<BR>Well, I guess I finally got what I wanted. After 4 months of fairly good Plan A I broke one of my cardinal rules and talked to my WS about "the relationship".<P>I've always known this was not the thing to do, but I got carried away, I guess. I'm sorry now. H had on and off affair with OW for five years now and it recently had been off for about 6 weeks and started up again this weekend. We are separated.<P>Anyway, the jist of the talk was that (close your eye's...you've seen this before) "I love you, but I'm not in love with you". But he wants to stay married (for what I don't know).<P>He claims that he is enjoying having women stroke his ego and he wants to continue to do that even if we should get back togther.<BR>Said he'll come back home in two weeks if I'll let him. I don't think so!!!<P>He has said that the problem with us is that he doesn't get the attention he needs from me (ego the other women). My question is does anyone think that I can meet his needs for attention enough that he won't need other women or is it too late. He seems to think its too late and although he is willing to try, I'm not sure that it would be worth the effort.<P>I told him at the rate we are going, I will probably be filing for a divorce. I can tell he doesn't believe I will do it...not sure myself...but I getting very tired.<P>I can't do a Plan B because we own a business together. If I walk out it will probably die....and I hate to see that happen. Don't know what to do.<P>Faye<P>

Faye-<BR>I don't really know what to tell you. Just wanted to let you know that someone is listening.<P>If he comes home and he still has other women stroking his ego, what exactly will that mean?<P>Is he willing to have no contact with his OW? I didn't realize until tonight that this has been going on for you on and off for 5 years. <P>What do you want?

Faye,<P>Just got in. Hope you're oaky.<P>If your H isn't willing to explore a marriage recovery with you but doesn't want a divorce ... just what the H*ll does Cake Man want??? <rhetorical><P>He's one very unhappy and confused man, you know that right Faye? So much so that he's handing you the decision .... you know he doesn't love her, you know it. All he's getting from her is GOOD FEELINGS (and they're fleeting), if he didn't have you to fall back on he'd have to stick with her and those GOOD FEELINGS would evaporate in a heart beat. <P>You feel stuck, I know, I've been there. Damned if you leave and damned if you don't. So I have to ask you this .... what do you want Faye??? What do YOU want? <P>You can't have him and don't want him how he is now. He's not going to make any decisions until he is ready and he's not ready. In order for him to be ready, Hon, he's going to have to suffer loosing you or realize you are not going to let this affect you anymore. Without you in the mix, there will no longer be a mess to feed on. <P>If you love him, and I know how much you do, then do what's best for him, allow him to realize what he's going to loose. As for Plan B, that's such a hard one to tackle becuz you two work together, but I get so worried knowing this could go on indefinitley ... it's already been long enough. <P>How about prayer right now until I can think this out a bit more. <P>For now, I wish you could just wrap him up and place him somewhere in your mind where it's safe. Tuck him and his mess away in your mind and say "hi" to Faye again. At least then you could start living and feeling some happiness without his craziness always there. Do you think you can do that Faye?<P>You know I know what you're going thru, you know I've been there and I was there for a very long time. I even attempted suicide because I saw no way out. I was determined to leave not becuz I hated anyone but because I couldn't take the hurt anymore. <P>But here I am ... and I even laugh and enjoy myself sometimes .... you were pretty strong there for a while, you had a grip on what you needed to do. And you're such an insightful and loving woman, why not love you and be good to you by not allowing your H control your life and your happiness. It's his bloody life and he will not be ready until HE'S ready. It's his deal and it has nothing to do with you. Five years is so long Faye. Why doesn't Faye get to be happy???? She certainly deserves it, you agree???<P>I'm sorry Faye, you know I care about you. I'd put my arms around you and hug you if I were there. I want you to get strong and ignore him and all his stupid mindless mistakes. I'm going to pray very hard tonight for you. I want you to pray too and ask for strength, wisdom and patience. <P>I don't know if I've helped any, but you do know I understand this whole thing all too well. It's a crazy way to live your life and you don;t deserve it.<P>Much love and concern,<P>Jo

