OK Guys- this is probably going to be long, but please bear with me- I'm feeling very confused and a little desperate.<P>Last week I posted that I felt that we might be making some progress. H said that he had been heading in one direction for several months(divorce), but things between us, mainly communication seemed to be improving so he felt that he might need to reconsider what he wanted to do.<P>He said that he sometimes thought that he needed to remove himself from OWs life to let both of them decide what they wanted.<P>He had been very involved with the kids, we had been having some really meaningful conversations. He apologized several times for little things. He actually looked at me when he talked. He called or came over every day. He started again giving a hug and kiss goodbye. He asked about my day and gave input. He told me about his day and asked for advice.<P>About Thursday of this past week, he started to withdraw again. By Saturday, I could have sworn that this was the man of several months ago- distant, withdrawn, short with me and the kids, not talking much at all, looking right past me when he did talk, etc. <P>This morning, he showed up unannounced. We were on our way out the door to visit my grandmother. son asked if he would come back later so he could shoot his BB gun. H told him that he didn't know if he would be around later and if he wanted to shoot, he would have to do it right then. I explained that we had already made plans and had to leave then. H had a strange look on his face and told me that he knew I could take care of the kids, neither the kids or I needed him. This scared me and I told him it did. He said no reason to be scared. I did LB pretty badly at this point, asking him what was wrong, what happened. He said nothing and that I just needed to take care of me and not worry about him. After a little more of me LB trying to get him to tell me what was wrong and him telling me nothing, we left.<P>H came back this afternoon. Seemed a little better, but as he was leaving, said that I needed to find out what to do to get his name off the deed and mortgage to the house. I asked why and he said it would be to my benefit. I pressed a little more, and he said what if something happened to him or there was a lawsuit or something, I could lose the house and it wouldn't even have anything to do with me. WHAT??? What is he talking about?<P>I asked him in a previous conversation if ever felt suicidal. We talked about it- he told me no and I believe him.<P>So, what is this? He also told me tonight that he knows that when he gets like this, he lashes out at everyone and I'm the most likely to feel most of it. He said that this has nothing to do with me- he's angry at himself. Now, I know from previous "funks", it usually has something to do with OW. EA continues, they are waiting for her to leave her H, which she has been "about to do" for about 4 months. I do think that telephone conversations have increased in the last couple of weeks. The way it is set up now is that she calls him. She will not talk from her home phone because she thinks that her H is recording calls. She no longer has a cell phone. So, he has to wait for her to call him- he has no way to get in touch with her. This has created huge problems for them. Also, her inability to leave her H has created problems also.<P>So, what do you think? Is it withdrawal, could he be suicidal? Homicidal? Just screwed up? He just told me last week that if either of them ended their relationship, the other one would accept it and move on. What's the deal????????

The way that your husband is talking, I would be very, very concerned for him. I have no idea what you can do for him, but do your best to try to keep the communication lines open. I would be scared, too.<P>I have been through a suicide attempt, believe me, it doesn't always take a "building up-to" in the thought process. Sometimes, all it takes is that one last straw, and then all of the sudden, in a panic, one thinks "What purpose do I even serve--I would be better off dead, so I won't have to suffer any longer and no one will have to put up with me." <P>Some people just keep their emotions under wraps, trying to hold their head up and denying that they are letting anything bother them. They think they are being brave. They tell themselves over and over that they don't "need to talk about it, that is just a cop-out." What they are doing is making themselves sick--one day, it all comes to a big, emotional explosion. And something tragic may happen.<P>The way that your husband is acting is very strange, the questions he is posing are indeed frightening.<P>In my opinion, if you were to ask him if he was thinking of suicide, he would deny it, most definately. But he is hurting inside, deeply and horribly, over something. What, I wouldn't know. Turmoil over his girlfriend? Guilt over what he has done to his family? Does he miss you and realize what he has done to you, but can't get over it?<P>Just let him know that you are there to talk to him if he needs to talk, and gently affirm that he is important to you and your children, that you need him. Don't let him get away with saying crazy stuff to you like what he said, but don't interrogate him. It will probably scare him away if you did that. It will make him feel smaller and more helpless than he does already. Just, like I said, make sure that he knows how important he is in spite of all that is happened. Tell him that you are here for him. Tell him that you need him.<P>That is the best that I can say. Like I said, I have been through this, it is difficult and frightening.

