<B>Some truths: or more ramblings of the madwoman...</B><P>I am wallowing today...I even took a 'sick' day...<P>I played with my 4-yr old alot...I now know more than I ever thought I would about designing a racetrack...as well as what 'cool' things nascar racers can do...lol<P>and I have taken some time to travel down the 'memory lane' that the past year has formed...YIKES!!!!!!<P> <P>let's see...there were those downs...then those ups...then those downs....then further down....then up....then deepest downs...then pretty 'stable'...then down.....the up......the usual...you know...<P>I have had moments of....great epiphanies..of great clarity...of great regret and deepest pain...unbelievable rage that has stunned me...of hurt that has held me...happiness too...joy in spots, even...but mostly, I have had the most intensive inner-searching and emotionally exhausting journey within myself that I could ever imagine...<P>a year ago, the rug that was my world, that contained within its weave all that I knew to be true and hold close and believe in, was pulled from under my proverbial feet...<P>I have spent a year trying to regain some equilibrium after my fall....<P>peppermint once asked "is it recovery or survival?"....Darlin, for some, its one, for some, the other...<P>I stand before you a survivor...nothing more...and in that, there is no shame...<P>and now begins the glimpse into the inner being that shapes Dylan...and the part for which you need the patience of Job...<P>I am uncomfortable about being intimate with this man I call husband...intimate on the important, soul-nourishing levels....as peppermint brought up, I have erected a wall that he cannot climb, nor walk around, nor scale...it is of my own making..I readily admit it...<P>some parts of me just feel 'shut down'...as if a sign hung on me saying 'temporarily out of order' would not be innappropriate...<P>Like Kathi, on her recovery thread, I too have been of '2 minds' (should I stay, or should I go?)...and have been since the beginning....<P>that is of course, a major part of the problem....by not 'committing', I leave an 'exit door' open... a safety valve, of sorts...<P>and also like 'ohmyMarie', I despair of living with and loving a man I no longer respect or admire....the "I don't love him the same way" whine....but how can I?...of course I can't....duuuuuhh!!!.. love is indeed changable, but can I be in love with someone who has perpetrated one of the worst offences of my life to my life...to our lives?<P>I don't think I have ever been 100% open or truly 'meself' with Deut...I have always been 'on guard' of sorts...the first time we dated, 15 years ago, there was a serious amount of damage done to and alot of hurt felt by a young 18 yr. insecure girl when our relationship ended...<I>formulative</I> hurt, I am talking about...our relationship ended due to "Tina" all those years ago....I could not be with someone who respected me and our relationship so little...even if the betrayer of my trust was a 17 year old kid excited by life and teenage hormones......we then spent a decade apart...<P>cheating has been Deuts exit move...in almost every relationship he has ever had....he has cheated to end it....or cheated and not cared whether it ended...whatever....it is his pattern....or was...even this time, he cheated because he thought I didn't love him, wasn't in love with him, he knew I was unhappy and could no longer take seeing me this miserable (caused by him, he figured) and so allowed himself to get caught up and at the same time, give me the perfect excuse to end it with him....<P>I don't think I have ever been comfortable being 'intimate' with this man...<P>During that decade spent apart, I was emotionally devastated to find after over a year together that my then-fiance was a serial cheater (anything and everything, including underage, handicapped girls)...and to everyone in the small town where we lived, <B>I</B> was the idiot because he was so obviously an [censored] that I must be blind or stupid....(until this past year, I have always thought I was just blind....I'm wondering...)....after my test for herpes came back positive, Mr. man was kicked to the curb...<P>apart from that debacle, there were 3 other 'major' relationships that bit the dust due to infidelity....<P>I think I'm getting a complex.... <P>I have never been unfaithful...emotionally or physically...to anyone....even as a teen...<P>Recovery is difficult for me, I believe, because due to the formative emotional devastations I have endured at the hands of unfaithfulness, it is against every moral and ethical fibre in my body to share my life ...my soul...my body..my trust..my hopes..my dreams..my truths...my ideals, my very essence itself, with someone who would allow ego to win over personal ethics and morals...