I want to say something else, I don't know about this Tough Love stuff, but if you could just make him see that your OKAY with no longer participating in this, then, and only then maybe he'll feel your loss, and then you have the leverage to tell him you won't go forward with recovery unless he agrees to counseling and no contact.<P>I just really feel so strong that if you removed yourself from the situation all the dynamics would change with him and OW. He wouldn't be able to stand life without you, I say this becuz I realize how wonderful you are and I only know you thru MB. I'm sure you're his rock and touchstone, Faye. Believe in yourself and love yourself. I do.<P>Love,<BR>Jo

Can't stay away from this thread.<P>I was reading some more and thinking about your H wanting to come home but informing you he likes the attention he's getting from Women. <P>He really is sad, he has an absolutely wonderful wife at home that loves him enough to stand by him thru this yet he chooses to degrade the marriage relationship and seek shallow and unfulfilling admiration from women who mean nothing to him.<P>He is really hurting to have to go that far to make himself feel good. <P>I don't know Faye, I don't think you can fullfill that EN of admiration because I think it is distorted right now. It sounds too over the top, like an addiction, a feel good fix, ya know?<P>You can certainly try if you want him to come home, but I'm afraid he'll disppoint you. I believe if anyone person could fulfill his need of admiration it would be you, but like I said, I think this need of his is distored and more of an addition than it is a need. There's something underlying there but I can't put my finger on it, maybe it's just part of a MLC and fear of getting old and dying, mortality. What do you think???<P>Jo

Faye,<P>I'm looking for you. Are you there????<P>Jo

Dear Buffy,<P>I read your post and I'm terribly sorry for your predicament. I wish I were as articulate as you so I could say just the right thing to help you just now.<P>I don't think you broke a cardinal rule. I think you just refreshed his memory, "Hello, I'm your wife, what's the deal?"<P>There is nothing wrong with you doing this, I hope it made you feel better to ask since it's been so long since you have communicated with him, Geez, what does he expect you to do? Hang out indefinitely, waiting on him to come back?<P>As fas as the outcome, I certainly can't say what I think, b/c I don't know what to say. All I can say to you is that I'm sorry you are in pain and feeling so confused.<P>I'm thinking about you and I care, wish I had the answers, if someone did, I guess we wouldn't have these problems.<P>Take care, I'll be reading your replies.<P>Cathy<P>BTW, if you need a mental diversion from your problem, I posted about the new letter H wrote to OW, read it if you feel up to it.<P>Good night!!!

Dear Buffy,<P>I am very sad and shocked at the predicament you find yourself in. You have a high level of tolerance, and sometimes it is a double-edged sword.<P>Loving your H for five years despite what he is doing to the marriage takes a lot of strength and forgiveness. But I worry that your H has taken you for granted - and that could be why he finds that he doesn't feel that you can stroke his ego nor does he find he can soar on your admiration. It is extremely sad but many men get sloppy with the married woman at home or the long time steady girlfriend. They feel these domesticated and conquered women must really worship the ground they walk on - it is a given.<P>It is a horrible trait to possess but many men do find attention from a new woman or in your case, attention from another woman other than the wife, invigorating. It charges their feeble self esteem. But I know of cases where the wife is ever cynical, you have to keep winning my admiration type of person, and the wife keeps herself in smashing top condition, the H is usually very challenged by the realtionship. These examples are generalisations of certain types of realtionships. As for your case, I feel that you H feels very desirable when other women goes for him DESPITE he being married - it could be a fantasy thing, a glut for attention or just taking advantage of a very loving and tolerant wife.<P>If you were my relative, I would say LOVE YOURSELF FIRST, then can you love others in a healthy way. When you begin to treasure your life and the preciousness of your special identity, you will care for yourself and nurture the gifts that you have. Once you really love and like yourself, you gradually understand how you treat others and how you ought to be treated - with mutual respect.<P>I hope I said something that might help, and I sincerely hope you try your utmost to answer your situation objectively. If your post were someone else's, what would be your reply? I have always admired your very level headed replies to other posts.<P>God Bless and Loves You<BR>weep