Cloudy,<BR>I don't have much experiance with suicide, but to me it sounded more like he was going to make a move with OW. Like tell her H or they have been found out by her H. Why the big secret from her H? What is she supposed to be waiting for? Is it financial or are they affraid he will sue or do a restraining order or turn voilent? <BR>Lora

I don't know a lot of details here. According to my H, OWs H is verbally abusive pretty frequently and has been physically abusive at least once a long time ago. OW says she will never tell her H about the A because he would tell her kids what she has done and try to turn them against her, try to get custody of them, be very resentful and difficult during the divorce and generally would try to make her life a living hell.<P>There are financial reasons also- OW is a stay at home mom and apparently has never worked. If she and my H were together, she would have to work. He cannot support her and her kids.<P>I think part of the conflict is that intellectually they know that their relationship could never work long term in the real world, but the feelings are there and are strong, so they don't see how they can survive without each other either.<P>I have wondered if he is planning on telling her H what is going on to force a decision one way or the other. If this is what he is thinking, that could explain his recent behavior, since it appears that her H has the potential to become violent and no one knows where that might be directed.<P> And I know that he will not make any commitment to me or our marriage until their relationship is over. Due to the amount of time that he has been spending with me and some of the changes that I've seen in him, it wouldn't surprise me if she is getting possessive and jealous. He may have even verbalized to her some of the indecision and confusion that he has told me he is feeling. He has told me that he is tired of sneaking and lieing and wants a normal life and a normal relationship. I am pretty sure that she will not leave her H without being very sure of a continued relationship with my H.<P>I also think that he has been thinking about ending it with her. He may have done that, or tried to do that. Or, she may have ended it. He has told me several times that he does not see her leaving her H any time soon if at all.

Hi Cloudy:<P>Just wanted to add my voice to those who think that something with OW is in the wind. Wondering if OW's H has ever been physically violent...seems like that is what H is preparing for. The implication is that he has expressed his concerns about the viability of his and OW's relationship with her H in the picture and she has decided to end it with her H. <P>He apparently is conflicted about whether this is what he wants at all, but since he has made the commitment then it will probably proceed...at least I would expect it to. If he really is vasilating then perhaps she can see the writing on the wall and will stay where she is. My feeling is that she will do it, just to keep them together for a little bit longer. <P>What's important is not what OW is doing...what's important is that H's doubts about the relationship has probably caused this...and OW is shoring up the relationship with the only thing she can offer...the breakup of her marriage for her lover. Will it be enough...who knows? Probably not in the long run. <P>The fog is clearing, however, and probably nothing OW can do will stop it. But she'll try, so hang on...and let us know what happens.<P>Faye <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited October 03, 2000).]

Well, I have a little more info, but not much. Apparently, H talked to her on Friday and they had a fight about something. H said he was a real jerk and a smart a$$, though gave no further details. I gather that he does not know if she will call again and he cannot contact her. Those are her rules and H doesn't say anything about that, but I know him well enough to know that he has to REALLY hate that- she has control over when and if they communicate.<P>So, I guess most of what I was seeing is/was withdrawal. If I could just learn to stop pushing for info when he doesn't feel like talking, we would both be better off. He will eventually tell me about it, but it needs to be when he's ready. Why do I keep doing that? I know that I shouldn't be pushing the whole time I'm doing it, but just can't seem to stop??? I've done pretty well with stopping other LB, but can't seem to get a handle on this one.<P>Anyway, he still seems depressed (probably means no contact!), but back to his more normal self and hasn't said anything else that seemed strange.<P>I also know that they had a big fight about 2 weeks ago. She apparently tried to call him on his cell phone all day on a Saturday. He was mad at her because she didn't call on Friday like she was supposed to, so he purposefully didn't answer the phone. He was here most of the day and didn't talk to her until Sunday. They got in a fight, she hung up on him (this is BIG pet peeve of Hs) and they didn't talk again for several days. Is this normal or common during an A? I always thought that affairs were blissfully happy without real life problems, so there were few disagreements?