<P>Deut states that he will never do this again that he will never allow out marriage to ever again reach the depths of neglect that it did...he saw and felt my pain...he says he will never cross that line again...<P>but see.....once upon a time, he said he would never do it in the first place...and yet....he did....<P>what comfort is to be taken in the words of a liar??....what solace is there in the truth of it all being that you live with a liar.....and that trust will never be the same...<P>am I now living with a really great liar??...or the more frightening thought...am I now living with a greatly <B>improved</B> liar?....I once believed all his crap..whose to say he isn't spouting new crap??....how much of my own misery has been dictated by my own stupidity, blindness, trust, naiviete and bone-headed refusal to 'let go' of those relationships that damage my very soul and psyche???????<P>Infidelity has been scarring me for 15 years...it all started with Deut....its as if I've come full circle...<P>I once posted here that 'leaving is easy...staying is hard'....I wonder.....<P>maybe its just that I have never been brave enough to leave....<P>especially when it was past time to do so......<P>of course, I cannot honestly say I've been brave enough to fully commit to staying, either......<P>I can't say that I've put 100% into any of it...I give up in the blink of an eye....for awhile there, I was packing my bags (mentally) weekly....why was I constantly looking for the 'straw' for that camels poor, tired back???<P>I love Deut.<BR>I have loved him for 15 years.<BR>I just do.<P>am I in love with him?<BR>by my own personal, inner, soul-definition of 'in love'?....no.<P>I want to be...and with no one else...I dream of being in love with this man...<P>but see again...I admitted that I was no longer in love with him once....he went out and used it as justification for a 4 month long sexual escapade...hence my hesitation at being open and honest with a man who has done this...<P>I want to be in love.<BR>I want to be in love with Deut.<BR>I just don't know how yet.<P>I have alot of questions still, alot of processing to do...still many things to sort out...<P>this is not just about Deut and our marriage anymore..the past year has shown me that much of my pain has to do about <B>me</B>.<P>Schizzo has such a great point...the marriage overall, I would give it a 7 ( which is great as pre-affair, it was -547...lol)....but the me....I give it a 2..on a good day...my emotional and mental health is out the window...<P>I alternate between reaching out and retreating back...the only motivation I can guess at, is fear...of so many things...<P>I have discovered that too, in the past year...my new found fears, my self-destructions...I live in a state of 'waiting to exhale'....<P>I have decided that upon the 1st anniversary of d-day, I shall declare the past year <I><B>SURVIVED</I></B><P>there is no mad rush to yell 'HEALED AND RECOVERED' from our home...<P>it may take years, according to many many experts...years...::shudder::<P>SO BE IT.<P>I am not waiting for a miracle pill...but I am willing to acknowledge that this may be awhile in the making...<P>I am re-evaluating almost every aspect of myself, of Deut, our relationship, our marriage, our communications, our livestogether....considering what hangs in the balance, the more healed I get, the better....<P>Deut's exit move is cheating.....I think mine is apathy....<P>so.....I hereby declare the first day after d-day as the official start date of our re-building...(how can I throw in the towel and say I've failed, if I've never really tried)..we survived a year, now lets rebuild and recover for the next....we have the tools, we have the desire, and we have the fear of the alternative....but most importantly, I believe we have the love...we truly do..that's what makes our lives so sad...we truly have the love....<P>now the trying begins....<P>I invite you to hold my hand, as this forum becomes the medium for my journal...starting tomorrow....<P>for the remainder of tonight, I will remember that a year ago tonight, Deut hurt me in ways I still can't verbalise...he destroyed parts of me...he lied....and I will be thankful that this has led me to try to discover who the hell I really am, what shapes, motivates and scares me, what I have coursing through me, what I am capable of, and mostly, thankful for making me look up "I am woman" by Helen Reddy at napster.... <P>one thing I can say about this particular anniversary:<P>I am so unbelievably fuc$ing glad that I will never have to re-live that particular year ever again....it is over...<P>next chapter.......<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

