all right, one way or the other.<P>Of course, my PREFERENCE is to live the rest of my years on Earth and beyond with L_I_L as my wife! I feel like a team of horses, chomping at the bit....my energy level has skyrocketed the last week or so. Kind of like I feel after being sick and cooped in the house with the flu for a week or so. Has anyone ever noticed this when they finally found peace in their action plans?<P>Anyway, thanks for the replies, all! (L_I_L too!)<P>SS4N

Plan B is not a "Family Plan." It is for the betrayed spouse, NOT the betraying spouse.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris (CA123):<BR><B>Plan B is not a "Family Plan." It is for the betrayed spouse, NOT the betraying spouse.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If a couple chooses to use Plan B as such, then I guess it IS a "Family Plan" for them.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>f a couple chooses to use Plan B as such, then I guess it IS a "Family Plan" for them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><B>????</B><P>What exactly is it suppose to accomplish? They both don't talk to each other until they get divorced? Great "plan."<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Chris....I think you misunderstood....<P>I am in Plan B. (sort of) Only contact is if I see my wife in church. I could not hope to shock her with Plan B, because she knows what Plan B is. Therefor, when I say WE are in Plan B, I mean I ionitiated Plan B.<P>What more can I do????<P><BR>SS4N

SS4N<P>Please don't feel like you have to defend your decisions to anyone here.None of this stuff is written in stone by the hand of God like the Ten Commandments. You know that you have thought all this through and have come up with what is best for YOU and that is what matters the most.Trust in the Lord and you can't go wrong,seek His will in all of your actions and you'll be the best off that way. Hang in there and God bless you.

Maybe the problem is that when people refer to "Plan B" it should mean the real Plan B that Dr. Harley has laid out.<P>Technically, SS4N and LIL - you are NOT in "Plan B" at all - you are using another concept completely. From what you are describing, you are using "controlled separation" which is another technique/concept designed to save marriages. <P>I think the only thing that Chris and others here are looking to do is clarify to you and any other readers that the Harley Plan B is very specific in both its intent and its practice. And it is NOT what you are doing.<P>That is not to say that what you are doing is wrong in any way whatsoever - there ARE other concepts and techniques out there that have very high rates of success. The bottom line is that if you are both working toward saving the marriage, you are doing the right thing. And I commend you both for that!<P>A quick note to NSR: Just to clarify Weiner-Davis's "180" approach - that approach must be consistent as well. It is not all that much different from the Plan A/Plan B combination, just that it isn't laid out for you. Designed and carried out with the help of an SBT oriented counselor, the 180 and the related "Last Resort" technique are VERY effective.<P>Just my little "peace-keeping" effort <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Oh ... one more thing...<P>To go back to the original question: No, it is <B>not</B> ok for your spouse to know what you are thinking if you are in a true Plan B. That is part of what makes Plan B effective - the lack of communication and contact - the creation of the "vacuum" where you used to be.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>