Well, it seems you and I have H's who have suffered from some type of deep self-esteem blow!! <P>Perhaps some MLifey type of questions for them that are stirring up the unresolved issues???<P>It's a tough situation. For me, I found that detaching from the situation emotionally has helped trememdously. I think you are pretty much doing that as well.<P>This is going on INSIDE of HIM. When my H said he had been "wandering around in the darkness of our marraige a long time"... I wanted to say he had been wandering around in the darkness of himself for a long time.<P>But I didn't. This is something he has to figure out for himself, or NOT.<P>My oldest two go to a wonderful counselor. I have a preteen daughter who is parrallelling her dad's behavior. I am treating them both the same.<P>Matter of fact. Unconditional love, but I have my boundaries!!!! My H is just like a teenager right now. And he is allowing OW to prop up his flailing ego via his professional persona. It is actually gross.<P>I have always disliked that type of man, and so has he!! But, I realize that right now, this is the only thing that is keeping him above the severe depression. I have my boundaries... but keep them fluid for the kids and he has been so much better with the kids, that I am just truly thankful for that.<P>I just know that I can't help him with this. He has to do it on his own. I can only be there for him if he wakes up. In the meantime, it is my life too, and I'm going t live it. <P>Is your H is counseling for these issues??? I wonder if you can steer him to some self help books regarding building up his self esteem so he doesn't need outside sources.<P>And yes, you can do it. But remember this is like a "drug" habit. He is just needing a new "mirror" or "drug" to prop him up. If he doesn't deal with the underlying problems you or she won't be enough!!!!