I should have at least included a quote from the darned song <P>"yes, I am wise, but its wisdom born of pain<BR>yes, I've paid a price, oh but look how much I've gained...if I have to I can face anything...I am strong...I am invincible....I am woman..."

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Dylan}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Wow...lots of thinking going on! You know, I think you are getting somewhere with all this (tho I bet it feels like you are pretty mired).<P>I am still coming to terms with the fact that my H lied and carried on an emotional relationship with someone else. But, I am also coming to terms with the fact that I had "cheated" our relationship by not being fully honest and open with him, letting things wither to the poing that he didn't feel I loved him.<P>The tough thing is coming to acceptance of the fact that we are all flawed, all liars & cheaters in one way or another at some time in our lives. Accepting that and being willing to risk being truly intimate with someone anyway...it is scary. But, it is what I want...sounds like you do too.<P>I hope that this year of rebuilding is a great one for you Dylan...<P>Kathi<P>

Dylan,<P>I only have a second right now...<P>You know I love both you and Deut very much...<P>I have seen with mine own eyes the immence feelings of love and respect he has for you...<P>I truly believe you are <B>his</B> hero...<P>Keep on walking...<P>Use this forum as a medium to explore your feelings and as place for him to see them...<P>A building block of sorts for that intimacy you desire...<P>Conquere you fear of letting him in, I truly believe he desperatly wants in...<P>You can do this...<P>You both can...<P>Spend theo monet for counceling with Jennifer Harley-Chalmers or Steve Harley...<P>Your sanity depends on it...<P>The love of your husband depends on it...<P>Well I have to go...<P>Love you both very Much,<P>Bill

Dylan,<P>What a great post! You express yourselff very well. You have experienced a lot of pain, but I see hope in there too. I see the start of a healing process. Healing of not just the external stuff of your relationship, but the internal stuff, the stuff you carry into your relationship. I think that's wonderful!<P>Good luck to you and Deut at the start of this new journey, this rebuilding. I think you'll make it. Like you said, you have the love. I think once you get that emotional health rating up to the same level as the rating you gave your marriage, that wall you've erected will be nothing but a small pilie of dust. Emotional health is a wonderful thing.

Dylan,<BR>The temptation to not give one's all, and wait for the "out" has put you in the same kind of limbo that WS "fence sitters" find themselves in. And, I think, though it isn't a place to stay, sometimes it is necessary for evaluation, decision-making & healing.<P>I may have become more cynical these past couple of years, but I don't think a *perfect* mate is out there for any of us, yet at the same time the *perfect* mate is the one whose strength matches our weakness and our strength their weakness.<P>Research & anecdotal-looking-around show we find the same type of person over and over.<P>I look at my husband now after all this time of pain--and I was as guilty of dealing some of it as he was--and I see someone I will gladly grow old with. I don't expect a smooth road--we're both too stubborn & strong-willed. But would I be content with someone who was weak and deferred to me? I don't think so. At this time my H's actions line up with his words, and his words are that he make the right choices, be faithful and his goal is for me to be happy.<P>And, yes, I've heard that from him before the affair and during. I hope this is the time it is true, but what I know is I'm glad to be with him right now. Today. I no longer bleed from the wounds, nor drag the past baggage. I concentrate on not worrying about tomorrow. Today is what is important. Today we are together, working together. We've chosen each other all over again. Today is good and I have no regrets about where I am. There is regret and mourning of the past, but not one detail of the past will ever change--whether I know the truth of it or not.<P>The wall is understandable. I had the wall. But I also know that part of my heart belongs to my H, always did, no matter how dead my feelings toward him felt. Part of that everlasting love is the time we've been together and the children, but part of it is simply an unreasoning love for my husband. I choose to love him.<P>Just as we couldn't live together for awhile and separated many times, we kept coming back together. We are not happy or complete apart. We are re-learning what makes us happy together.<P>I no longer think of myself as destroyed or damaged--and certainly for awhile I felt as if a floor sander and been run over every inch of my skin then plowed completely through my chest.<P>You can get through the pain, the betrayal, the fear of the future. You can.<P>If your marriage & family with Deut is what you want, set your goals & discard anything that does not lead to a better marriage.<P>We're here to help.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

perhaps...one day...you can change your user name to ...."soulfound" I hope it happens for you.

Soulloss,<P>I just wanted to say thank you for sharing such a beautiful part of yourself. In a funny way it gave me hope...that I can see how others got through this. It's only been five months for me, and I will always know the pain...but you and others here give me hope that someday it will turn into just a dull ache.<P>I look forward to reading more installments of your journal. I think it's an excellent idea...maybe more of us should start to do the same. It seems people just post when something "big" happens in their lives, and we miss the inner journey they're going through. Is this forum just for questions...I don't think so anymore. I learned more from your post than I have learned from most of the questions I see posted here.<P>You are a wonderful writer, gifted...I hope you keep these entries and do something wonderful with them someday. Thank you for sharing yourself with us.<P>allison

Good morning Beautiful,<P>Well, two cups of coffee and a new pair of glasses later, all I can say is this:<P>You are the most open-hearted, open-minded, completely together person I know! <P>I know, I know... you'll tell me that because you aren't "in love" by your definition that you aren't "together" or maybe that because you didn't sail through d-day anniversary you aren't "together".... oh NO, my dear Dylan... instead you used that lovely head of yours and made a place of comfort... you are wise beyond words. <P>Remember other words in the song: "You can bend but never break me, 'cause it only serves to make me, more determined to achieve my final goal..."<P>That's you, Dylan... bent, but not broken.<P>Have a lovely Friday!