Cloudy,<P>Looks to me (and I hate to give anyone false hope) like you have hung in there long enough to see the outcome of almost all of these affairs...the falling apart stage. Yep, it's happening and your husband is going to be a bigger mess than before. Withdrawl is huge and awful...he now has to see what an [censored] he's been, how many people he has hurt, and in the cold light of day, what a regular person the ow is, with faults just like everyone else.<P>I hope his withdrawl is short...I hope ow's husband does not find out about this, it's enough of a mess as things are. <P>Yeah, you stuck in there long enough to see her love bust away, while you stayed supportive, just like you were supposed to. He wants to spend time with you and the kids, and you know he was getting closer. This is something I'm familiar with. H and I got really close over the summer, and he pulled back again big time. I hope, for you and I, that it's part of the roller coaster. It scares them to start to "see" us again, because then they have to admit that they've made a huge mistake.<P>Let it play itself out with you on the sidelines. Remember, you did not cause this problem...you cannot solve it. Don't worry about asking H too much, you are obviously worried about his mental condition right now, which is a loving way to be IMHO.<P>Be there for him, be his friend. If I'm right about what's happening, he's going to need you, and need some time for himself to figure this all out. His mind is racing right now about which way to go. He is more confused than ever because he has to face this right now.<P>I hope I don't sound preachy, or know-it-all like...but it does seem to be the pattern here. The experienced ones predict it over and over again. Give him space, try not to worry too much about him, you've got to let him hit rock bottom before he can see the light of day.<P>allison

Bernzini-<BR>Thanks for your input. I am still concerned that he may be contemplating suicide, but not as concerned as I was. I have let him know that we do need him and that I am here for him if he needs me. I will continue to keep an eye on him.<P>Lora-<BR>I agree with you. Though I have wondered about my H telling her H what is going on, the more I think about that, the more unlikely it seems. She is so afraid of her H, that I can't see my H ever telling him. She is convinced that if her H ever finds out, he will do everything he can to keep her from having a continued relationship with her kids.<P>Buffy-<BR>I get real stuck trying to figure out how they think they can have a continued relationship without her H knowing about it. She apparently has "decided" to end it with her H several times, but something always happens. I don't know details about what thoses things are, but my H seems to find them pretty stupid. He hints a lot about feeling that she will never leave, maybe he is getting closer to actually believing it?<P>Allison-<BR>How are things with your H? From your recent posts, it sounds like you are doing well, but I haven't read anything lately about the ole H.<BR>I too am trying not to have false hope. I think they are both LBing all over the place. How long does this falling apart stage take? I'm ready!<BR>You know, one of the strange things that always seems to follow one of his "funks" is that he always does something that seems to make the separation a little more permanent. This past weekend, he bought a used washer and dryer and hooked it up in his house. He also got a kitchen table and chairs from his mother. The last time he was in one of his "funks", he cleaned up his shop here at this house, piled stuff for the junk man to come get, and piled other stuff to take to his house (it's still here). It's almost like every time he feels that his relationship with her is rocky, he has the need to separate himself more from me. I think part of this is because he has been telling me that his relationship with her has nothing to do with the problems we are having. Yeah right! <BR>

Hi Cloudy,<P>I know it's been said many times here on these boards, but I honestly think we are married to the same man!<P>My H even calls his down time "funks"...always has. Funny, isn't it, that they have to call their roller coasters such a cute little name. I always hated it when he said he was in a "funk".<P>No one knows how long this will take. You want it to take some time, because it will be more permanent if it plays itself all the way out. I am just guessing here, but from what I've seen here on these boards it's pretty common. My H also draws away when he feels himself getting close. Don't worry too much about what he is buying for his apartment...it's his way of declaring independence, like a teenager.<P>Go on with your life, don't obsess too much about what he is doing. He has to wake up all by himself. Someone on another forum likened this to sitting on a curb wathcing their spouse fly by on a motorcycle...not a thing you can do but let them fly by. One of the times around the block maybe the fog will lift long enough for them to get it. Personally, I wish my H would crash his motorcycle and get a massive brain injury...not really...<P>Cloudy, you are doing great. Have you thought about coming to Arizona in January? I'd sure like to have you come. Give it some thought...and hang in there. It's gonna get worse before it gets better...sorry, but it seems like thats the way it goes. This takes a lot of time, progress is so slow. <P>I'll keep you in my prayers.<P>allison

OK-<BR>Strangeness continues....<BR>Didn't talk to H at all yesterday- the first day we haven't at least talked on the phone since he moved out. H called just a few minutes after I got home from work. He was in a good mood. Asked if I wanted to come to his house for a while. I told him that I couldn't cuz of the kids. He said he had thought about that and if it was OK with me, he would see if my step-daughter (lived with us for last 10 years, moved in with her Mother about 7 months ago) would come spend the night here so I could get away for a while. So, I seem to have a spend the night babysitter and plans to go visit H at his house. I've only been there 2 times and the 1st time was when he took me and the kids to see the house before he moved in.<BR>So....who knows?????

Wow Cloudy...<P>Sounds good...love to log on and see good develoments like this.<P>Have a wonderful time, and keep us updated. You're in my prayers.<P>allison