Hi Everybody:<P>Thanks for your help. I’m still pretty much at a lost as to what to do. Had a pretty hard<BR>night. All the ways I can think of to handle this are based on working with a reasonable<BR>thinking person such I....not on reasoning with a crazy person. <P>Having said that, I must admit that even some of his rambling does make sense. Our<BR>marriage has not been a real marriage in a long time...mostly his fault but also mine.<BR>At first he concentrated on working so hard that he left most of our life to my arrangement<BR>and I learned to manage quite well on my own. But that made me very strong and I didn’t<BR>need him as much....neither did I need the reaffirmation that he does....so I just existed in<BR>my own little world (me and the kids) and left him out to dry. Well, he’s not strong<BR>emotionally, very out of contact with himself and others, and needs constant bolstering to<BR>keep going....while I am self-motivated. So I guess I gave him what I needed and that<BR>wasn’t enough. So now he’s found it in other women and he doesn’t want to let it go.<P>Here’s my quandary. I don’t think I can live with him and him have other women on the<BR>side, so I either have to let him reach a point where he decides for himself that that is not what he wants or I have to move on. I am going to give this some more time to think about it. Your replies have given me somethings to think about.<P>God bless all of you.<P>Jo--<P>Thank God you’re here. I think you above all know what this feels like. I’ve always felt like this thing with OW would end and I would have another chance to repair the<BR>marriage, but this week kinda took away that feeling and I’m kinda lost now. I know the<BR>OW is going to disappear in a while (he said so himself). He also said she had been<BR>sleeping around on him, but he doesn’t care because he loves her and it’s hard for him to<BR>let go of things he loves. I think it’s the stroking he’s afraid to lose. <P>This thing about stroking his ego apparently happened Thursday Night when some floozy<BR>at the VFW put the make on him in front of OW, and she threw a fit. I think he liked that and since we had been having an ongoing conversation all week, he decided to throw that in to the mix. He does this all the time to other people, I should have recognized it when he did it to me. The deeper he gets into this scene the more he says things like that.<P>Yes, it has been five years, but during that time he’s been home and not with her even on<BR>the side for 90 percent of the time. I know it is a MLC due to his bad health (he thinks he only has a few years left to live...and he could be right) and I guess I can understand wanting to spend those years enjoying what you really like. The difference is in what we would consider important in those last few years....me, it would be home and family, him, apparently it’s having his ego stroked. Sad.<P> <BR>Along your idea of letting him have the realization that things would be different without me to be his touchstone, I am thinking about telling him that I realize I have made mistakes in the marriage and am willing to work on those mistakes, but that he has implied that he is unwilling to work on the marriage (although that is not really what he said....he said he would work on it but he still wanted women on the side...but I going to consider that as the same thing), so I am go to begin the process of moving on. That places the ball in his corner (kinda like an Plan B). Then I will begin to make effort to do just that. This<BR>won’t be an idle threat. What do you think?<P><BR>Catplay--<P>I have been reading some of your posts to others and I think you have a lot to offer. <BR>There is nothing like the many years of experience like you and I have in marriage to make you learn tolerance and patience. <P>Yes, I think you do have to every once and a while remind them that you are alive and not<BR>going so well. One of the things H said to me yesterday was that he thought I was<BR>enjoying being alone and doing my own thing. Talk about coloring things the way you want to see them!!!<P>Like I told Jo, we sane reasonable people have no avenue to go down when dealing with<BR>crazy people....except to wait and see if they will straighten themselves out. Some, like your H, are trying, some, like mine, are reveling in it.<P>I’ll be reading the final letter your H did. Did you send it yet. I read that you were going to send it yesterday or Thursday....sorry, this week is a blur.<P>Put me in your prayers if you will, because I need all the help I can get.<P><BR>Weep-<P>It’s very insightful for you to mention a H who has such low self esteem that he has a hard time living up to his idea of his wife’s expectations. I say his idea because my H always felt like I expected more of him then I did. I think he expected more of himself and transferred that to me. I’ve never been a wife who nags, or a wants, I just been willing to make the most of what life gives...not sit back and blame life for what I don’t have. H blames life, me or fate for everything. I will say that being the product of a school teacher and a college professor, I do have high expectations of others and of myself. My<BR>kids always say they don’t need for me to say anything....they know how I feel....and their deep respect for me makes them do what is right. H does the opposite.<P>Oh, Weep, I do love myself...I think I’m a wonderful person and so does everyone else<BR>except H. I just afraid he has decided he can never measure up and has gone to get his ego stroked somewhere where he doesn’t have to aim so high....I think this is the reason he chooses such trashy women....he’s picking someone who’s below him in his estimation.<P>It’s unfortunate that the one person you choose to love is the one person who can destroy or weaken that self-love or self-confidence. We certainly need to choose a person to give that power to who is capable of using it well. I don’t think I did and perhaps he didn’t either, although if I did so, it wasn’t a conscious effort.<P>Thanks for your help.<P>TT:<P>Yes, I see parallel in our Hs. Isn’t it amazing that people with such intellect and abilities can at the same time have problems with self-esteem. I quess the two operate<BR>independently of each other. But it will be the lack of self-esteem which will be their<BR>downfall. I wish I could have recognized this earlier...now I think he may be too lost in his own methods of bolstering that ego. <P>I was wondering about the drug thing, too. Now that OW is leaving the picture for a<BR>while, suddenly he is looking around for other women to fill the gap...looking for another source of his drug....the fix is the thing. There’s a world of it out there. That’s what I’m afraid of...that and ADS and STDs. When do you hit bottom with this sort of thing?<P>You are doing so well with this whole thing I don't know how you manage to keep your composure. Give me some of your strength.<P>Having written through this messy today, I realize I feel better. I guess writing it down and getting it out is cathartic after all. That's why we need each other so much.<P>Til we need again, my prayers go with you all.<P>Faye<P>