Dylan,<BR>I think I could read the things you write all day long, the way you express yourself is truly beautiful. I wish I could say that "in love" is easy. To tell the truth that feeling is fleeting, never ever able to sustain. You mentioned the alternative... to leave, to end this... I just want to point out that you will always be faced with the big possibility of meeting another person who will lie to you and hurt you. It seems like it is the thing to do nowdays. Just by the way you have expressed yourself I doubt very much if you would or could spend the rest of your life alone with your wall no matter how high it is. <BR>You say you have love and you are together.... that is a lot. To me that would be enough to get back in the boat and start rowing in the same direction. To someday look back on this and at the very least will be able to say you grew a little. Finish the race, you will be happy in the end.... I feel it...<BR>Michael

That was beautifully written, and you've echoed the sentiment of many of us here. But a friend of mine said something very wise about my (our) situation(s) - when we have these trials in our lives, look at it like this - only the test of fire makes fine steel. A dear, dear sweet friend of mine whom I've known for years said to me, "why? Why does this keep happening to you? You are such a wonderful person, why couldn't it have been me?" I replied, "Because darlin', you couldn't handle it." I have not met one weak person on this forum - but Dylan, you are one of the stronger ones! We've all been confronted by a crisis, but instead of tucking our tails between our legs and running, we're trying to confront the problems and work through them. That takes strength. Remember that.

soulloss:<P>Very beautifully written!!!! Your journey has come along way and it still has along ways to go.<P>Thanks for sharing,<P>Judy

Dylan,<P>i too have been betrayed many times, abused as a child...<P>i have spent much of this year pushing my fence-sitting h to know if he will truly be here for me.<P>i have felt so alone, so powerless, so much naked pain. My inner being is fragmented, disconnected, my emotions are very close to the surface. i am thankful i do not have to hold down a job right now, don't think i could.<P>i too have survived, and i've helped move h off the fence.<P>But i'm seeing that living by the "rules" is only a start. H has offered several times to move out, says if i'm so miserable, wouldn't i be happier without him?<P>He finally begins to see, i'll be unhappy either way. There are things i must resolve, there's not much he can do...<P>I started counselling for the first time in my life. He asked several times as i went over my history, the abuse, etc., and you've never been to any counselling? i've survived all my life.<P>Now, for the first time, i believe real healing is something i can DO. Seems to be a bad word around here, but i've learned that i'm seriously codependent and i believe my h confuses sex and love (a sexual addiction)?<P>i'm going through an excellent workbook,"Untangling Relationships" by Pat Springle. It has been a real eye opener. i'm joining a group of betrayed women who are working through the book. i am really seeing a light at the end of the tunnel.<P>i am comfortable with not recommiting to my h. i still need a good reason to trust him.<P>Like me, he has his patterns from his past that he must deal with. He needs to deal with the root of his relating to women and we both need to deal with our unhealthy patterns of relating - him as controlling, selfish, me as enabling by my sense of powerlessness, my overpowering desire to always please...to the point i lost myself.<P>These are all patterns i brought to the marriage that are harmful, i was cinderella and he my prince...<P>i have never been this forthright in a post, but this is where i'm at. i hope it helps some and would also appreciate your input back...<p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited October 06, 2000).]

Hi Dylan,<P>Ramblings AND truths. Both from a woman driven by infidelity to some level of madness perhaps. But finding many others in the same place.<P>How appropriate to take a sick day and to spend it playing with the ONE person you will always be able to count on, your son. And to take the day to assess the past year and plan for the next.<P>I absolutely know the ups and downs, the insights and regrets, the rage and pain, the moments of happiness and joy. The times of being so certain that staying together is right, yet the times in the middle of the night when you just want to run as far away from this monster as you can without EVER looking back.<P>I know about having the world fall out from under you, and flailing about in midair trying to find a secure foothold again. On August 16, I discovered that that the foothold I had found was just an illusion and it too crumbled away.<P>Dylan, I THOUGHT, really thought, that we were recovering in the past year. WE were not, but I was. I discovered a strength within that I never knew existed. I found a spiritual connection that I had let weaken over the years.<P>Looking back over the past year, I wonder how I could have thought that the pain, confusion, and anger I felt was marital recovery. I knew that it still hurt SO VERY BADLY, but this site told me that it DID hurt and would continue to hurt for a very long time. I thought we were in RECOVERY and that even recovery was pretty crappy. Of course, I didn't know what was really happening in my own marriage- that firestorm felt entitled to have his "special best friend", and that he resented ME because I wouldn't let him have his "special best friend". And that he eventually decided that if I was going to continue to punish him and be a witch ANYWAY, he might as well take comfort with his "special best friend". Because after all, what peppermint doesn't know WILL HURT HER, but she's already so hurt and damaged anyway that it makes HIS life unpleasant and he wants an escape and all he cares about, really, is himself. BUT I DIGRESS!<P>SO, a reassessment is in order. I was recovering, our marriage was not. But during the last part of "the affair that would not die", the other woman started acting possessive and jealous, and even started threatening to tell me about the rekindling of their flame. Hmmm, I think Lori would call that lovebusting. And when her husband found out about the affair, she started trying to save her own butt by blaming firestorm for EVERYTHING except global warming. More lovebusting. Now she is threatening him with a lawsuit because she claims he offered to buy her a house in exchange for sex and has reneged on his promise. LOVEBUSTING COMPLETE!! FOG CLEARED!<BR>But, no promises of smooth sailing ahead.<P>So, I recovered and our marriage barely survived. So we have to decide whether we want to begin again. Firestorm says yes, I say maybe. We agree to really try for a year, until our youngest can get settled into college. Here we go.......<P>THIS TIME: I am completely comfortable with sex but I wasn't the first time. The wall has become a fence, the split-rail kind (you can get over or through it, but you are guaranteed some splinters). The parts that had shut down are now just on pause. I know that I am going to stay, but firestorm will have to go if he can't or won't repair the damage and protect us from this happening again. I am taking Steve Harley's advice to find little things about firestorm that I CAN respect, admire, love, and trust. And I am taking into account that if our marriage ends, the odds are overwhelming that I will either never find a permanent, stable relationship

or that if I do, it too will be destroyed by infidelity. This time, I am the one not being completely open, because to do so exposes yourself 100% to the possiblity of this kind of hurt again. This time I will not trust firestorm to completely love and protect me, I will love and protect myself.<P>The history of your past relationships is very telling, I think, as to why you have never been completely open to Deut this time. I suspect it is the same kind of attempt at self-protection I just mentioned. Didn't work, did it? My attempt might not either, but I have to try, at least for now.<P>Firestorm is my only serious relationship, so this is my first real encounter with infidelity except the fact that my father was unfaithful to my mother. I only really realized that as an adult when my parents divorced after 35 years of marriage. Your experiences prove that there is no "getting used to it". How can anyone ever adjust themselves to accepting this horror?<P>Like Deut, firestorm promises that he will never do this again, that he could never cause me this much pain again, etc., etc., etc. Like Deut, he said ALL of that before and broke every single one of those promises again. Heck, if I had recorded all of his crap last year, I could have just played it back this time. He does SEEM more serious this time, but already I see some slipping back to behaviors he promised to change. We'll see.<P>Firestorm has been a lying cheat. I hope that he will not always be so, but I am waiting for time to prove whether it can change. He was not so good at lying before the affair, when it restarted he bacame an expert at it. Each day I live with the possibility that he might just be even better at it now. Time WILL tell.<P>Dylan, I still think leaving is the easier of the two choices. There are nights when I long for the solace of being alone without having to look across the dinner table or the bed without seeing the face of the man who crushed my heart and soul so horribly. But I love him, and I have for 25 years, 1 month, and 9 days (so far). That's not going to change. And I KNOW that he loves me, as much as it is possible for a damaged, imperfect person to love another. Are we "in love"? Absolutely, but not in that fresh, unscarred, perfect kind of way that we were before infidelity entered our universe. We never will be again. But a year is long enough to mourn the loss of one kind of love when there are so many other wonderful kinds to experience.<P>I'm not ready to give a numerical rating to our marriage yet, but my mental health is finally getting as good as it's going to. And I'm no longer reaching out and pulling back. I'm going with firestorm's flow. AND, I am not counting on EVER being able to declare myself healed and recovered. That is a process that will take longer than I care to think about at this moment.<P>Steve Harley is encouraging us to consider this process as building a completely new marriage, one where we avoid the mistakes and missteps of the first. It sounds like a good idea, a clean slate and a fresh start. Again I say, we'll see.<P>No matter what happens, there is a future for us both. So let's agree to remember the past, but accept that THE PAST DOES NOT CONTROL THE FUTURE UNLESS WE LET IT. We are strong, maybe not invinceable, but strong. And let's face the next chapter with cautious optimism instead of fear and dread. Let's leave the old baggage behind and assemble a whole new shiny matched set filled with things that make us happy. AND we'll let Deut and firestorm carry all of it for us, at least on the first leg of this journey!<P>I absolutely agree that I am so happy to never have to relive the past year. So, on to the next chapter. IT HAS TO BE BETTER THAN THE LAST.<P>See you on our travels,<P>Peppermint<P>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{DYLAN}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

happy morning one and all...<P>so sorry for the time it has taken me to respond to this thread...but time for the computer is dwindling...and there never seems to be enough time for the lengths of my posts...LOL.....<P><B>Kathi</B><BR>always LOTS of thinking....it may be my ultimate downfall...thinking is great..when it does not interfere with the <I>doing</I>...<P>I too have come to terms with the fact that our marriage was in a horrible state of disrepair and that I had a large part in that...<P><B>Bill</B><BR>you my friend, are a continuing wonderful presence in our lives...I hope you know how much you are loved by us over here! It is a hard road we travel...thank you for taking the time to walk alongside of me for parts of my journey...<P>I am <B>his</B> hero?????...I think you may need to clarify or expound on that...I don't 'get' it...how? why?...<P>you are right we CAN do this...today, we ARE doing this....yesterday we DID do this....day by day, my friend....<P>my sanity depnds on me 'groundig' myself and finding some answers I need...but those come from within...something that Deut cannot do for me...<P>shoot....just looked at the clock...gotta go to work...I'll have to finish the rest of this novel tonight....<P>have a great day everybody!!<P>Dylan

ok.....so my clock was a little 'off'....and my 'babysitter' for my 3 hr shift today is not available.....sigh....do I bring a 4.5 yr old on a 3 hr motel-room chemical-filled cleaning shift, or not go in when the money will feed us??...Argh!!!!!<P>anyhoo......back to my responses while I have 15 minutes....<P><B>Truthseeker</B><BR>I have to admit something to you...for almost a year, I have lurked on almost all your posts...there is such a depth to them...your self-questioning at times, has mirrored mine...you have unknowingly helped me...not from a marriage aspect, but rather from the 'me' aspect...especially a few months back on the "why women leave men' board...<P>much of your inner journey to seek your own truth has inspired mine...<P>as to the healing process you saw within my post...I feel you are right...I believe now that the 'external stuff' has a big enough band-aid on it to 'hold' for awhile, while some of the NECESSARY TO MY SURVIVAL inner healing process must now begin....then, once my inne foundation is once again solid, I can return to the external and do a permanant re-surfacing job and throw away the band-aid!<P>you also commented on::<BR><B>"the stuff you carry into your relationships"</B><P>EXACTLY!!!!<P>and boy have both Deut and i brought stuff with us!!<P>I have to explore this......nothing will change or improve until I do this...for me first, then for my relationship...<P><B>Lor</B><BR>you are one of my triple goddesses of marriage...up on a pedestal along with Lori and HGBrawner...they who have done and taken what I could not have....<P>and your insight...concisely putting into words what had only been for me, a rambling incoherent thought process thus far...<P>the limbo you spoke of...the 'fence sitting' analogy...and like you, I believe it <B>is</B> a place I needed/need to be...<P>I don't expect a smooth road to old age with Deut either..for the very same reasons you state regarding Guard and yourself!!...lol<P>Lor, part of my heart does belong to Deut...even with the deadened places inside..yes, there is still a place with him there...it is the re-activation of the dead parts I am now seeking...and you gave me goosebumps with the strength in the words you posted:<BR><B>"...an unreasoning love for my husband...I choose to love him"</B><P>how I understand that sentiment...most people I know look at me 'funny' when I try to explain that.. <P>we too need to re-learn what makes us happy together, as we seem to have gotten it pretty 'wrong' for the past few years...lol<P>I must admit to still feeling damaged...but inner-damage (if that makes any sense to you)...soul-damage...I know I can repair my life and marriage with the will and the work to back up that will....but the inner Dylan needs help first....the rest won't mean a thing without that damage being addressed, understood and repaired.<P><B>lighthouse</B><BR>LOL.....'Soulfound'...or maybe 'Soulfull'...thank you my new friend, I too look forward to that day...<P>

Allison...<BR>your welcome... <P>learning to share these parts of me has not been easy...letting 'strangers' in to the areas of damage when I have trouble even letting in my spouse has in fact, been a journey all of its own...but this place is a haven of sorts for me..and while the anonymity is loved, I need to 'open up' more...what better way??<P>Allison, the pain really <B>does</B> dissipate...the 'barbs' loosen their hold on your flesh, and the agony does release its hold on your thought processes and 'visual' centers....the 'pit' gets replaced with a shallower hole and the 'dull ache' is indeed an almmost welcome change....yes, Allison, it really does turn into a dull ache and sit down for this....but it gets even weaker than a dull ache....no, really...for some, it's true... <P>posting only at milestones or in times of despair is what I was generally guilty of...I always said I would journal through this pain...but there is never enough time, it's too late, I'm too tired...whatever excuse...I haven't, and it has left me disappointed in myself...this way, I have to...I've told all of you I would...<P>no more (well, ok, less) procrastination...<P>the inner journey for some of us, <B>CANNOT</B> be pushed aside...not even in the name of a marriage...but not all have such an inner journey to complete...or to even contemplate...this is smethig I NEED to do...for me...<P><B>Sheryl</B>:<P> "" And I come back even stronger, not a novice any longer..'cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul...<P>I am woman, watch me grow...see me standing toe to toe as I spread my loving arms across the land...but I'm still an embryo with a long long way to go""<P>ps: 'bent'???...I'm 'bent'??!?...ROTFLMAO...<P><B>MKN</B><BR>It seems that all I've ever attracted in my life are those who lie and hurt me...LOL..I am some sort of magnet...lol...<P>you are right...we have love and we are together...yes, that is in fact more than aloat to start off with....I do indeed realize this everydy...a blessing, in many ways...that is exactly why I can and must give a little more of myself and my time to healing "me"..<P>as to your boat analogy, Michael...we're in the boat..we are even rowing with the same 'island' goal in both our sights...and Deut and I have been rowing...it just seems that it gets difficult what with my 'broken' arm and Deut getting distracted with bailing the occasional leaks...<P>but we are still in the boat.. ....I just need to fix my arm before I can row 110%<P><B>Carolina Belle</B><P>"because, Darlin' you couldn't handle it"<P>LOL<P>I LOVE your sense of humour....<P>the few comments I did hear from my few friends were all along the lines that they were glad it didn't happen to them, or that I should just leave...or worse...nothing constructive, no support...NOT ONE really cared or was interested enough to listen...<P>as you can imagine, I 'lost' most of my real life friends during the past year...I selfishly decided to 'clean house' and surround myself instead with loving, caring people in my life, but since there is an apparently appalling lack of those in my real life, I come here to my REAL friends instead...<P>and no, I am <B>not</B> one of the strong ones...you made me laugh with that...if only you knew...if only you could see how very weak I truly am...if I were truly strong, I think that the emotional devastation would not have taken such a strong internal hold of my very soul...<P>but I am here to <B>learn</B> strength...to wallow in the strength of others and grasp at the little bits I can glean...<P><B>Bighope</B><P>thank you Judy...<P>Schizzo.....Cindy....my written response and theories to you is 5 handwritten pages long...I WILL return to post these thoughts...but if I spend any more time here right now....my 4 yr. old may leave home...due to neglect...LOL...I also want to read your most recent october post to see what I can add...as if 5 pages wasn't enough!!!<P>Dylan<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

ok....so I called work, told my boss I would have to bring the little one...she told me not to bother coming...sigh.....<P>so......Cindy......I need a cup of tea for this one...be right back......<P>ah...thank goodness for Earl Grey...lol<P>I'm right with you on the 'pushing' them issue..to see if they would truly be here...and be the H's we need them to be in order for us to stay...an ongoing test of sorts that we keep pulling out of the proverbial hat...<P>and a resounding yes as well to the feeling of your inner being fragmenting...or like in your october post...2 personalities that don't discuss much together...lol..I DO understand this...all the hope in the world in the first part of the day...then despair and hopelessness by the end of the day...truly a rollercoaster...<P>I think of slices of a pie...affair is one...abuse is another..childhood pain another...relationships that 'molded' you yet another slice...pieces of the pie no longer held together by the filling...<P>I must admit to envying you not having to work...it is at times, difficult to carry on...especially with mental and emotional health stagnating or declining at times...It is getting increasingly harder to go on cleaning other peoples' houses, creating for them, a semblance of order in their lives while my own is the very definition of chaos...<P>some days it was harder to function than others..<P>we have to reel in those pieces of pie...<P>you said:<BR><B>"I'll be unhappy either way. There are things I must resolve, there's not much he can do"</B><P>I started crying when I read that....<P>you see, Cindy, I don't think that everyone go through this...this deep of a journey...some simply don't need to to..not everyone on this forum has the need for deep inner healing that some of do...<P>some of us have more 'baggage'...<P>not to say that others' journeys are any less intense or introspective or emotionally driven...just that we are all different...<P>I believe that the marriage, Deut...everything must wait....I need to heal me before it will make an improved difference in my life and marriage...I have this theory about it..but that is a post in and of itself...just let it suffice to say that for some of us, we need to be the priority...our healing must take center stage...or there may well be no hope...we need to 'fix' the broken and damaged parts (many of which may have been damaged long before any actual affair, even...more 'external stuff')...<P>and lke you, I have survived....not much more than that, through most of my life traumas....I started councelling once...in 1994...after a house fire left me traumatized and having panic attacks...I stopped because of fear...and the cost...lol...but fear of the deep emotional, intense pain that welled up from somewhere inside of me...I chickened out....told myself that I had survived worse thus far...and alone...I could do so again...andI did...not well...but a form of survival nonetheless...I have abandonment issues that go back 3 decades, I found out....and couldn't face it...I have NEVER felt like the priority in ANYONES' life..not even in my parents' lives...it has left me a selfish being because if I cannot be the priority elsewhere, I will prioritize myself...but it still leaves one feeling empty..like a shell that should really have more substance...<P>yes, Cindy, healing <B>is</B> something we can DO...<P>I think I am seriously co-dependant.<P>and I think that Deut has serious issues regarding sex/love....and has since he was in his early teens...<P>I'm going to save my pennies and look into that workbook you mentioned...<P>I'm also thinking of starting a group for betrayed women!!lol...<P>I suppose I feel no, that I am guilty of stalling our progress - due to the fact that recommitting is just not as 'easy' as I thought it would/could/should be...he's here, he loves me...so no progress can only be my fault in a way... right??...irregardless of the fact that I feel he has not done much in the area of marital improvement....<P>but I still need a good reason to trust him too....like you...<P>seeing the return of some of our own individual unhealthy patterns during the past yeat has been responsible, I believe for much of my inner despair....sort of a "why the hell can't we just change and stay changed!!!" scream at the universe...lol<P>this is not a 'down' post, however...I just see your points about so very many things...<P>I mean, we have baby steps happening, and for those I am glad and thankful...the willingness to have a great mrriage is there...and I wish Deut could suddenly (as your H seems to have done) change, and be doing and saying all the 'right' things as well...although I, like you would be doubtful of their staying power....<P>but we need to implement...to make those changes HAPPEN..<P><I>I need to externalize, through action, the internal will and desire...</I><P>ah Cindy, I too lost myself...in the overpowerful desire to always please...others...never pleasing myself, but desperately wanting to 'matter'...to be a priority...hence my screen name....<P>but the resentment that gre when I was NOT treated the same way in kind...well..the memory of it shames me now...<P>it was, in retrospect, <B>NOT</B> selfless giving...If I treated as a king, i secretly wished to be treated like a queen... give and take...but I never stated this as a need...just assumed that of course, he would read my mind or see my displeasure and GUESS as to how he could fix it....or I would speak up...but of course, always at the wrong time..when there was no way he could give me 100% attention and be 'hearing' me....<P>I am guilty of self sabotage....<P>DOOOOOOOHHHH......<BR><<insert favorite homer simpson 'doh' face and head-slap here>><P>more later....<P><BR>Dylan<P>